2 Thessalonians 2

Had a surprise on Sunday at church. Our Pastor brought forth teaching now which he said he was no longer a Pre-Trib believer but Post Tribulation. As for me I'd be what's called Pre-Wrath but never really bothered me if people were whatever when it comes to this. I think back in the 70's if he said this half his congregation would have stood up and walked out. I think people then didn't have the way to really know other people's views before the internet.

Now with all sorts of message boards, teachings on line people are exposed to different perspectives and are open to other peoples opinions. That of course can be a good thing or a bad thing but I like to see people KNOW what they believe and why instead of just being indoctrinated without having given it any genuine thought.
 
dwight92070 said:
Actually, since you will not (or cannot) produce proof of your claim that dsp is not a relatively new doctrine (as I have shown that it is,1826-1827), then why would you yourself expect to be taken seriously? But I will not reject you, as you apparently have me, unlike a proper Berean. Apparently with you, one slip up and you're out.
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Not saying the other poster is guilty of this but I think some have embraced such a fiery dogmatic passion towards every aspect of their end time view that they might not get that some things or a few things don't have to be absolutely be considered to be true. (the way they're considering it) I think there's quite a lot of grace we can show to each other on this subject.
 
Rockson said:
Had a surprise on Sunday at church. Our Pastor brought forth teaching now which he said he was no longer a Pre-Trib believer but Post Tribulation. As for me I'd be what's called Pre-Wrath but never really bothered me if people were whatever when it comes to this. I think back in the 70's if he said this half his congregation would have stood up and walked out. I think people then didn't have the way to really know other people's views before the internet.

Now with all sorts of message boards, teachings on line people are exposed to different perspectives and are open to other peoples opinions. That of course can be a good thing or a bad thing but I like to see people KNOW what they believe and why instead of just being indoctrinated without having given it any genuine thought.
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Signs of the times. There are a lot less people reading the Bible to study these days than there were in the 1970's, for example. The proliferation of bite-sized ear candy churches of the past couple of decades has left most people open to a lot of false teaching.
 
Rockson said:
Not saying the other poster is guilty of this but I think some have embraced such a fiery dogmatic passion towards every aspect of their end time view that they might not get that some things or a few things don't have to be absolutely be considered to be true. (the way they're considering it) I think there's quite a lot of grace we can show to each other on this subject.
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Not dogmatic. Would LOVE to discuss other viewpoints. But when someone comes on here and makes unsupported claims and then when challenged can't support it, then there must be consequences. You can't just go around saying whatever you want with made up statements. It is evidence of someone who does not hold the truth and facts as important. They are untrustworthy. They are shown to be false speakers. No, one does not not have to accept that kind of behaviour.
 
EclipseEventSigns said:
Not dogmatic. Would LOVE to discuss other viewpoints. But when someone comes on here and makes unsupported claims and then when challenged can't support it, then there must be consequences. You can't just go around saying whatever you want with made up statements. It is evidence of someone who does not hold the truth and facts as important. They are untrustworthy. They are shown to be false speakers. No, one does not not have to accept that kind of behaviour.
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I have explained all of what happened, but you don't want to hear it. All you want to do is name-call me and condemn. Now I am called untrustworthy and a false speaker. Unfortunately, all you're really doing is displaying the typical character of many dispensationalists. It's either your way, or the highway. There's no grace shown, as if I committed a great evil, which I didn't. You're like the Woke people, who "cancel" anyone who disagrees with you. Sorry, but only God can cancel me, and He won't unless I turn my back on Him, which I will never do.

All of this - and you still haven't proven your claim. This was your claim, but you haven't backed it up with what you call "the facts of church history":

The commonly stated (and false idea) that dispensationalism is a modern invention is not accurate to the facts of church history.

You claim to have the facts. Let's see them. You challenged me - now I'm challenging you. Or can't you take your own medicine?
 
Rockson said:
Had a surprise on Sunday at church. Our Pastor brought forth teaching now which he said he was no longer a Pre-Trib believer but Post Tribulation. As for me I'd be what's called Pre-Wrath but never really bothered me if people were whatever when it comes to this. I think back in the 70's if he said this half his congregation would have stood up and walked out. I think people then didn't have the way to really know other people's views before the internet.

Now with all sorts of message boards, teachings on line people are exposed to different perspectives and are open to other peoples opinions. That of course can be a good thing or a bad thing but I like to see people KNOW what they believe and why instead of just being indoctrinated without having given it any genuine thought.
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Since "Eschatology" is nothing more that a religious term for "Rank Speculation", I'll just wait till HE tells me to "Come up here". In the meantime, I'll "Occupy till HE comes", like He told us to do.
 
civic said:
Yes as Jesus taught in His parables to be ready and have our lamps full.
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Some time ago, I realized that the "Wise" and the "Foolish" virgins didn't suddenly become "Wise" or "Foolish" that day.

They were BOTH ACTING NORMALLY according to the way they'd been living for AGES.

So it didn't matter WHEN the bridegroom showed up, the WISE had been ready for ages, and the Fools would never be ready.
 
Bob Carabbio said:
So it didn't matter WHEN the bridegroom showed up, the WISE had been ready for ages, and the Fools would never be ready.
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I do agree with you Bob but keep in mind the ones who were foolish thought the Lord delayed his coming and they thought they had a long time before he'd come. But you're right.....all should be ready and that's the main thing.
 
Bob Carabbio said:
Some time ago, I realized that the "Wise" and the "Foolish" virgins didn't suddenly become "Wise" or "Foolish" that day.

They were BOTH ACTING NORMALLY according to the way they'd been living for AGES.

