"Works Salvation"

Bronson said:
According to Galatians 1, those who teach the false gospel of grace-plus-works are “anathema”; that is, they are condemned by God.

The “gospel” of grace plus works is false. And that's not a guess.
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Well, could you please provide some scripture that shows that God does not require obedience from us.....

Jesus said the Lawless will not be welcomed into heaven.
The lawless are those that do not follow the law.

Did Jesus leave us with commands to follow?

John 15:14
14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you.


Since good works are all over the NT,,,I'd say that the new idea of FAITH ONLY is the false gospel.
This idea did not exist until a few hundred years ago at the time of the reformed/calvinist belief system.

I believe the new ideas are false...not the ones that were present at the time of Jesus and which HE taught.

Please see my post 1993 and explain why all those verses about doing good works are in the NT if YOU believe that doing good works is a false gospel.
 
360watt said:
Yeah.. so the faith James writes about is the kind that is used for the profit of others.

The context isn't how someone us converted..but what they are doing with faith they already have to profit others.
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I've heard many versions of what some think James meant.

But James wrote what he meant.

Here is what James meant:

James 2:15-17
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.



James 2:20
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?



James 2:21-26
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.


You also might check out my post no. 1993 and explain why there are so many verses in the NT regarding good works.
It would seem that it's an important component of our salvation.

If we obey Jesus,,,we will do good works.
 
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Grace ambassador said:
Great, so 'which' do I obey?:

1) His Words/Commands To Israel (through 12), According To Prophecy/Law/Covenants:? or:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

2) His Wholesome Words/Commands To The Body Of Christ (through one), According To
The Revelation Of The Mystery / Grace!

or:

3) The homogenization of 1 + 2 with Total Confusion / Division / Strife about "words of obedience"???

I have decided to follow/obey Jesus?

Amen.
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Aren't ALL of Jesus commands applicable to all of us??
 
Seabass said:
1 Pet 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

2 Thess 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 2:8
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Rom 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Matt 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Lk 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The NT makes it clear that obedience to the Lord's will is what separates the lost (disobedient/unrighteous) from the saved (obedient/righteous).


Jer 11:3-4
And say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant,
Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God:


Also under the OT it was obedience to God that separated those that were God's people and those not of God.

======================================

Heb 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Christ is the Author of salvation NOT to those that do works of merit, NOT to those that have faith only, NOT to those who repeat a sinner's prayer, NOT to those who do good works but to those who "obey Him".
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One cannot obey the Gospel until Christ saves them, the Spirit has to sanctify them 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Christs Salvation causes the obedience, thats what Heb 5:9 is teaching
 
Neil Spargo said:
Isa 50:11 Behold, all you [enemies of your own selves] who attempt to kindle your own fires [and work out your own plans of salvation], who surround and gird yourselves with momentary sparks, darts, and firebrands that you set aflame!—walk by the light of your self-made fire and of the sparks that you have kindled [for yourself, if you will]! But this shall you have from My hand: you shall lie down in grief and in torment.

The fact that salvation is by the grace of God and not by man’s works is a conclusion found in Scripture.

Once good works are introduced into the salvation process, salvation is no longer by faith alone; it is by faith and works. To imply that salvation is maintained by good works (or not sinning) is to take the daily burden of our salvation upon ourselves.
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Now if people would just see this basic truth.. the self righteousness and attacks and false accusations may cease.
 
Bronson said:
There are simply too many verses that teach that one is not saved by works for any Christian to believe otherwise.

Titus 3:4–5 is one “But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.”

Good works do not contribute to salvation, but they will always be characteristic of one who has been born again. Good works are not the cause of salvation; they are the evidence of it.
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Sadly. Far to many take other verses out of context and cause the word to contradict itself
 
GodsGrace said:
Hi Bronson...

I guess that Paul contradicted himself in the very same letter !


Titus 2:14​

Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Titus 3:8​

The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.
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Yes. You make paul contradict himself

Paul taught of works of the believer, not the works of the make believer trying to keep themselves saved. Oa uyp spoke against these works
 
GodsGrace said:
Well, could you please provide some scripture that shows that God does not require obedience from us.....
Click to expand...
How about these. Please show us the works required

John 1: 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE (no works)

John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already (no works)

John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will NEVER THIRST. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE” (no works)

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he whoever HEARS MY WORD and BELIEVES IN HIM WHO SENT ME who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (No works)

John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. HE WHO COMES TO ME shall NEVER HUNGER and he who BELIEVES IN ME shall NEVER THIRST (NO WORKS)

John 6: 37: and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, thatof all He has given Me I SHAL LOSE NOTHING, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND I WILL (NOT MIGHT) RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY (NO WORKS)

