A Baptist View of Free Will

[Dizerner]

will inevitably and naturally go their own way into SIN.

Well, amen.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Man's first instinct is survival.
I honestly cannot think of a situation where the thirsty man would not accept water.
I don't like analogies, first of all. They never seem to work well.

Well, I am a deplorable, wannabe theologian, but my students tell me I am a good teacher (at least an entertaining one), so I love using analogies.
Beyond that, real life scenarios and analogies help us top to avoid going in circles talking abstractions that we could never apply to any real life event, either in our lives or in society.
In addition, Jesus left us precious teachings through stories and analogies.
So please bear with me a little, my brother.

And I don't understand what an outsider looking in has anything to do with salvation.

You're right: salvation is not about observers... it is about God and you, or God and me. But we take the position of observers when we discuss, in an Internet forum, how God saves man or mankind. That's why I included that in my analogy.

IN THEOLOGY FREE WILL simply means to have the capability of CHOOSING between two MORAL OPTIONS.
That's all it means.
We can get into compatibilist free will and libertarian free will but it just messes up the conversation.
Can we stay with my above definition?
This is what free will means in theology.

Sure, Godsgrace... we can stay with that definition.

WHICH settings does God use to attract us to Him?
We might agree.

In principle, God can set all scenarios for all kind of people and circumstances.
For example, being born into a family with loving, emotionally mature parents is one kind of setting… but letting us have a painful chronic disease, or get our heart broken by a girl who was not in love with us can also be an instrument of his love and wisdom.
All loses, failures, can be the source of incredible blessings.
(Those whom I love, I rebuke and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent”, Rev 3:19.)

This is what the bible teaches.

HOW does God plan when we will be saved?
Does He take an active role in the timing?

Perhaps letting us feel He is close when we feel more vulnerable or lost. At least that was my personal experience.

I like the Baha'i. You won't get any problem from me.
And I know you respect Christians as you do all religions.

I appreciate a lot your words, GodGrace. I truly do.

Could you explain this better?
I don't remember this about the Baha'i.

We Baha’i rarely talk about Salvation, as this term is practically absent from the revelation of Bahá’u’lláh.
I am an exception because I adopt a language that can be understood my my Christian brothers, and because I have a Christian background,
We Baha’i talk about forgiveness, about submitting our life to God (which is often referred as detachment)
We believe that we all are submerged in God’s ocean of mercy, whether we understand it or not.
Within His mercy or grace we all develop, in different ways and speeds, so to speak, both in this earth and after our death.
So, for us “salvation” is not thought about as an on/off state, but rather a continuous process.
You will never find a Baha’i asking himself Am I saved? Or Can I lose my salvation?

Calvinists do indeed reject this: They believe that God saves some and damns others and FOR NO REASON AT ALL...
which makes God to be most UNJUST.

I agree.

 

[MTMattie]

but HE did and does WARN people of the inevitable consequences of their choices.

But they do not necessarily listen.

One area of life that people have come to accept yet God warns people away from is the sex run amok mentality from fornication to blatant adultery. From the "girls gone wild mentality" to the Sunday go to meeting crowd of those just basically shacking up. From casual one night stands to those committed to each other except on paper. From first date sleep overs, to date rapes that dont get talked about because they have become expected.

And the worse are the pastors and priests and rabbis who say not a word, for fear of driving congregants away or the loss in the collection plate.

It has become mainstream and main street accepted or at least not openly scoffed at even though we know ... yet

“But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur.” – Revelation 21:8

Is certainly a strong warning that goes unheeded.

 

[MTMattie]

God definitely threatens people.

How?

We biblically are warned, granted. Many if not most do not heed the warnings.

But do you mean the likes of their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur.” – Revelation 21:8 as a threat?
Granted there are many times in the scriptures we are told God hates immorality but then are people not told that they can confess , turn, beg forgiveness and all will be well?

The predestined group believes they are covered. That is why a deacon in a church I knew was all feely touchy with an employee , and had no qualms about "serving Holy Communion" when it was his time.

Sure it is but how many do you know that are on the other side of even trying to explain away the book of Rev? You see it all the time on forums such as this one.

All churches need to get back to preaching hell fire and damnation and get away from telling the congregants they are secure in their eternities.

 

[Dizerner]

How?

Warnings are a form of threat when the danger is from the one who warns.

