Your Views on The Trinity

[charismaticlady]

Just the words "son of God" shows up in the New Testament more than 50 times means nothing to them. Not one place does it say God the son.

and @Runningman

I thought like you guys until I read Paul's letter to Titus. I was shocked and even wrote in the margin: JESUS IS GOD!!! I obeyed the Spirit in me and changed my mind quickly so as to not teach a lie!

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

 

[Peterlag]

and @Runningman

I thought like you guys until I read Paul's letter to Titus. I was shocked and even wrote in the margin: JESUS IS GOD!!!

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Two are mentioned... God and Jesus. The verse does not say God who is Jesus.

 

[charismaticlady]

Two are mentioned... God and Jesus. The verse does not say God who is Jesus.

It says that to me. It is Jesus that will be "appearing." How do you explain God appearing?

 

[Runningman]

and @Runningman

I thought like you guys until I read Paul's letter to Titus. I was shocked and even wrote in the margin: JESUS IS GOD!!! I obeyed the Spirit in me and changed my mind quickly so as to not teach a lie!

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

This clearly shows that Paul believed God and Jesus aren't the same person. Generally speaking, Paul never conflates God with Jesus. Did you read most of his letters? They almost all start out with calling the Father God, but none of them call Jesus God.

 

[Runningman]

Two are mentioned... God and Jesus. The verse does not say God who is Jesus.

Most of Paul's letter start off something like how Romans 1 does, clearly identifying who is God and who isn't. It's telling of their state of mind that they ignore all context and push false ideas.

Romans 1
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Two are mentioned... God and Jesus. The verse does not say God who is Jesus.

Can God and Savior not be one person?

Do you personally have one savior or two?

 

[praise_yeshua]

and @Runningman

I thought like you guys until I read Paul's letter to Titus. I was shocked and even wrote in the margin: JESUS IS GOD!!! I obeyed the Spirit in me and changed my mind quickly so as to not teach a lie!

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Didn't I tell you that they weren't like you? You'll start getting a taste of their ilk yourself.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Correct, the First and the Last isn't an exclusive divine title. It refers to category, "the first and the last" of something. Jesus is the First and the Last Messiah, but not the First and the Last God. God, Almighty, etc are titles Jesus doesn't have in Scripture. This is the only sensible interpretation that makes sense or else the consequence is the Bible portrays an immortal God who can die, which is contradictory and erroneous. Many Trinitarian commentators have come to agree with this necessary conclusion.

So First and the Last isn't a title that means Jesus is God. Anyone else want to take a swing at trying to force deity onto Jesus?

So when the Father said the same, it wasn't about being God?

Do you even hear yourself speak? You just disqualified the father from divinity by your own response. Geesh....

 

[praise_yeshua]

Can God and Savior not be one person?

Do you personally have one savior or two?

He doesn't believe Jesus is a savior of anyone. You're dealing with a man that has no semblance of Christianity. He doesn't appeal to Christ for anything.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Titus 2
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

This clearly shows that Paul believed God and Jesus aren't the same person. Generally speaking, Paul never conflates God with Jesus. Did you read most of his letters? They almost all start out with calling the Father God, but none of them call Jesus God.

Generally speaking? Do you even know what that phrase means. That means there is an exception somewhere.

You think you're talented and you know so very little about so many things. How old are you? 15, 16 years old?

 

[praise_yeshua]

It says that to me. It is Jesus that will be "appearing." How do you explain God appearing?

They believe they're going to serve the "father" without serving Jesus Christ. Surely you see this....

 

[Peterlag]

It says that to me. It is Jesus that will be "appearing." How do you explain God appearing?

Can God and Savior not be one person?

Do you personally have one savior or two?

Do you know anyone who writes God and Savior God?

 

[civic]

and @Runningman

I thought like you guys until I read Paul's letter to Titus. I was shocked and even wrote in the margin: JESUS IS GOD!!! I obeyed the Spirit in me and changed my mind quickly so as to not teach a lie!

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Yep !!!

 

[Peterlag]

Most of Paul's letter start off something like how Romans 1 does, clearly identifying who is God and who isn't. It's telling of their state of mind that they ignore all context and push false ideas.

Romans 1
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Most of Paul's letter start off something like how Romans 1 does, clearly identifying who is God and who isn't. It's telling of their state of mind that they ignore all context and push false ideas.

Verse 7... To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Great point.

cc: @charismaticlady

 

[FreeInChrist]

He doesn't believe Jesus is a savior of anyone. You're dealing with a man that has no semblance of Christianity. He doesn't appeal to Christ for anything.

I understand... but he also is confused by which ever translation he prefers.... which is none of the following.

New International Version
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

New Living Translation
while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed.

English Standard Version
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Berean Standard Bible
as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Berean Literal Bible
awaiting the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

New King James Version
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

New American Standard Bible
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

NASB 1995
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

NASB 1977
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;

Legacy Standard Bible
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Amplified Bible
awaiting and confidently expecting the [fulfillment of our] blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Christian Standard Bible
while we wait for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Contemporary English Version
We are filled with hope, as we wait for the glorious return of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

English Revised Version
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
At the same time we can expect what we hope for-the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Good News Translation
as we wait for the blessed Day we hope for, when the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ will appear.

International Standard Version
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.

