A Baptist View of Free Will

[atpollard]

So Atpollard...
what's the difference between the above and what the Reformed/calvinists teach?

There is no difference,,,unless you could point it out of course.

On that point Particular Baptists and the WCF agree. On who should be baptized and why ... we are 100% opposite. The issue is that both Presbyterians (to list one Reformed denomination) and Particular Baptists agree on TULIP ... but REFORMED THEOLOGY is bigger than just TULIP and Baptists are NOT from the Reformation (1400s - 1500's), we are from the late 1600's and spring from a different source (Vernacular Bibles in mass production in English).

I should, in fairness, point out that the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith is only the "Gold Standard" for Particular (TULIP) Baptists like myself. The 2000 Baptist Faith and Message (created to reflect both GENERAL and PARTICULAR Baptists) has no chapter on "Free Will" and states the following about SALVATION and GRACE:

2020 BFM [link]

IV. Salvation​

Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.


A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God’s grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.


Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.


B. Justification is God’s gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.


C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God’s purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person’s life.


D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.


Genesis 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6:2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28:6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14,29; 3:3-21,36; 5:24; 10:9,28-29; 15:1-16; 17:17; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; 17:30-31; 20:32; Romans 1:16-18; 2:4; 3:23-25; 4:3ff.; 5:8-10; 6:1-23; 8:1-18,29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 1:18,30; 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3:1ff.; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; 11:1-12:8,14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:2-23; 1 John 1:6-2:11; Revelation 3:20; 21:1-22:5.

V. God’s Purpose of Grace​

Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God’s sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.


All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.


Genesis 12:1-3; Exodus 19:5-8; 1 Samuel 8:4-7,19-22; Isaiah 5:1-7; Jeremiah 31:31ff.; Matthew 16:18-19; 21:28-45; 24:22,31; 25:34; Luke 1:68-79; 2:29-32; 19:41-44; 24:44-48; John 1:12-14; 3:16; 5:24; 6:44-45,65; 10:27-29; 15:16; 17:6,12,17-18; Acts 20:32; Romans 5:9-10; 8:28-39; 10:12-15; 11:5-7,26-36; 1 Corinthians 1:1-2; 15:24-28; Ephesians 1:4-23; 2:1-10; 3:1-11; Colossians 1:12-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; 2 Timothy 1:12; 2:10,19; Hebrews 11:39–12:2; James 1:12; 1 Peter 1:2-5,13; 2:4-10; 1 John 1:7-9; 2:19; 3:2.

 

[atpollard]

Why not just use the bible??

Funny you should ask that:

“Baptists cherish and defend religious liberty, and deny the right of any secular or religious authority to impose a confession of faith upon a church or body of churches. We honor the principles of soul competency and the priesthood of believers, affirming together both our liberty in Christ and our accountability to each other under the Word of God."​

Committee Report on the submission of the Baptist Faith and Message 2000​

"Baptist churches, associations, and general bodies have adopted confessions of faith as a witness to the world, and as instruments of doctrinal accountability. We are not embarrassed to state before the world that these are doctrines we hold precious and as essential to the Baptist tradition of faith and practice.​

​

As a committee, we have been charged to address the “certain needs” of our own generation. In an age increasingly hostile to Christian truth, our challenge is to express the truth as revealed in Scripture, and to bear witness to Jesus Christ, who is “the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”​

​

The 1963 committee rightly sought to identify and affirm “certain definite doctrines that Baptists believe, cherish, and with which they have been and are now closely identified.” Our living faith is established upon eternal truths. “Thus this generation of Southern Baptists is in historic succession of intent and purpose as it endeavors to state for its time and theological climate those articles of the Christian faith which are most surely held among us.”​

​

It is the purpose of this statement of faith and message to set forth certain teachings which we believe.”​

​

The Confession is not for the CHURCH, it is for the WORLD.
The Church answers to SCRIPTURE and GOD (Father, Son and Spirit) ... individually (what we believe) and collectively ("one another").

 

[atpollard]

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

That is the (T) that makes the (I) of John 6:44 necessary. All you proved is the point of John 3:19-20 and Romans 3:10-12 ... Free Will is to run and HIDE (just like Adam in Genesis 3:8).

