"Works Salvation"

[brightfame52]

So you are saved without ever repenting nor believing in the Gospel? Tell us more.

This isnt about me. Im witnessing, testifying that if anyone conditions their salvation on something they did, its works. I reckon you disagree, which is fine with me

 

[Doug Brents]

Whenever you make something you do as a condition for your salvation, that's works and apostate from Grace.

You keep repeating that to me and many others, but saying it over and over does not make a lie the truth. You have taken Eph 2:8-9 and formed this portion of your doctrine around it, but have chosen to ignore or delete from Scripture the many passages that negate your perspective on this passage. I really hope that someday you will come to be able to read the Scriptures with an unbiased, and open heart, and see what is really said there.

 

[Doug Brents]

Sorry you are denying scripture

John 3:14–15 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him.

John 3:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 (NASB 2020) — 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

John 5:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 5:25 (NASB 2020) — 25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

John 5:39–40 (NASB 2020) — 39 “You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

John 6:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Romans 3:21–22 (ESV) — 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Romans 3:23–25 (ESV) — 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Romans 3:26 (ESV) — 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 3:27–28 (ESV) — 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Romans 3:30 (ESV) — 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Romans 4:4–5 (ESV) — 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Romans 5:1 (ESV) — 1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:8–9 (ESV) — 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:10 (ESV) — 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Acts 10:43 (ESV) — 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

John 7:38–39 (ESV) — 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Galatians 3:2 (ESV) — 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:5 (ESV) — 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—

Galatians 3:14 (ESV) — 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 3:17 (ESV) — 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV) — 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

and many many more

No, I am not denying Scripture. I am saying that the word used for "belief", "believed", "believes", etc. in all of these passages is the Greek word "pistis" which means faith. And faith cannot be passive, inactive, and sedate, or it is dead and useless. Faith MUST be active, obedient, and do the things that are commanded of God that HE says lead to salvation.

Today we use "believe" as a synonym for "intellectual assent". You can "believe" something but you do not have to do anything. But that is not the Biblical understanding of "believe". In Scripture, to "believe" something you must act accordingly. You must do the things that the belief would cause you to do. As Jesus asked, "Now why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when there was a flood, the river burst against that house and yet it could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49 But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation; and the river burst against it and it immediately collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great."

 

[TomL]

No, I am not denying Scripture. I am saying that the word used for "belief", "believed", "believes", etc. in all of these passages is the Greek word "pistis" which means faith. And faith cannot be passive, inactive, and sedate, or it is dead and useless. Faith MUST be active, obedient, and do the things that are commanded of God that HE says lead to salvation.

Today we use "believe" as a synonym for "intellectual assent". You can "believe" something but you do not have to do anything. But that is not the Biblical understanding of "believe". In Scripture, to "believe" something you must act accordingly. You must do the things that the belief would cause you to do. As Jesus asked, "Now why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when there was a flood, the river burst against that house and yet it could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49 But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation; and the river burst against it and it immediately collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great."

Faith is a noun believe is the verb

neither mean to be baptized with water

This is getting old

The verses are there

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/works-salvation.970/post-50634

and i could have doubled them

None mention water baptism

 

[Doug Brents]

Faith is a noun believe is the verb

Belief can also be a noun, and faith, if it does not have actions with it, is dead (and therefore not really faith). Thus, both are both nouns and verbs. The Greek word, pistis, is also a noun, but as Heb 11:1 and James 2:14-26 tell us, faith must include action or it is not real, because the action perfects the faith and makes it alive.

neither mean to be baptized with water

Correct. The Greek "baptizo/baptizma" are the verb and noun that means "immerse/immersion". This does not reference what it is that is being immersed or what it is being immersed into. But many Scriptures tell us what is being immersed (the disciple) and what he is being immersed in (water (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 8:36, John 3:5, etc.).

This is getting old
The verses are there

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/works-salvation.970/post-50634

and i could have doubled them
None mention water baptism

Let me ask you a simple question: Does the fact that one passage mentions something and another passage talking about the same thing doesn't mention it invalidate either passage of SCRIPTURE?

 

[brightfame52]

You keep repeating that to me and many others, but saying it over and over does not make a lie the truth. You have taken Eph 2:8-9 and formed this portion of your doctrine around it, but have chosen to ignore or delete from Scripture the many passages that negate your perspective on this passage. I really hope that someday you will come to be able to read the Scriptures with an unbiased, and open heart, and see what is really said there.

Yep I keep repeating it, because the error that promotes salvation by conditions, keeps repeating itself. Yet if you or anyone make anything we do a requirement so that God will save us, its an apostate work based, Grace denying message !

 

[synergy]

Yep I keep repeating it, because the error that promotes salvation by conditions, keeps repeating itself. Yet if you or anyone make anything we do a requirement so that God will save us, its an apostate work based, Grace denying message !

You even deny acknowledging the very next verse 10 as to what type of works verses 8 and 9 are referring to. @dizerner produced an excellent explanation of works that is highly educational. Maybe he can forward it to you if you haven't read it already.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yep I keep repeating it, because the error that promotes salvation by conditions, keeps repeating itself. Yet if you or anyone make anything we do a requirement so that God will save us, its an apostate work based, Grace denying message !

