That is such a useless statement. The Trinitarian insight is simply a way to provide a concise and collective explanation of the essence of God found in scripture. It is studying and explaining how Christ Jesus is shown both as human and divine in the face of the Oneness of God in the Shema. That is why the doctrine does not have to be something stated directly in scripture. Paul did not have to show interest in examining how the testimony of scripture was to be reconciled. The unitarians create a false problem here.
Your Views on The Trinity
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charismaticlady
Active Member
What I see in the Church at large is the doctrine of demons that "we can never be holy in this lifetime until after we die and receive our new body, because we all still have a sin nature that fights against the Spirit." Impossible. We either have a sin nature or the divine nature of the born again. Our nature, which is our mind and heart, is what Jesus meant must be born again of the Holy Spirit. That is why the born again cannot commit a sin of lawlessness (commandments). 1 John 3:4-9, and 24. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. Those false teachers play right into the hands of demons when they bring our outside body into the mix. Stupid! The body is nothing more than a dead puppet until it is energized by the spirit and soul, the puppet masters. Sin comes from our nature, not our body. Those with a sin nature have to fight against the knowledge of the commandments, but those with a divine nature keep the commandments naturally.
Peterlag
Active Member
Just the words "son of God" shows up in the New Testament more than 50 times means nothing to them. Not one place does it say God the son.
charismaticlady
Active Member
Do you really believe that 1 John 5:7 is just, "7 For there are three that testify:"
Instead of KJV: "7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
oh my. Jesus did not decide to put his word order in the way you want it. That is so silly of a request by you.
Peterlag
Active Member
Let's talk about Matthew 28:19...
Eusebius of Caesarea (260/265AD – 339 AD) – Matthew 28:19 "The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius: Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. In this particular section of his book he was addressing people that claim Jesus used sorcery to perform his miracles, and in his argument he quotes Mathew 28:19 "Go and make disciples of all nations in My Name." Interesting that he doesn't say baptize, nor does he mention the trinity or a threesome of any kind.In biblical research and in any other reasonable study. If we have 10 clear verses on a subject and 1 verse that does not fit with the other 10 verses on the same subject. We are not to disregard the 10 clear verses and hold on to the 1 verse and then say we have proof that the 1 verse is well documented. Baptizing in the name of the father, son, and spirit is not taught or practiced anywhere in the book of Acts or in any other part of the New Testament.
Nobody carried out such a request that Trinitarians say came from Jesus. So even if 1 John 5:7 and Matthew 28:19 were originally written by the Apostles. It still does not fit with the rest of the Bible because we are immersed in the spirit when we are born again. We get that spirit by confessing the Lord Jesus, and believing that God raised him from the dead. Thus we are immersed in his name.
Runningman
Active Member
Yes, they are well known for inventing terms because the Bible doesn't use terms that help them.
Peterlag
Active Member
They have two "Get out of Jail" cards that they use every single day. They are...
1.) That was his human side.
2.) God did not mean for us to understand, or we are not smart enough to understand, or they twist it back on me and say God did not write it the way I think He should, so the problem becomes me. Mikesw is great at this one.
So @Runningman, given that the entire soteriology of Calvinism, Reform Theology, derives from the doctrine of Total Depravity, could you please give us chapter and verse that gives the definition of Total Depravity?
@Jim
Jim, I believe as soon as the clouds received Christ out of their sight, then he appeared in the third heaven far above all. The glorified body had such power to will to be there and then appear. After all Christ's body was raised a spiritual body.
Christ arose from the dead with a glorified body that we all must agree upon. That body is someone in heaven if needed.
Actually we cannot speak much about that we we have never experience, so I'll stop and leave it here.
While I agree flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God in heaven or the world to come, but a glorified body did leave this world and the scriptures said that Christ shall return in like manner as he left.
Acts 1:11
“Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”Jim, I believe as soon as the clouds received Christ out of their sight, then he appeared in the third heaven far above all. The glorified body had such power to will to be there and then appear. After all Christ's body was raised a spiritual body.