• Genesis 3:8 [NLT] When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the man and his wife heard the LORD God walking about in the garden. So they hid from the LORD God among the trees.
• John 3:19-20 [NLT] And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.
• John 6:44 [NLT] For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.
• Romans 3:10-12 [NLT] As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."

The leopard cannot change his spots (and has no desire to) ... until God opens their heart (Acts 16:14) and draws them in (John 6:65).

 

[MTMattie]

The Westminster Confession and the 1689 Confession are identical....we'd have to fish out the differences.
The outcome is the same.

Another point...
WHY would any confession be necessary if we're going by what the bible teaches??

Even Catholics have their very own book: Catechism of the Catholic Church

Why not just use the bible??

The West Minster also embraces Calvins Predestination including .. well, read for yourself.


1. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;a yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,b nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.c

a. Rom 9:15, 18; 11:33; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17. • b. James 1:13, 17; 1 John 1:5. • c. Prov 16:33; Mat 17:12; John 19:11; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28.

2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions,a yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.b

a. 1 Sam 23:11-12; Mat 11:21, 23; Acts 15:18. • b. Rom 9:11, 13, 16, 18.

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angelsa are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.b

a. Mat 25:41; 1 Tim 5:21. • b. Prov 16:4; Rom 9:22-23; Eph 1:5-6.

4. These angels and men, thus predestinated and fore-ordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished .a

a. John 13:18; 2 Tim 2:19.

5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory,a out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto;b and all to the praise of his glorious grace.c

a. Rom 8:30; Eph 1:4, 9, 11; 1 Thes 5:9; 2 Tim 1:9. • b. Rom 9:11, 13, 16; Eph 1:4, 9. • c. Eph 1:6, 12.

6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, fore-ordained all the means thereunto.a Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,b are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified,c and kept by his power through faith unto salvation.d Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.e

a. Eph 1:4-5; Eph 2:10; 2 Thes 2:13; 1 Pet 1:2. • b. 1 Thes 5:9-10; Titus 2:14. • c. Rom 8:30; Eph 1:5; 2 Thes 2:13. • d. 1 Pet 1:5. • e. John 6:64-65; 8:47; 10:26; 17:9; Rom 8:28-39; 1 John 2:19.

7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.a

a. Mat 11:25-26; Rom 9:17-18, 21-22; 2 Tim 2:19-20; 1 Pet 2:8; Jude 1:4.

8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,a that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.b So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;c and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.d

a. Deut 29:29; Rom 9:20. • b. 2 Pet 1:10. • c. Rom 11:33; Eph 1:6. • d. Luke 10:20; Rom 8:33; 11:5-6, 20; 2 Pet 1:10.

So as a lifelong member of a church that this is in their beliefs... I grew away from those beliefs.

If God has picked me for eternal death, then nothing I do or do not do will matter. The trouble is... How am I to know.

Having lived nearly 8 decades starting in a belief I was saved... after all... the church confirmed as such, as well as did the family... then realizing at some point in my youth and early years my lifestyles were not that that would bring honor to God, Jesus or even my folks in my late 30s I had a lightbulb moment where I thought I was not saved and I better repent and grow toward God ... in a better way then I had... I did a 75% repentence... keeping some vices that I did not see wrong
and that was for 24 years, until .. well, lets just say I basically fell off the wagon until one dayI got fully convicted
and my 75% became 99.44/1--% (still a problem I had to wrestle with and I believe I have that conquered, at last.. and this for certain was a;; my free will of wanting to please God and Please Jesus and Please the Holy Spirit.

But I know I was not predestined... But the heavenly Father has had pre-knowledge about me knowing where my pitfalls would be and not stopping me from them, He would cause something to come into my life that would make me think and I would change my mind, or not.

But I have known people that his irresistible grace has meant nothing and they just went on with their lives... like the group of people back in the 90s at a retreat were into the study of the goddess Sophia and reimaging God....

Westminster believers... and the intro of practicing gays in the pulpit etc
They all feel they are saved, because of predestination and I do not believe they are.