25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke,
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes, (Prov. 1:25-26 NKJ)

 

[MTMattie]

Warnings are a form of threat when the danger is from the one who warns.

25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke,
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes, (Prov. 1:25-26 NKJ)

You had said.. reply 99.

"God definitely threatens people."

That was what I asked about the How for... I KNOW God warns people. Have had it happen myself.

 

[Dizerner]

That was what I asked about the How for... I KNOW God warns people. Have had it happen myself.

People tend to interpret "threat" as a lack of good will.

So stick with warning, that's fine.

 

[Johann]

You had said.. reply 99.

"God definitely threatens people."

That was what I asked about the How for... I KNOW God warns people. Have had it happen myself.

I think context is Imperative.

“Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke”

"Disdained" (תִּפְרְעוּ, tiphᵊrᵊʿû)

Root: פָּרַע (pāraʿ) – meaning "to let go," "to reject," "to neglect," or "to cast off."
Form: Qal perfect 2nd person plural – indicating a completed action by the audience in rejecting wisdom’s counsel.

Meaning: The verb conveys an intentional and decisive rejection of wisdom’s advice, implying a willful neglect and disregard. The same root appears in Exodus 32:25, where it describes the Israelites running wild (unrestrained) around the golden calf, reinforcing the idea of throwing off restraint.
"Would have none" (לֹא־אָבִיתֶם, lōʾ ʾāvîṯem)

Root: אָבָה (ʾāvāh) – meaning "to be willing," "to consent," or "to accept."
Form: Qal perfect 2nd person plural – again signifying a completed refusal.

Meaning: The phrase lōʾ ʾāvîṯem implies a stubborn unwillingness to accept correction. This verb often carries the nuance of an inner resolve not to heed instruction (cf. Deuteronomy 1:26, where Israel refused to enter the land).
"Rebuke" (תוֹכַחְתִּי, tôḵaḥtî)

Root: תוֹכֵחָה (tôḵēḥāh) – meaning "rebuke," "correction," or "discipline."
Context: This noun conveys the idea of corrective guidance, often given to redirect someone from a wrong path. The rejection of rebuke here indicates an aversion to discipline and wisdom’s attempts to guide them back to the right way.
Verse 26

“I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes.”

"I will laugh" (אֶשְׂחַק, ʾesḥaq)

Root: שָׂחַק (śāḥaq) – meaning "to laugh," "to deride," or "to scoff."
Form: Qal imperfect 1st person singular – indicating an ongoing or future action.

Meaning: This is divine irony. Wisdom personified (cf. Proverbs 1:20-23) will laugh at the downfall of those who rejected correction. This laughter is not one of amusement but of derision (cf. Psalm 2:4, where God laughs at the nations' futile rebellion).
"Calamity" (אֵידְכֶם, ʾêḏᵊḵem)

Root: אֵיד (ʾêḏ) – meaning "ruin," "disaster," or "misfortune."

Meaning: This word often signifies a disastrous, unavoidable fate brought about by one's own actions. It appears in Job 18:12 to describe the calamity awaiting the wicked.
"I will mock" (אֶעְלַג, ʾeʿlag)

Root: לָעַג (lāʿag) – meaning "to mock," "to deride," or "to scorn."
Form: Qal imperfect 1st person singular – again indicating a future or ongoing action.
Meaning: The verb suggests ridicule and contempt. It conveys the idea of scorn toward those who refused wisdom, much like in Psalm 37:13, where the Lord mocks the wicked because He knows their day of reckoning is near.
"When your terror comes" (בְּבוֹא פַחְדְּכֶם, bᵊḇôʾ paḥdᵊḵem)

"When it comes" (בְּבוֹא, bᵊḇôʾ)
Root: בּוֹא (bôʾ) – meaning "to come" or "to arrive."
Form: Qal infinitive construct with preposition בְּ – denoting the time when the event occurs.
"Terror" (פַחַד, paḥaḏ)

Meaning: This noun refers to dread, panic, or sudden fear. It implies an overwhelming and paralyzing fright (cf. Job 15:24, where it describes the terror of the wicked).

Meaning: The phrase emphasizes that terror will come suddenly, leaving the wicked helpless.