So it didn't matter WHEN the bridegroom showed up, the WISE had been ready for ages, and the Fools would never be ready.
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Your interpretation doesn't take into account that unsaved people can get saved, so the foolish virgins could change and become wise. Also saved people can fall away from the faith (2 Peter 2:20, 1 Timothy 4:1), and forfeit their salvation. So the wise virgins could change and become foolish.

In fact, if your interpretation is correct, then the Lord would not even need to tell this parable, because according to your interpretation, the status-quo would always be the status-quo. Jesus would be teaching them NOTHING.

But I think He was warning the wise virgins to remain wise and He was warning the foolish virgins to GET WISE. Or He was warning the saved to stay saved - i.e. don't fall away from God (Hebrews 3:12), and He was warning the unsaved to GET SAVED.

So, yes, the foolish virgins could very well have become foolish that day, and the wise virgins could very well have become wise that day.
 
dwight92070 said:
Your interpretation doesn't take into account that unsaved people can get saved, so the foolish virgins could change and become wise. Also saved people can fall away from the faith (2 Peter 2:20, 1 Timothy 4:1), and forfeit their salvation. So the wise virgins could change and become foolish.

In fact, if your interpretation is correct, then the Lord would not even need to tell this parable, because according to your interpretation, the status-quo would always be the status-quo. Jesus would be teaching them NOTHING.

But I think He was warning the wise virgins to remain wise and He was warning the foolish virgins to GET WISE. Or He was warning the saved to stay saved - i.e. don't fall away from God (Hebrews 3:12), and He was warning the unsaved to GET SAVED.

So, yes, the foolish virgins could very well have become foolish that day, and the wise virgins could very well have become wise that day.
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Apples and Oranges. "Being born again" isn't anywhere in the context. It's all about human proclivity, and habitual custom.
 
Bob Carabbio said:
Apples and Oranges. "Being born again" isn't anywhere in the context. It's all about human proclivity, and habitual custom.
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The foolish virgins came back to the bridegroom in verse 11 and said, "Lord, lord, open up for us." But he answered, "Truly I say to you, I do not know you."
Who are the ones that Jesus does not know? Those who are not saved. So I am amazed that you cannot see salvation and those who are not saved in this parable.
 
Some Christians are not prepared to wait for the Lord's return and begin to slip back into their previous sins and lifestyle. They are like the foolish virgins who were not prepared for the bridegroom to delay His return. Matthew 25:5 In Matthew 24:48 the slave said, "My master is not coming for a long time, ..." and then he began to go back to his sinful life, forfeiting his salvation. Both the foolish virgins and the foolish slave were lost and headed to hell.

The Bible authors tell us to "continue in our faith" and in good deeds. " ... so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men." Titus 3:8 and Titus 2:14 says, "who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds." "Faith without works is dead." James 2:17

The wise virgins prepared themselves for the long haul. " ... but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved." Matthew 10:22 If we don't plan on following Jesus until we die, or until He returns, then we cannot be saved.

So, yes, this is definitely a parable of salvation, just like the parable before it in Matthew 24:45-51, about the faithful and sensible slave vs. the foolish slave. Also the parable after the ten virgins is about salvation - the parable of the talents. The wicked, lazy slave hid his talent and ended up in hell. Of course the final judgment in verses 31-46 is also about saved vs. unsaved, goats vs. sheep, inheriting His kingdom or going to hell.

The entire chapter of Matthew 25 focuses in and salvation vs. damnation.
 
civic said:
It depends on how tribulation is defined since the 1st half/ 3 1/2 years is "peace" prior to the wrath, plagues, persecution etc... being leashed out in the last 3 1/2 years. So it could still technically be a "pre- trib " rapture. :)
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JESUS defined tribulation for us, there is no confusion except from those who preach the falsehood of pre-trib rapture.

The Apostles confirmed JESUS definition of tribulation as well.

There is no confusion when we follow the LORD's commandment = Matthew 4:4
 
civic said:
It depends on how tribulation is defined since the 1st half/ 3 1/2 years is "peace" prior to the wrath, plagues, persecution etc... being leashed out in the last 3 1/2 years. So it could still technically be a "pre- trib " rapture. :)
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The last 3.5 years (which are cut short by an unknown degree) are not wrath. That's the great tribulation. What you're suggesting is a mid-trib rapture, which is easily disproved from scripture.

Oh, I forgot -- God is love, and a loving God would never put us through great tribulation. Just ask Paul or Peter or any of the many other martyrs.
 
DavidTree said:
JESUS defined tribulation for us, there is no confusion except from those who preach the falsehood of pre-trib rapture.

The Apostles confirmed JESUS definition of tribulation as well.

There is no confusion when we follow the LORD's commandment = Matthew 4:4
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Do you believe Jesus bore Gods wrath on the cross ? yes or no
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
The last 3.5 years (which are cut short by an unknown degree) are not wrath. That's the great tribulation. What you're suggesting is a mid-trib rapture, which is easily disproved from scripture.

Oh, I forgot -- God is love, and a loving God would never put us through great tribulation. Just ask Paul or Peter or any of the many other martyrs.
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Nope they are Gods bowls of wrath- Gods Judgements.

Since you believe Jesus bore Gods wrath on the cross then you have a giant CONTRADICTION.

Jesus taking Gods wrath on the cross is null and void since Gods wrath is being poured out a second time in Revelation.

I don't have a contradiction since Jesus never bore Gods wrath. :)

Rev 15:1-Then I saw another great and marvelous sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven final plagues, with which the wrath of God is completed.

Rev 15:7- And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever

Rev 16:1- Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.”

Bible Truth/ Facts 101.
 
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