They will never change... they are exercising their free will and God is letting them.

So he does have everything in His control from beginning to end and through out but if we do not grab the brass ring when it is offered and we see it... the fault is ours.

 

[MTMattie]

IV. Salvation​

Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.

Right here is exactly where I find myself as my life winds down.

And when I understood that, the Holy Spirit has filled me and lives in me and often times even writes my replies in these threads.

Such a wonderful feeling to have a spirit rebirth.

 

[MTMattie]

Irresistible grace and free will do not belong in the same sentence.

IG means I CANNOT resist the grace of God.
It means I MUST ACCEPT the grace of God.

If I MUST do something,,,then I have no free will because I CANNOT have any other choice but to do what I MUST.

If I have no other choice...
it means I have no free will.

Maybe some persons don't mind calvinism because terms are being sugar coated??

I disagree.

 

[GodsGrace]

On that point Particular Baptists and the WCF agree. On who should be baptized and why ... we are 100% opposite. The issue is that both Presbyterians (to list one Reformed denomination) and Particular Baptists agree on TULIP ... but REFORMED THEOLOGY is bigger than just TULIP and Baptists are NOT from the Reformation (1400s - 1500's), we are from the late 1600's and spring from a different source (Vernacular Bibles in mass production in English).

But we're not discussing baptism here.
And you keep saying that your denomination is different but I don't see any difference.
Maybe it'll come out in the future.

I know that reformed theology is bigger and that's why I refer to both.
John Calvin was the most charismatic and popular reformed person and so,
we've come to know the acronym of TULIP by the name Calvinism.

It does not change any of the beliefs of that theology...
so what we call it is really non-consequential.

I should, in fairness, point out that the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith is only the "Gold Standard" for Particular (TULIP) Baptists like myself. The 2000 Baptist Faith and Message (created to reflect both GENERAL and PARTICULAR Baptists) has no chapter on "Free Will" and states the following about SALVATION and GRACE:

2020 BFM [link]

IV. Salvation​

Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.


A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God’s grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.


Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.


B. Justification is God’s gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.


C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God’s purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person’s life.


D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.


Genesis 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6:2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28:6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14,29; 3:3-21,36; 5:24; 10:9,28-29; 15:1-16; 17:17; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; 17:30-31; 20:32; Romans 1:16-18; 2:4; 3:23-25; 4:3ff.; 5:8-10; 6:1-23; 8:1-18,29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 1:18,30; 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3:1ff.; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; 11:1-12:8,14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:2-23; 1 John 1:6-2:11; Revelation 3:20; 21:1-22:5.

V. God’s Purpose of Grace​

Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God’s sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.


All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.


Genesis 12:1-3; Exodus 19:5-8; 1 Samuel 8:4-7,19-22; Isaiah 5:1-7; Jeremiah 31:31ff.; Matthew 16:18-19; 21:28-45; 24:22,31; 25:34; Luke 1:68-79; 2:29-32; 19:41-44; 24:44-48; John 1:12-14; 3:16; 5:24; 6:44-45,65; 10:27-29; 15:16; 17:6,12,17-18; Acts 20:32; Romans 5:9-10; 8:28-39; 10:12-15; 11:5-7,26-36; 1 Corinthians 1:1-2; 15:24-28; Ephesians 1:4-23; 2:1-10; 3:1-11; Colossians 1:12-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; 2 Timothy 1:12; 2:10,19; Hebrews 11:39–12:2; James 1:12; 1 Peter 1:2-5,13; 2:4-10; 1 John 1:7-9; 2:19; 3:2.

Really Atpollard...
why would I have to know any of the confessions?
Why not just use the bible?

If I want to speak to a Catholic,,,,do I need to know the CCC?
Absolutely not.

You say you're SOLA SCRIPTURA...
then be it !

 

[GodsGrace]

I disagree.

You could disagree all you want to MTMattie.
I'm afraid you're going to have to state why because you're stating something
does NOT MAKE IT SO.

I explained to you....

Now you explain HOW it's possible that I have free will if I'm FORCED to do something or to accept something.