Context and Theological Significance
Proverbs 1:20-33 is a passage where wisdom is personified as crying out in the streets, offering instruction to the simple, the scoffers, and the fools. The rejection of wisdom’s call (vv. 24-25) results in the inevitability of judgment (vv. 26-27). The divine response is one of irony—just as the foolish laughed at wisdom’s rebuke, wisdom will now laugh at their downfall. The passage emphasizes that rejecting correction leads to disaster, and when judgment comes, it will be too late to seek wisdom. This aligns with other wisdom literature themes, such as Proverbs 29:1 (“He who is often rebuked and hardens his neck will suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy”).

Thanks @MTMattie.

J.

 

[MTMattie]

I think context is Imperative.

“Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke”

"Disdained" (תִּפְרְעוּ, tiphᵊrᵊʿû)

Root: פָּרַע (pāraʿ) – meaning "to let go," "to reject," "to neglect," or "to cast off."
Form: Qal perfect 2nd person plural – indicating a completed action by the audience in rejecting wisdom’s counsel.

Meaning: The verb conveys an intentional and decisive rejection of wisdom’s advice, implying a willful neglect and disregard. The same root appears in Exodus 32:25, where it describes the Israelites running wild (unrestrained) around the golden calf, reinforcing the idea of throwing off restraint.
"Would have none" (לֹא־אָבִיתֶם, lōʾ ʾāvîṯem)

Root: אָבָה (ʾāvāh) – meaning "to be willing," "to consent," or "to accept."
Form: Qal perfect 2nd person plural – again signifying a completed refusal.

Meaning: The phrase lōʾ ʾāvîṯem implies a stubborn unwillingness to accept correction. This verb often carries the nuance of an inner resolve not to heed instruction (cf. Deuteronomy 1:26, where Israel refused to enter the land).
"Rebuke" (תוֹכַחְתִּי, tôḵaḥtî)

Root: תוֹכֵחָה (tôḵēḥāh) – meaning "rebuke," "correction," or "discipline."
Context: This noun conveys the idea of corrective guidance, often given to redirect someone from a wrong path. The rejection of rebuke here indicates an aversion to discipline and wisdom’s attempts to guide them back to the right way.
Verse 26

“I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes.”

"I will laugh" (אֶשְׂחַק, ʾesḥaq)

Root: שָׂחַק (śāḥaq) – meaning "to laugh," "to deride," or "to scoff."
Form: Qal imperfect 1st person singular – indicating an ongoing or future action.

Meaning: This is divine irony. Wisdom personified (cf. Proverbs 1:20-23) will laugh at the downfall of those who rejected correction. This laughter is not one of amusement but of derision (cf. Psalm 2:4, where God laughs at the nations' futile rebellion).
"Calamity" (אֵידְכֶם, ʾêḏᵊḵem)

Root: אֵיד (ʾêḏ) – meaning "ruin," "disaster," or "misfortune."

Meaning: This word often signifies a disastrous, unavoidable fate brought about by one's own actions. It appears in Job 18:12 to describe the calamity awaiting the wicked.
"I will mock" (אֶעְלַג, ʾeʿlag)

Root: לָעַג (lāʿag) – meaning "to mock," "to deride," or "to scorn."
Form: Qal imperfect 1st person singular – again indicating a future or ongoing action.
Meaning: The verb suggests ridicule and contempt. It conveys the idea of scorn toward those who refused wisdom, much like in Psalm 37:13, where the Lord mocks the wicked because He knows their day of reckoning is near.
"When your terror comes" (בְּבוֹא פַחְדְּכֶם, bᵊḇôʾ paḥdᵊḵem)

"When it comes" (בְּבוֹא, bᵊḇôʾ)
Root: בּוֹא (bôʾ) – meaning "to come" or "to arrive."
Form: Qal infinitive construct with preposition בְּ – denoting the time when the event occurs.
"Terror" (פַחַד, paḥaḏ)

Meaning: This noun refers to dread, panic, or sudden fear. It implies an overwhelming and paralyzing fright (cf. Job 15:24, where it describes the terror of the wicked).

Meaning: The phrase emphasizes that terror will come suddenly, leaving the wicked helpless.

Context and Theological Significance
Proverbs 1:20-33 is a passage where wisdom is personified as crying out in the streets, offering instruction to the simple, the scoffers, and the fools. The rejection of wisdom’s call (vv. 24-25) results in the inevitability of judgment (vv. 26-27). The divine response is one of irony—just as the foolish laughed at wisdom’s rebuke, wisdom will now laugh at their downfall. The passage emphasizes that rejecting correction leads to disaster, and when judgment comes, it will be too late to seek wisdom. This aligns with other wisdom literature themes, such as Proverbs 29:1 (“He who is often rebuked and hardens his neck will suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy”).

