2 Thessalonians 2

civic said:
Is the church going through the 7 year tribulation ?
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There is no such thing as a 7 year tribulation. There may be a 70th week, but NOWHERE in the Bible is it referred to as a 7 year tribulation or even "the tribulation period". There is a period of GREAT TRIBULATION, but it's not 7 years.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
There is no such thing as a 7 year tribulation. There may be a 70th week, but NOWHERE in the Bible is it referred to as a 7 year tribulation or even "the tribulation period". There is a period of GREAT TRIBULATION, but it's not 7 years.
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The 70th week began when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

The 70th week will be completed when the LORD Returns.
 
civic said:
Nope they are Gods bowls of wrath- Gods Judgements.

Since you believe Jesus bore Gods wrath on the cross then you have a giant CONTRADICTION.

Jesus taking Gods wrath on the cross is null and void since Gods wrath is being poured out a second time in Revelation.

I don't have a contradiction since Jesus never bore Gods wrath. :)

Rev 15:1-Then I saw another great and marvelous sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven final plagues, with which the wrath of God is completed.

Rev 15:7- And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever

Rev 16:1- Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.”

Bible Truth/ Facts 101.
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You're describing the Day of the Lord's wrath (which is more than a day, but that's what it's called). But that is not the same thing as the great tribulation.

Here's where the Day of the Lord's wrath begins:

Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Jesus has returned and raptured the saints and the wrath is about to start.

Then the 144,000 are sealed.

Where are those raptured saints?

Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION [it's over, and now wrath begins]; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
You're describing the Day of the Lord's wrath (which is more than a day, but that's what it's called). But that is not the same thing as the great tribulation.

Here's where the Day of the Lord's wrath begins:

Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Jesus has returned and raptured the saints and the wrath is about to start.

Then the 144,000 are sealed.

Where are those raptured saints?

Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION [it's over, and now wrath begins]; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
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Sorry Jesus doesn’t return until chapter 19 in Revelation on the white horse. It’s still future.
 
civic said:
From same place you found wrath from Father on the Son.
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Someone on here posted this - Do you know who?

"Hermenuetics 101"

“if the scripture makes plain sense, you should seek no other sense lest it result in nonsense”

"Some will try and obfuscate the obvious meaning of the text to defend their doctrines. They will give the obvious meaning some other meaning to support their presuppositions."
 
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DavidTree said:
Someone on here posted this - Do you know who?

"Hermenuetics 101"

“if the scripture makes plain sense, you should seek no other sense lest it result in nonsense”

"Some will try and obfuscate the obvious meaning of the text to defend their doctrines. They will give the obvious meaning some other meaning to support their presuppositions."
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In other words, he's admitting that a"seven-year tribulation" cannot be found in the Bible. Just like you can't find a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth after the 2nd coming. If there was such an earthly reign, then Peter would have mentioned it in 2 Peter 3:10. Instead he says there that the earth and the heavens will be destroyed on the same day that Christ returns. It's kind of hard to have a millennium on the earth, when the earth has just been burned up. Jesus is reigning now at the right hand of God. He told us "My kingdom is not of the world." So did He change His mind and decide to be a King in Jerusalem for 1000 years? If He does that, then His kingdom IS of this world.The last day, which is the 2nd coming is just that - the last day. There are no more days after that. Nor can you find a secret rapture 7 years before the 2nd coming. The Bible only speaks of one rapture, happening at the 2nd coming.
 
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dwight92070 said:
In other words, he's admitting that a"seven-year tribulation" cannot be found in the Bible.
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You were talking about another here and I can't say if they're admitting it's not found. We do know Dan 9:27 speaks of the 70th week and dispensational teachers in the 1800s joined up Matt 24: 21 speaking of great tribulation and sewed it together with Dan 9:27. Question is....did they have the right to do this? As for me I think not. After this was done it just got repeated over and over and over again like a mantra where the idea of it became like bedrock.

It's been engrained and that which is engrained deep over 100 years it's hard to shake. I don't believe the wrath of God and tribulation are the same....while I'm open to believe the 7 years period ended some time after Christ's death, that doesn't mean though I can accept a preterist view point. I don't and can't. One teacher I listened to periodically is Steve Gregg. Periodically I've had correspondence with him, he's a partial preterist.