 

[GodsGrace]

Right here is exactly where I find myself as my life winds down.

And when I understood that, the Holy Spirit has filled me and lives in me and often times even writes my replies in these threads.

sych a wonderful feeling to have a spirit rebirth.

This is wonderful MT....
but HOW did you obtain this salvation and rebirth??

This is the question at hand.

 

[GodsGrace]

The West Minster also embraces Calvins Predestination including .. well, read for yourself.

I've read it MT
Also the 1689.

1. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;a yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,b nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.c

So...from all eternity past God ordained everything that comes to pass....

However, God is not the author of sin, nor of violence on the part of men.

And...second causes are established IOW,,,decreed. So God does it all.

So,,,if God decreed EVERYTHING from the beginning...
HOW is He not respsonsible for everything?

God is logical.
The above is not logical.

a. Rom 9:15, 18; 11:33; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17. • b. James 1:13, 17; 1 John 1:5. • c. Prov 16:33; Mat 17:12; John 19:11; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28.

2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions,a yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.b

a. 1 Sam 23:11-12; Mat 11:21, 23; Acts 15:18. • b. Rom 9:11, 13, 16, 18.

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angelsa are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.b

a. Mat 25:41; 1 Tim 5:21. • b. Prov 16:4; Rom 9:22-23; Eph 1:5-6.

4. These angels and men, thus predestinated and fore-ordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished .a

Right.
Reformed/calvinist theology teaches that God will choose who will be saved and who will be damned.

a. John 13:18; 2 Tim 2:19.

5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory,a out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto;b and all to the praise of his glorious grace.c

Right.
God chose who will be saved and who will be damned based on nothing but HIS OWN GOOD PLEASURE.
And HE keeps them saved.....

It states that God does not have any CONDITIONS for mankind by which he can be saved.

a. Rom 8:30; Eph 1:4, 9, 11; 1 Thes 5:9; 2 Tim 1:9. • b. Rom 9:11, 13, 16; Eph 1:4, 9. • c. Eph 1:6, 12.

6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, fore-ordained all the means thereunto.a Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,b are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified,c and kept by his power through faith unto salvation.d Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.e

a. Eph 1:4-5; Eph 2:10; 2 Thes 2:13; 1 Pet 1:2. • b. 1 Thes 5:9-10; Titus 2:14. • c. Rom 8:30; Eph 1:5; 2 Thes 2:13. • d. 1 Pet 1:5. • e. John 6:64-65; 8:47; 10:26; 17:9; Rom 8:28-39; 1 John 2:19.

7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.a

a. Mat 11:25-26; Rom 9:17-18, 21-22; 2 Tim 2:19-20; 1 Pet 2:8; Jude 1:4.

8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,a that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.b So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;c and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.d

a. Deut 29:29; Rom 9:20. • b. 2 Pet 1:10. • c. Rom 11:33; Eph 1:6. • d. Luke 10:20; Rom 8:33; 11:5-6, 20; 2 Pet 1:10.

OK I think we both know what the Confessions state...
Why are we discussing them?

So as a lifelong member of a church that this is in their beliefs... I grew away from those beliefs.

If God has picked me for eternal death, then nothing I do or do not do will matter. The trouble is... How am I to know.

You are to know MT....
Because YOU choose to serve God and you KNOW that you have made this choice.
Reformed/calvinist theology causes many to lose faith and to leave Christianity altogether because they're never sure they are of the elect...

and, indeed, they CANNOT be sure because John Calvin himself taught this and none of the top calvinist theologians can assure anyone of their salvation.

For mainline Christianity only two items are necessary for salvation:
1. Believe in God/Jesus (same thing).
2. Obedience to God.

That's it.
If you believe God walked this earth in the Human Being called Jesus and
that He died to save you from your sins - as an atonement - and you desire to
follow in the ways that Jesus taught...

You can be assured of your salvation.

God doesn't PICK anyone for life or death...
God gives to EVERYONE of His beloved creatures the opportunity to be saved and spend eternity with Him.
1 Tmothy 2:4 God desires that everyone be saved....we just need to accept His conditions.