Thanks @MTMattie.

J.

Yes, as you phrase this it is a threat(s).

Wonder if this is why the brick and mortar churches have gotten away from preaching hell fire and damnation?

 

[Johann]

Yes, as you phrase this it is a threat(s).

Wonder if this is why the brick and mortar churches have gotten away from preaching hell fire and damnation?

Hellfire and damnation should be part of the gospel @MTMattie.

J.

 

[atpollard]

Yes, as you phrase this it is a threat(s).

Wonder if this is why the brick and mortar churches have gotten away from preaching hell fire and damnation?

Are the "brick and mortar" churches full of unsaved?
Then they need the GOSPEL preached (both HELL and SALVATION).

Are the "brick and mortar" churches full of "Laodiceans"?
Then do they not need a different message? (Rev 3:14-22)

 

[MTMattie]

Hellfire and damnation should be part of the gospel @MTMattie.

J.

Yep, but I have not heard that preached in more the 50 years from the pulpit

 

[Johann]

Yep, but I have not heard that preached in more the 50 years from the pulpit

Some churches do preach it-and they are not very popular, wonder why.

J.

 

[MTMattie]

Are the "brick and mortar" churches full of unsaved?
Then they need the GOSPEL preached (both HELL and SALVATION).

Are the "brick and mortar" churches full of "Laodiceans"?
Then do they not need a different message? (Rev 3:14-22)

Well, now, I would say that depends.

Not all churches preach the same thing.

Yes, most, if not all are Laodiceans.

You Calvin predestined believing churches do like to teach the warm and fuzzy.

The Catholics... do we count them? depends on the priest. One I know is all about week upon week preaching against abortion. ( good for him)
but had some of the congregation really wanting to complain somewhere.

The others... well, you do get a bit of that from the c of C especially when they are on their high horse of telling you you are not saved unless you are immersed. Nothing else will save you.

So... it depends.

 

[Studyman]

Warnings are a form of threat when the danger is from the one who warns.

25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke,
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes, (Prov. 1:25-26 NKJ)

How is this a threat, and not simply a warning about the realities of this life?

 

[TedT]

Warnings are a form of threat when the danger is from the one who warns.

AI Overview

A "threat" is a statement expressing an intention to inflict harm or damage, essentially a direct promise to cause negative consequences, while a "warning" is a cautionary statement alerting someone to a potential danger or risk without necessarily implying an active intent to cause harm; a warning aims to give someone the opportunity to avoid the danger, whereas a threat is meant to intimidate or coerce.

The difference is found in the intention, not the content. A loving parent can indeed warn of a painful response to follow a repeated act without meeting the definition of a threat. The definition is not separated by the painfulness of the response but by the intention of the person warning or threatening.

 

[MTMattie]

AI Overview

A "threat" is a statement expressing an intention to inflict harm or damage, essentially a direct promise to cause negative consequences, while a "warning" is a cautionary statement alerting someone to a potential danger or risk without necessarily implying an active intent to cause harm; a warning aims to give someone the opportunity to avoid the danger, whereas a threat is meant to intimidate or coerce.

The difference is found in the intention, not the content. A loving parent can indeed warn of a painful response to follow a repeated act without meeting the definition of a threat. The definition is not separated by the painfulness of the response but by the intention of the person warning or threatening.

LOL. How did we ever live without AI

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, I am a deplorable, wannabe theologian, but my students tell me I am a good teacher (at least an entertaining one), so I love using analogies.
Beyond that, real life scenarios and analogies help us top to avoid going in circles talking abstractions that we could never apply to any real life event, either in our lives or in society.
In addition, Jesus left us precious teachings through stories and analogies.
So please bear with me a little, my brother

I'm a sister!
Analogies are good with kids and it's so nice to know there's a good teacher out there.
Not an easy job. I've taught our faith to kids (5th to 7th grade) and I might go back to it...not sure.
Jesus used parables for specific reasons.
I think it's easier to just use scripture.
I think all of scripture is applicable to life.

You're right: salvation is not about observers... it is about God and you, or God and me. But we take the position of observers when we discuss, in an Internet forum, how God saves man or mankind. That's why I included that in my analogy.

Sounds good.

Sure, Godsgrace... we can stay with that definition.

Thanks. It really shouldn't be more difficult that that.