1st Corinthians 15:44
“It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.”Christ arose from the dead with a glorified body that we all must agree upon. That body is someone in heaven if needed.
Actually we cannot speak much about that we we have never experience, so I'll stop and leave it here.
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Really? You ask why didn't scriptures say it this way or that way but you now blame it on me. hahah
You complain how it is written while you just deny the obvious points about Jesus's divinity. You create novel doctrines and say people should believe you. hahah.
If you want to introduce novel doctrines, begin a new council and invite solid debate and try to convince well-trained scholars that two thousand year old doctrine should now change.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
So tell me how Jesus fits into this.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
LIar. We do not teach a separation in the Person of Christ. That is your lie.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Please do tell.... What is the difference?
You must really love to hear/see yourself write/speak.
Notice what YOU didn't say Epstein.... "sons of God".
Runningman
Active Member
Yes, they keep running away and making up excuses. You can put them in a corner by demonstrating that the beliefs are indefensible against Scripture.
Runningman you can review your Post#3193, you state "The First and Last died and received eternal life." Quoting Revelation 1:17,18 in reference to Jesus who said "I am the First and the Last, the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever."
I just believe you do not know that the first who claim that title was the Father, God in nature, Divine being, Deity, etc.
That would mean that Jesus as the "First and the Last" is God, a Divine being, Deity etc., the one that died was Jesus human flesh.
Jesus was in dual nature when He was here on earth as "Son of man" and Son of God."(Matthew 26:63,64)
Again, your statement, "First and Last" isn't a title that refers to deity," a direct opposition to the Almighty God the Father's words.
Good day Red Baker, this is a revised of my Post#3192 that you missed, correct me if I'm wrong reading your belief on various responses. If the Word is the God the Father, therefore Jesus is not the Word. And Jesus was not a person until He was conceived, born and only in His humanity is Jesus separate from the Father. I just would like to know what is your take with what Daniel saw. Who do your interpret the "Ancient of Days" refer to? And Who do you interpret the "Son of Man" refer to?Only in his humanity is Jesus separate from His Father, yet still equal to God in his eternal deity as the Word!
1st John 1:1
“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us”
He was with the Father as far as being ONE with Him in His eternal Deity as God blessed over all. Jesus was the God of Genesis 1:1 as the Word of God! They were ONE as far as what consist of real Divinity of the Most High God?
The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind. Deny any of these attribute concerning our Lord Jesus Christ, then one has rejected God's testimony concerning the Godhead. To do so is antichrist.
I'm sure it is to you and your Catholic source of information from the Nicene Creed. We will never use Creeds written by men to support our understanding.
Are they two separate person or just one person?
Dan 7:9 "I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.
Dan 7:13 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.
Dan 7:14 "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
@Red Baker. Seriously Red? There is not a single verse, sentence or phrase in the entire NT that speaks of anyone, including Jesus, having a glorified body.
I have always respected you in your attention to God's word, even in those many instances where you interpret those words terribly wrong. Here there are no such words. The Bible contains no such words that you can even interpret badly. Jesus went to great lengths with Thomas to prove that the body that came out of the tomb was the same body, though healed against bleeding, that went into the tomb.
Absolutely not. There is no mention of a glorified body. And clearly neither you nor I have even a hint of what a "spiritual body" might be. For certain, it is not physical. As I said, there is nothing in heaven that is physical.
Actually, we should not speak about a body which is never spoken of at all in the Bible. So yes, please stop there.
Runningman
Active Member
Correct, the First and the Last isn't an exclusive divine title. It refers to category, "the first and the last" of something. Jesus is the First and the Last Messiah, but not the First and the Last God. God, Almighty, etc are titles Jesus doesn't have in Scripture. This is the only sensible interpretation that makes sense or else the consequence is the Bible portrays an immortal God who can die, which is contradictory and erroneous. Many Trinitarian commentators have come to agree with this necessary conclusion.
So First and the Last isn't a title that means Jesus is God. Anyone else want to take a swing at trying to force deity onto Jesus?
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