"for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." (Rom 10:10)
"Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for the one who has died is freed from sin." (Rom 6:4-7)
"You are My friends if you do what I command you." (John 15:14)
"And having been perfected, He became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him" (Heb 5:9)
And there are many more. Whether or not we receive salvation, friendship with God, justification, etc. are conditioned on what man does. The fact that these things are available does not depend on man, but is the gift of God. But we do not receive them until/unless we obey God.

 

[Seabass]

I think the control Noah had was in his choosing to be obedient and to do what God instructed him to do. He was a righteous man, that “found favor in the eyes of the Lord” (Genesis 6:8).

Noah's obedient work in building the ark cannot therefore be called a work of merit for it earned him nothing. His salavtion from the flood was by God's grace AND his obedience for without grace or obedience he could not have been saved from the flood.

 

[TomL]

Belief can also be a noun, and faith, if it does not have actions with it, is dead (and therefore not really faith). Thus, both are both nouns and verbs. The Greek word, pistis, is also a noun, but as Heb 11:1 and James 2:14-26 tell us, faith must include action or it is not real, because the action perfects the faith and makes it alive.

Correct. The Greek "baptizo/baptizma" are the verb and noun that means "immerse/immersion". This does not reference what it is that is being immersed or what it is being immersed into. But many Scriptures tell us what is being immersed (the disciple) and what he is being immersed in (water (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 8:36, John 3:5, etc.).

Let me ask you a simple question: Does the fact that one passage mentions something and another passage talking about the same thing doesn't mention it invalidate either passage of SCRIPTURE?

No, as I told you before both are true.

Therefore when you deny what all those verses I posted show, you are denying the testimony of scripture

Observe

He who believes and is baptized will be saved.

He who believes will be saved.

Both are true, but you deny the second sentence

 

[Doug Brents]

No, as I told you before both are true.

Therefore when you deny what all those verses I posted show, you are denying the testimony of scripture

Yes, belief, faith, repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism are all truly conditions upon which salvation is received.

You didn't answer the question: Does the fact that one passage mentions something and another passage talking about the same thing doesn't mention it invalidate either passage of SCRIPTURE?

 

[TomL]

Yes, belief, faith, repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism are all truly conditions upon which salvation is received.

You didn't answer the question: Does the fact that one passage mentions something and another passage talking about the same thing doesn't mention it invalidate either passage of SCRIPTURE?

Did you not read?

No, as I told you before both are true

 

[Doug Brents]

Did you not read?

No, as I told you before both are true

You've lost me. Both what are true?

 

[brightfame52]

You even deny acknowledging the very next verse 10 as to what type of works verses 8 and 9 are referring to. @dizerner produced an excellent explanation of works that is highly educational. Maybe he can forward it to you if you haven't read it already.

If you condition salvation on anything you do, its works, its law keeping salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

"for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." (Rom 10:10)
"Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for the one who has died is freed from sin." (Rom 6:4-7)
"You are My friends if you do what I command you." (John 15:14)
"And having been perfected, He became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him" (Heb 5:9)
And there are many more. Whether or not we receive salvation, friendship with God, justification, etc. are conditioned on what man does. The fact that these things are available does not depend on man, but is the gift of God. But we do not receive them until/unless we obey God.

Law keeping salvation, you cant shake it.

 

[Doug Brents]

Law keeping salvation, you cant shake it.

Correct: you cannot shake what the Word of God says!
The only way to receive salvation from God is to be obedient to God. Salvation is not given to anyone who is not obedient to God. It is not that salvation is given AND THEN you obey.

 

[synergy]

If you condition salvation on anything you do, its works, its law keeping salvation.

So you're saying that I should stay inert like a rock, do nothing like repent or believe, and I'll be saved according to Calvinist thinking? Boy, are you out to lunch or what?

 

[dwight92070]

You've lost me. Both what are true?

I think I can answer that question. When TomL says that "both are true", I think he's saying both scriptures are true. That is, the verses that talk about baptism are true and the ones that don't mention baptism are also true. TomL can correct me, if that's not what he meant.
But I would add that the scriptures that include baptism do not conclusively show, that without it, a person is not saved.

Doug, you have never given your response to 1 Corinthians 1:17. Paul said, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, ..." If baptism was a requirement for salvation, then why would Paul make this statement? If baptism is necessary for salvation, then why didn't Christ send him to preach the gospel AND baptism?

 

[dwight92070]

Simeon was told by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he saw the Lord's Messiah. Well, Jesus was just 8 days old and Simeon took Him in his arms and said "Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace, according to Your word, for my eyes have seen Your salvation, ..." Luke 2:29-30
Did you catch that? God's salvation IS Jesus - nothing else, noone else.
Someone has said, salvation is Jesus plus nothing. not baptism, not circumcision, not other works, not anything else. He alone is salvation.

 

[Soyeong]

Simeon was told by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he saw the Lord's Messiah. Well, Jesus was just 8 days old and Simeon took Him in his arms and said "Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace, according to Your word, for my eyes have seen Your salvation, ..." Luke 2:29-30
Did you catch that? God's salvation IS Jesus - nothing else, noone else.
Someone has said, salvation is Jesus plus nothing. not baptism, not circumcision, not other works, not anything else. He alone is salvation.

Jesus is the embodiment of God's word, so saying that he alone is salvation is the same as saying that embodying God's word is the only way of salvation. In other words, God's word is not a different way to the Father than God's word made flesh.