In principle, God can set all scenarios for all kind of people and circumstances.

That sounds like Molinism...but I don't think you mean it like that.
But yes, God can do whatever He wants to do...
the question always is: Does He in ever circumstance?

For example, being born into a family with loving, emotionally mature parents is one kind of setting… but letting us have a painful chronic disease, or get our heart broken by a girl who was not in love with us can also be an instrument of his love and wisdom.
All loses, failures, can be the source of incredible blessings.
(Those whom I love, I rebuke and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent”, Rev 3:19.)

I'd go with Romans 8:28....but agreed.

Perhaps letting us feel He is close when we feel more vulnerable or lost. At least that was my personal experience.

I like Romans 1:19-20 where is states that God has known the existance of God from the beginning by the things that He created (the universe).
Agreed that there is a particular time when we notice this OR when we make a decision to acknowledge God and to serve Him.

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

I appreciate a lot your words, GodGrace. I truly do.

We Baha’i rarely talk about Salvation, as this term is practically absent from the revelation of Bahá’u’lláh.
I am an exception because I adopt a language that can be understood my my Christian brothers, and because I have a Christian background,
We Baha’i talk about forgiveness, about submitting our life to God (which is often referred as detachment)

Detachment...good word.
Romans 12:1.2 states the same:
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

We believe that we all are submerged in God’s ocean of mercy, whether we understand it or not.
Within His mercy or grace we all develop, in different ways and speeds, so to speak, both in this earth and after our death.

Our opportunity for salvation ends with our death according to the Christian bible.
Hebrews 9:27
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Matthew 12:35-37
35 "The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.
36 "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."


The bible speaks of a final judgment and it also speaks of damnation for the evil persons.
Revelation states that nothing unclean will enter into heaven.
Rev 20 ?

So, for us “salvation” is not thought about as an on/off state, but rather a continuous process.
You will never find a Baha’i asking himself Am I saved? Or Can I lose my salvation?

This is interesting. I can't remember this at all.
My belief is that those that acknowledge God and live for Him will be with Him
after they die.
Isn't this what makes God a just God?
Just means to give to each person what they deserve.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This is interesting. I can't remember this at all.
My belief is that those that acknowledge God and live for Him will be with Him
after they die.
Isn't this what makes God a just God?
Just means to give to each person what they deserve.

Oh, sister! An apology for not having noticed that.

I believe that God's desire is that the wicked turns from his evil ways (Ezekiel 18:23). This makes God happy, as the parable of the Prodigal Son beautifully depicts. This also fulfills his purpose for men. The "lake of fire" was not prepared as the final destination of men (Mathew 25:41).

Since God is just, he cannot give a punishment that is not proportionate to the opportunities man wasted.
Since God is loving, He will punish not out of sadism, but out of his interest in we learn from the experience, and come to repentance.
Since God is sovereign and supreme, nobody and nothing can frustrate his purpose with mankind. He cannot end up defeated. So, by becoming "all in all", and attaining his enemies to bow their heads to Him (ie, by conquering their hearts) God proves to be victorious.

I suspect, though, that we should not get into the topic of universalism here, as it would correspond to another thread.
I would be more than delighted to discuss this and other topics with you, my sister, if you are interested.

For the time being, let's go back to the topic of free will. Is this OK with you?

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh, sister! An apology for not having noticed that.

I believe that God's desire is that the wicked turns from his evil ways (Ezekiel 18:23). This makes God happy, as the parable of the Prodigal Son beautifully depicts. This also fulfills his purpose for men. The "lake of fire" was not prepared as the final destination of men (Mathew 25:41).

Since God is just, he cannot give a punishment that is not proportionate to the opportunities man wasted.
Since God is loving, He will punish not out of sadism, but out of his interest in we learn from the experience, and come to repentance.
Since God is sovereign and supreme, nobody and nothing can frustrate his purpose with mankind. He cannot end up defeated. So, by becoming "all in all", and attaining his enemies to bow their heads to Him (ie, by conquering their hearts) God proves to be victorious.

I suspect, though, that we should not get into the topic of universalism here, as it would correspond to another thread.
I would be more than delighted to discuss this and other topics with you, my sister, if you are interested.

For the time being, let's go back to the topic of free will. Is this OK with you?

Yes Pancho.
We could discuss free will.
But I'm here because I was closing down my computer...it's almost midnight.
Please post what you will and I'll reply tomorrow morning.
Good night.