There's so many different degrees one can be of this too. I don't agree 100% with all Greg's views but it's well worth allowing him to challenge what I'd call extreme dispensationalism. He's a good Christian brother. I'd really encourage all to watch this seminar of his. Some very, very interesting things he does say. (if one didn't want to watch it all at least watch from 1:07.00 onwards.



 
dwight92070 said:
In other words, he's admitting that a"seven-year tribulation" cannot be found in the Bible. Just like you can't find a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth after the 2nd coming. If there was such an earthly reign, then Peter would have mentioned it in 2 Peter 3:10. Instead he says there that the earth and the heavens will be destroyed on the same day that Christ returns. It's kind of hard to have a millennium on the earth, when the earth has just been burned up. Jesus is reigning now at the right hand of God. He told us "My kingdom is not of the world." So did He change His mind and decide to be a King in Jerusalem for 1000 years? If He does that, then His kingdom IS of this world.The last day, which is the 2nd coming is just that - the last day. There are no more days after that. Nor can you find a secret rapture 7 years before the 2nd coming. The Bible only speaks of one rapture, happening at the 2nd coming.
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Good Morning Dwight,

AGREE - there is no secret rapture AND anyone who says there is, is deceived by it = 1 John 2:21

Actually, i have seen and know of the evidence given in scripture of the 1,000 year reign in both the OT and NT

Peace to you in Christ Today Dwight
Rockson said:
You were talking about another here and I can't say if they're admitting it's not found. We do know Dan 9:27 speaks of the 70th week and dispensational teachers in the 1800s joined up Matt 24: 21 speaking of great tribulation and sewed it together with Dan 9:27. Question is....did they have the right to do this? As for me I think not. After this was done it just got repeated over and over and over again like a mantra where the idea of it became like bedrock.

It's been engrained and that which is engrained deep over 100 years it's hard to shake. I don't believe the wrath of God and tribulation are the same....while I'm open to believe the 7 years period ended some time after Christ's death, that doesn't mean though I can accept a preterist view point. I don't and can't. One teacher I listened to periodically is Steve Gregg. Periodically I've had correspondence with him, he's a partial preterist.

There's so many different degrees one can be of this too. I don't agree 100% with all Greg's views but it's well worth allowing him to challenge what I'd call extreme dispensationalism. He's a good Christian brother. I'd really encourage all to watch this seminar of his. Some very, very interesting things he does say. (if one didn't want to watch it all at least watch from 1:07.00 onwards.

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Our Brother bailed on the question = thus yielding to the fact there does not exist in scripture that which he claims

Now, this actually is a Good Thing as we all should be longing for TRUTH = "Thy Word is Truth"
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
You're describing the Day of the Lord's wrath (which is more than a day, but that's what it's called). But that is not the same thing as the great tribulation.

Here's where the Day of the Lord's wrath begins:

Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Jesus has returned and raptured the saints and the wrath is about to start.

Then the 144,000 are sealed.

Where are those raptured saints?

Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION [it's over, and now wrath begins]; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
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So RT we both agree on this. But what are you, are you a futurist or a preterist in your understanding?
 
EclipseEventSigns said:
The early church fathers also believed that the crucifixion happened on a Friday. Which is wrong! And that belief was already in existence only a few hundred years after the event took place. They had already lost the connection with the Jewish culture and accurate religious understanding. In our modern times we have so much more information and accurate understanding available than they ever did.

The commonly stated (and false idea) that dispensationalism is a modern invention is not accurate to the facts of church history. The Roman church squelched many of the correct biblical beliefs and made the post millennial view the official dogma for centuries. But many no longer had personal access to Scripture and could not combat these wrong beliefs until the time of the printing press made Scripture available to all.
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Actually they were right, probably. The text indicates that pretty strongly. But that aside, it is probably worth pointing out that to dismiss certain things that are ubiquitous in the early church fathers is a bad idea, but not impossible obviously. I would say that some things couldn't be known because they lived before the periods mentioned occurred. Although their comments often reflect a fairly decent case that they saw several possibilities.

I am a SDA
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
I'm not a preterist. I don't know the definition of futurist, but the scriptures I quoted are in the future.
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if you believe after the texts in Daniel 7 start speaking of the 3.5 years are literal and are the time, times, and half a time, which they almost certainly refer to the same period as the "1260 days, 42 months, 3.5 years, time, times, and half a time" found in Daniel and Revelation, then you are a Futurist. If you believe that the 1260 days are symbolic, and refer to the Roman church apostasy that occured in history over 1260 years, actually or approximately, you would be a Historicist.
 

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