John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that THAT ONE MAY EAT OF IT AND NOT DIE 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER (NO WORKS)

John 6: 63 It is the SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE ; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE (SIGNIFYING THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN, THE FLESH AND BOOD ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPOKE. NOT THE PHYSICAL FOOD OR WORKS,)

EPH 1: 13 In Him YOU ALSO TRUSTED , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also ,HAVING BELIEVED YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE 14 who IS THE GAURANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

THE INHERITANCE HE SAID WE ALREADY HAD IN THE 1ST 12 VERSES. (AGAIN, NO WORKS)

eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses,MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and RAISED US UP TOGETHER , and MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED (A COMPLETED ACTION) THROUGH FAITH , (AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES ; it IS THE GIFT OF GOD, 9 NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (NO WORKS)

rom 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND HE ACOUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, THE WAGES ARE NOT COUNTED AS GRACE BUT DEBT (Works cancels out grace. and makes it a wage) 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGOLDY , his HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS (AGAIN NO WORKS. PERIOD)

rom 4: 16 Therefore IT IF OF FAITH THAT IT MAY BE ACCORDING TO GRACE , so that THE PROMISE MAY BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED not only to those who are of the law, but also TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM , who is the father of us all (AGAIN, NO WORKS, IT IS OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH)

Rom 4: 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but ALSO FOR US, IT SHALL BE IMPUTED TO US WHO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was RAISED BECAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION (AGAIN NO WORKS)

Rom 11: 6 And IF BY GRACE, THAN IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS, ; otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE.But IF IT IS OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE. OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK (AS i HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIME, GRACE + WORKS = WORKS.. GRACE AND WORKS CAN NOT MIX IN THE AREA OF SALVATION. ITS LIKE MIXING OIL AND WATER)

2 Tim 1: 9 who HAS SAVED US (A COMPLETED ACTION) and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS , but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE which was GIVEN TO US in Christ Jesus BEFORE TIME BEGAN (AGAIN, NO WORKS. BUT GRACE)

Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (GOOD DEEDS) WHICH WE HAVE DONE , but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED USthrough the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
(AGAIN, NO QUESTION HERE. PAUL LEAVES NO QUESTION. NO GOOD DEED CAN SAVE US,. WE ARE SAVED BY GODS MERCY, AND GIVEN THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE. WHICH IS PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

Titus 1: 2 in HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE which GOD WHO CAN NOT LIE PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN
 
GodsGrace said:
I've heard many versions of what some think James meant.

But James wrote what he meant.

Here is what James meant:

James 2:15-17
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.



James 2:20
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?



James 2:21-26
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.


You also might check out my post no. 1993 and explain why there are so many verses in the NT regarding good works.
It would seem that it's an important component of our salvation.

If we obey Jesus,,,we will do good works.
Click to expand...
Yeah he did

What does it profit a person if they SAY they have faith, but has no works, CAN THAT FAITH SAVE THEM?

The answer is no. Because true faith works. As Paul said over and over.
 
@Seabass


Heb 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Christ is the Author of salvation NOT to those that do works of merit, NOT to those that have faith only, NOT to those who repeat a sinner's prayer, NOT to those who do good works but to those who "obey Him".
Click to expand...

One commentator writes on Heb 5:9 which I agree

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Perfect - Bring to completion or make perfect (having been perfected)The author - Cause or source The sufferings of Christ was His perfection and His consecration to the office of High Priest. This resulted in Him being the author or the cause of salvation which means that those who are In Christ are eternally saved. The term “obey” does not mean we obey unto salvation but the obedience comes after salvation. Being obedient to Christ is a proof of one being in Christ. One can never work for their salvation because the reason Christ suffered was to save His people. If a person could work for their salvation, then the suffering of Christ would have been unnecessary. https://www.scionofzion.com/hebrews_5_6_10.htm
Click to expand...
 
GodsGrace said:
Aren't ALL of Jesus commands applicable to all of us??
Click to expand...
Great question:

Should I obey Jesus' Command to Israel and the twelve?:
​
"one thing thou lackest...sell All / take up cross / follow Jesus"​
(Mark 10:17-23) ???​

or? Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

Should I obey Jesus' Command to Paul, for The Body Of Christ?
​
Work with my hands to "give to them in need," and the LORD "shall supply all my need"
(Ephesians 4:28; 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12; 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12; 1 Timothy 5:8)

or (ALL of Jesus' Commands 'applicable?' to ALL people???):

Obey BOTH, Correct?

More "Rightly Divided" Commands are here:

I have decided to follow Jesus?

Amen.

Study to Be APPROVED Open Bible.png
 

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