Having lived nearly 8 decades starting in a belief I was saved... after all... the church confirmed as such, as well as did the family... then realizing at some point in my youth and early years my lifestyles were not that that would bring honor to God, Jesus or even my folks in my late 30s I had a lightbulb moment where I thought I was not saved and I better repent and grow toward God ... in a better way then I had... I did a 75% repentence... keeping some vices that I did not see wrong
and that was for 24 years, until .. well, lets just say I basically fell off the wagon until one dayI got fully convicted
and my 75% became 99.44/1--% (still a problem I had to wrestle with and I believe I have that conquered, at last.. and this for certain was a;; my free will of wanting to please God and Please Jesus and Please the Holy Spirit.

OK This is good.
Nobody is perfect.
We all keep repeating the same sins over and over...
but less and less as time goes by and even our sins change and become smaller and smaller.
This is what I like to say:
WE DO OUR BEST
JESUS DOES THE REST

If we ask forgiveness God is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins.
1 John chapters 1 and 2 will confirm this.

But I know I was not predestined... But the heavenly Father has had pre-knowledge about me knowing where my pitfalls would be and not stopping me from them, He would cause something to come into my life that would make me think and I would change my mind, or not.

Correct. God knows who will be saved...this does not mean that HE chooses.
And, yes, if we're sensitive to the Holy Spirit,,,we will at some time or other understand a sin and
only at this point can we truly change regarding that particular sin.

But I have known people that his irresistible grace has meant nothing and they just went on with their lives... like the group of people back in the 90s at a retreat were into the study of the goddess Sophia and reimaging God....

I think you don't properly understand what irresistible grace is.
No grace of God is irresistible.
Anything God tells us can be resisted.
Jesus wept over Jerusalem because THEY WOULD NOT come to Him....
Jerusalem RESISTED God's grace.

Westminster believers... and the intro of practicing gays in the pulpit etc
They all feel they are saved, because of predestination and I do not believe they are.

You're right!

They will never change... they are exercising their free will and God is letting them.

Agreed.

So he does have everything in His control from beginning to end and through out but if we do not grab the brass ring when it is offered and we see it... the fault is ours.

God has everything is His control.
He is truly Sovereign.
But He has set up a world system whereby He has given man free will to be able to make moral choices.
God wants man to love Him freely...not because God forced man to love Him...this is not real love..
only love freely given is true love.

And yes,,,if we don't grab the brass ring when it's offered....the fault is ours...
PRECISELY because we had the free will to grab on to it.

 

[atpollard]

You say you're SOLA SCRIPTURA...
then be it !

Sure ...

SALVATION (Sola Scriptura version) =

Genesis 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6:2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28:6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14,29; 3:3-21,36; 5:24; 10:9,28-29; 15:1-16; 17:17; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; 17:30-31; 20:32; Romans 1:16-18; 2:4; 3:23-25; 4:3ff.; 5:8-10; 6:1-23; 8:1-18,29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 1:18,30; 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3:1ff.; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; 11:1-12:8,14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:2-23; 1 John 1:6-2:11; Revelation 3:20; 21:1-22:5.

That's what I believe!

Any questions?

 

[Studyman]

Are human decisions really not influenced by either NATURE or NURTURE (to use the common Sociology/Psychology terms)?

I agree that God’s intervention to save people (like opening Lydia’s heart in Acts to hear the message of Paul) is a violation of LIBERTINE Free Will (as is the claim in Ephesians 2:1-4 that we were once dead in sin and the rest of the description of the human condition). Scripture is HEAVY with verses that appear to claim that we are not a blank slate devoid of external influences. Yet YOU advocate that the Leopard can change his spots at any time he wishes.

I (and scripture) must respectfully disagree that such a condition exists.

If a man takes Eph. 2:1-4, and separates it from most the rest of the Bible, from most of the rest of Paul's Teaching, this man can easily promote the Philosophy that the state of man's heart is devoid of external influences. And clearly, there are many religious sects and businesses which make up this world's religious system, and we have been influenced by these religions, that teach varying degrees of this philosophy..