NET Bible
as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

New Heart English Bible
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ;

Weymouth New Testament
in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope--the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

Majority Text Translations

Majority Standard Bible
as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

World English Bible
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
waiting for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Berean Literal Bible
awaiting the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Young's Literal Translation
waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,

New Revised Standard Version
while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
looking for the blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Godbey New Testament
looking for the blessed hope even the appearing of the glory of our great God and our Saviour Christ Jesus;

Haweis New Testament
expecting the blessed hope, and glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

Weymouth New Testament
in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope--the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

YET..... Jimmys translation says it that way..... but they are confused in and of themselves.... (Not my choice)

King James Bible
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

And the Catholics...........

Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ,

Catholic Public Domain Version
looking forward to the blessed hope and the advent of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ.

Which to me, he does not seem to be cut from a former alter boy. Could be wrong.... I have been surprised before.

However... it certainly says in every translation Our Gret God or The Great God and our Savior are one in the same...

See... he is wrong

 

[FreeInChrist]

Do you know anyone who writes God and Savior God?

Give me the scripture. I never read that.

I have read these

New International Version
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

New Living Translation
while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed.

English Standard Version
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Berean Standard Bible
as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Berean Literal Bible
awaiting the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

New King James Version
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

New American Standard Bible
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

NASB 1995
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

NASB 1977
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;

Legacy Standard Bible
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Amplified Bible
awaiting and confidently expecting the [fulfillment of our] blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Christian Standard Bible
while we wait for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Contemporary English Version
We are filled with hope, as we wait for the glorious return of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

English Revised Version
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
At the same time we can expect what we hope for-the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Good News Translation
as we wait for the blessed Day we hope for, when the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ will appear.

International Standard Version
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.

NET Bible
as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

New Heart English Bible
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ;

Weymouth New Testament
in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope--the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

Majority Text Translations

Majority Standard Bible
as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

World English Bible
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
waiting for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Berean Literal Bible
awaiting the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Young's Literal Translation
waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,

New Revised Standard Version
while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
looking for the blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Godbey New Testament
looking for the blessed hope even the appearing of the glory of our great God and our Saviour Christ Jesus;

Haweis New Testament
expecting the blessed hope, and glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

Weymouth New Testament
in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope--the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

YET..... Jimmys translation says it that way..... but they are confused in and of themselves.... (Not my choice)

King James Bible
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

And the Catholics...........

Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ,

Catholic Public Domain Version
looking forward to the blessed hope and the advent of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Runningman]

So when the Father said the same, it wasn't about being God?

Do you even hear yourself speak? You just disqualified the father from divinity by your own response. Geesh....

No I did not. Did you read what else I said? How do you account your the First and Last dying if being First and Last necessitates being God? As I have already pointed out, many Trinitarian scholars have also concluded that First and Last isn't a divine title, but a reference to category:

Trinitarian commentators who agree that being First and Last doesn't equal being God:

Dave Burke - The Great Trinity Debate, Part 2
“First and last … There is no suggestion here that Jesus is God. … These are precisely what we would expect of the Father’s own Son, elevated …”

Christian Disciples Church
“In this brief survey of Revelation 1, we have found nothing that supports the deity of Christ … What we see instead is the glory of the Perfect Man, … he is God’s representative …”

And several others. This is proof that sharing titles with God does not refer to ontological claims.

 

[Runningman]

Most of Paul's letter start off something like how Romans 1 does, clearly identifying who is God and who isn't. It's telling of their state of mind that they ignore all context and push false ideas.

Verse 7... To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Great point.

cc: @charismaticlady

The proof is that Paul went all around the Romans empire informing everyone that God is the Father with no mention of Jesus sharing in that. That's Unitarian Paul. He repeated the same narrative all the way to Titus. I imagine trinitarians have a big goofy "gotcha" grin on their face when they ignore the context of everything Paul's letters states while simultaneously pushing idolatry.

Romans 1
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1
3Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1
2Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3
3Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephesians 1
2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1
2Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1
2To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 1
1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1
2Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1
2Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 1
2To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1
4To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Philemon 1
3Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[mikesw]

The proof is that Paul went all around the Romans empire informing everyone that God is the Father with no mention of Jesus sharing in that. That's Unitarian Paul. He repeated the same narrative all the way to Titus. I imagine trinitarians have a big goofy "gotcha" grin on their face when they ignore the context of everything Paul's letters states while simultaneously pushing idolatry.

Romans 1
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1
3Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1
2Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3
3Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephesians 1
2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1
2Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1
2To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 1
1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1
2Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1
2Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 1
2To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1
4To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Philemon 1
3Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Unitarians miss that Jesus is called Lord in each other introductions. These do not just God the Father and Jesus Christ.

Also let me tell you stuff you have never heard before:
1. objects dropped off the edge of a tall building fall downwards
2. water heated up to 100C boils
3. cat cries are represented as meow
4. snow is pretty cold for most people in Mexico

The lesson here is that Paul does not always tell people what they already know. He tells them the new information and arguments that pertain to problems among those recipients.

 

[Runningman]

Unitarians miss that Jesus is called Lord in each other introductions. These do not just God the Father and Jesus Christ.

Also let me tell you stuff you have never heard before:
1. objects dropped off the edge of a tall building fall downwards
2. water heated up to 100C boils
3. cat cries are represented as meow
4. snow is pretty cold for most people in Mexico

The lesson here is that Paul does not always tell people what they already know. He tells them the new information and arguments that pertain to problems among those recipients.

Which does absolutely nothing to undermine the exclusive deity of God the Father.

God made Jesus Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36)