I tried to show you recently how this same tactic was used by this world's religions, before we were even born, concerning Romans 3. This religious practice happens all the time, and has been used as far back as the religious sect of the Pharisees which was the mainstream religion of the world God placed Jesus and Paul in. The result is to create a completely different message or teaching, than what is found if a man considers all or more of what is written. I gave you a perfect example of how you and I were influenced by this world's religions concerning Paul's message in Romans 3, and his purpose of Quoting David in Psalms 14, and 5.

As I am sure you could see, Paul was not supporting the popular religious philosophy of this world, "Total Depravity" when all or more of his words are examined. And yet, his words are used as support for this worldly philosophy. And I asked you kindly to answer just a couple of questions, but you didn't. I did so, not to insult or demean, but that you might see the clear deception that this world's religions are promoting concerning Paul's words in Romans 3, and that the truth of his words might set you free from one of the many deceptions Jesus warned about, as it did me.

This same tactic is used concerning the "Leopard" verse that is also used to promote this world's religious philosophy. If a person considers all that is written, Jeremiah most certainly doesn't promote "total Depravity". And yet religious men who have transformed themselves into apostles of Christ hundreds of years ago, have created philosophies which have influenced us to believe he did. Please consider Jeremiah's words.

Jer. 13: 9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem. 10 This evil people, "which refuse to hear my words", which walk in the imagination "of their heart" (Not the Father's Word), and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing. 11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

How are these any different than the "Workers of Iniquity" David speaks to in Ps. 5, & 14, or the men who slandered Paul in Romans 3? Or the Israelites who persecuted Calab and Joshua? Or Jeremiah taken captive. Does Jeremiah teach here that "No one hears God", No not One? No Sir, He doesn't, neither did David, and neither does Paul. But we have been taught by this world's religions, all of them, that they do.

15 Hear ye, and give ear; be not proud: for the LORD hath spoken.

16 Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.

17 But "if ye will not hear it", my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the "LORD'S flock" is carried away captive ( Ps. 14: 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up "my people" as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.)

22 And if thou say in thine heart, Wherefore come these things upon me? For the greatness of thine iniquity are thy skirts discovered, and thy heels made bare. 23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, "that are accustomed to do evil".

Hear what Jeremiah actually teaches.

Jer. 25: 4 And the LORD hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets, rising early and sending them; but ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear.

5 They said, Turn ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the LORD hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever: 6 And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt. 7 Yet ye have not hearkened unto me, saith the LORD; that ye might provoke me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt. 8 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words,

The popular religious philosophy that men are not born with the capacity or free will to turn from his disobedience and listen to and obey God, as the entire Bible instructs man to do, is one of the most wicked of all teaching. And also, one of the most popular philosophies promoted by this world's religious system.

It's no wonder Jesus said to "Come out of her".

 

[atpollard]

You say you're SOLA SCRIPTURA...
then be it !

Free Will (Sola Scriptura version) ...

• Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuteronomy 30:19.
• Ecclesiastes 7:29.
• Genesis 3:6.
• Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7.
• Ephesians 2:1-5.
• Titus 3:3–5; John 6:44.
• Colossians 1:13; John 8:36.
• Philippians 2:13.
• Romans 7:15-23
• Ephesians 4:13.

That's what I believe!

Any questions?

 

[GodsGrace]

Funny you should ask that:

“Baptists cherish and defend religious liberty, and deny the right of any secular or religious authority to impose a confession of faith upon a church or body of churches. We honor the principles of soul competency and the priesthood of believers, affirming together both our liberty in Christ and our accountability to each other under the Word of God."​

Committee Report on the submission of the Baptist Faith and Message 2000​

"Baptist churches, associations, and general bodies have adopted confessions of faith as a witness to the world, and as instruments of doctrinal accountability. We are not embarrassed to state before the world that these are doctrines we hold precious and as essential to the Baptist tradition of faith and practice.​

​

As a committee, we have been charged to address the “certain needs” of our own generation. In an age increasingly hostile to Christian truth, our challenge is to express the truth as revealed in Scripture, and to bear witness to Jesus Christ, who is “the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”​

​

The 1963 committee rightly sought to identify and affirm “certain definite doctrines that Baptists believe, cherish, and with which they have been and are now closely identified.” Our living faith is established upon eternal truths. “Thus this generation of Southern Baptists is in historic succession of intent and purpose as it endeavors to state for its time and theological climate those articles of the Christian faith which are most surely held among us.”​

​

It is the purpose of this statement of faith and message to set forth certain teachings which we believe.”​

​

The Confession is not for the CHURCH, it is for the WORLD.
The Church answers to SCRIPTURE and GOD (Father, Son and Spirit) ... individually (what we believe) and collectively ("one another").

OK Atpollard
What I'm saying is that we, on this side of the isle, are having to contend with both scripture and confessions.
It's like a Catholic confirming/supporting his beliefs with the CCC instead of the bible.

I happen to know the writings of John Calvin (The Institutes to be clear, not all his writings) and a couple of the confessions,,,
but it is not very fair....

The reason I've gone through the confessions is because I, and others like me, keep being told that WE DON'T UNDERSTAND calvinism.
Then we're led to a confession and it states what John Calvin stated but they've made it more soft in one way or another.

Like this:

GOD DECREED EVERYTHING MAN DOES....
BUT MAN IS STILL RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS BEHAVIOR.

It conflicts, doesn't it?
The bible has no conflict in it.

So, basically, what I'm saying is that there's no difference, really, between what John Calvin taught and what the 1689 Confession teaches and, probably even the 2,000 one but I'm not familiar with that one.

Is it softer still than the 1689?
It's still wrong Atpollard.....

 

[GodsGrace]

Free Will (Sola Scriptura version) ...

• Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuteronomy 30:19.
• Ecclesiastes 7:29.
• Genesis 3:6.
• Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7.
• Ephesians 2:1-5.
• Titus 3:3–5; John 6:44.
• Colossians 1:13; John 8:36.
• Philippians 2:13.
• Romans 7:15-23
• Ephesians 4:13.

That's what I believe!

Any questions?

Yes.
You think I'm in your head !
I can't know why you posted these verses.

Pick a couple of the above and we'll go over them.

 

[civic]

OK Atpollard
What I'm saying is that we, on this side of the isle, are having to contend with both scripture and confessions.
It's like a Catholic confirming/supporting his beliefs with the CCC instead of the bible.

I happen to know the writings of John Calvin (The Institutes to be clear, not all his writings) and a couple of the confessions,,,
but it is not very fair....

The reason I've gone through the confessions is because I, and others like me, keep being told that WE DON'T UNDERSTAND calvinism.
Then we're led to a confession and it states what John Calvin stated but they've made it more soft in one way or another.

Like this:

GOD DECREED EVERYTHING MAN DOES....
BUT MAN IS STILL RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS BEHAVIOR.

It conflicts, doesn't it?
The bible has no conflict in it.

So, basically, what I'm saying is that there's no difference, really, between what John Calvin taught and what the 1689 Confession teaches and, probably even the 2,000 one but I'm not familiar with that one.

Is it softer still than the 1689?
It's still wrong Atpollard.....

its not as bad as some saying I was never a calvinist lol. These are the same ones when I was a calvinist on other forums always giving me a high 5 and rep points for debating with non calvinists. Some will say anything to try and win an argument to the extent of being silly and ridiculous. I'm not including @atpollard as one of them just to be clear.

 

[atpollard]

Is it softer still than the 1689?
It's still wrong Atpollard.....

Of course it is wrong ... it doesn't agree with YOU ... that makes it [bad - wrong - evil]. (The fact that it is completely neutral on the Calvinism vs Arminianism debate sice it was written and approved by a mixed committee to represent the common ground they agreed upon in the BIBLE is 100% irrelevant ... it wasn't kissed by the Pope, so it is HERESY ... just like all of the BIBLE that disagrees with Church Teaching!)

But HEY, what does a HERETIC know about anything, anyway.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sure ...

SALVATION (Sola Scriptura version) =

Genesis 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6:2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28:6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14,29; 3:3-21,36; 5:24; 10:9,28-29; 15:1-16; 17:17; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; 17:30-31; 20:32; Romans 1:16-18; 2:4; 3:23-25; 4:3ff.; 5:8-10; 6:1-23; 8:1-18,29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 1:18,30; 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3:1ff.; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; 11:1-12:8,14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:2-23; 1 John 1:6-2:11; Revelation 3:20; 21:1-22:5.

That's what I believe!

Any questions?

This is not funny A.

If you don't want to discuss,
just do what other reformed do that cannot support their position...

don't reply to me.

NOWHERE in scripture does it state that God chooses who will be saved and who will not.

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course it is wrong ... it doesn't agree with YOU ... that makes it [bad - wrong - evil]. (The fact that it is completely neutral on the Calvinism vs Arminianism debate sice it was written and approved by a mixed committee to represent the common ground they agreed upon in the BIBLE is 100% irrelevant ... it wasn't kissed by the Pope, so it is HERESY ... just like all of the BIBLE that disagrees with Church Teaching!)

But HEY, what does a HERETIC know about anything, anyway.

Wow.
That was quick.
Already getting personal.

The fact is that reformed theology does not agree with the bible.

So far you've posted chapter and verse and expect ME to respond to a carpet bombing of a LIST of verses.

Why haven't you picked out 2 that we could discuss?

I'm willing...are you?

 

[MTMattie]

This is wonderful MT....
but HOW did you obtain this salvation and rebirth??

This is the question at hand.

I do not know how to explain it.

I only know that through my brick and mortar church and their teachings as a child I came to know that it was because of the shed blood of Jesus on the cross that salvation was brought to those who had faith or believed that. It was after that that the brick and mortar church confirmed me to
be a member... along with others in the class we were taking and after that I had my first Holy Communion. My church will only serve communion to those who believe that Jesus is the reason.....

Which always seemed counter to Predestined beliefs that never seem to emphasize that.

Anyway... I went through the 60s and all that entailed and being young ... well lets just say I did things I am not proud of. Yet I still was told I was saved, but I just did not feel it.... not like today. It was when I was in my late 30s that I felt God must be very disapppointed in me but I also came to believe that I might possibly not be saved.

Obviously I am leaving things unexplained. I shall leave it up to the reader to fill in the blanks.

So I went on a personal growth toward and with God. My life became centered on NOT WORKS... but on learning. Readings. and yes, even listening to multiple televangelists... a variety who did not all talk the same talk and it was during this time.. into the late 80s or early 90s that I began to pray in tongues. STOP............ This is not for discussion. And I started to go to visit some of these televangelists... Jack Van Impe, and even to Robert Schullers Founders INN where they were having a conference on end times. .... another not for discussion subject... and was the first time I was in the presence of those who actually raised their hands in song and prayer. Truth. I was not phased by this. But I did enjoy the speakers at the conference on end times for that has been something of interest for me since I was in my 20s.

Anyway, I came back from that and went about life as usual... still reading and seeking and following God as much as I could and even had the opportunity in 2004 to go to San Antonio Texas and hear John Hagee preach... but 4 years later my life finally fell apart. It was actually doing so from around 1998 until about 2007 and I was in trouble and God had my back in an unbelievable way. (Nope... no explanations)

But what did I do to repay him..... I allowed myself to go back into some old habits and new and it took me 3 years to let my guilt bring me to my senses and every so slowly i got back on the straight and narrow.... not without a major health issue as a result on my foolishness and then
one day I cannot say what I was doing.... It may have been as I was watching a religious program or it could have been when my mind was thinking I only know that I experienced a feeling that could only have been the Holy Spirit convicting me and entering me and he is still here.

I cannot describe the feeling. If you have had it you know.

So while the Sovereignty of God has full control of everything from beginning to the end and has controlled much of what we read in the Scriptures as well as having permitted thing in the Scriptures He allowed me the freedom to explore my freewill throughout my life until I just no longer wanted to because His love and Jesus love are far to important then anything this life will allow.

So I repeat.. I dont know how I did... but I did. Praise God

Maranatha

Amen,amen