"Works Salvation"

[dwight92070]

In Luke 18:9-14 Jesus "told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:
Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all I get.' "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift his eyes up to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!" I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

So really anything that we do or don't do, that makes us trust in ourselves, that we are righteous, is a work, even if that work or the avoiding of that work, is a commandment of God. This self-righteousness apparently is often accompanied with an attitude of contempt toward others - pride vs. humility.
So if the above Pharisee humbled himself and removed his contempt for others, avoided being a swindler, or unjust, or an adulterer, fasted twice a week and paid tithes of all he got, then God would have rewarded him for avoiding sin, and practicing righteousness. If he too, cried out to God for His mercy, not relying on his works, but God's righteousness, then he too, would have been justified and forgiven.

If you are trusting that getting baptized will put you in union with Christ and will cause all of your sins to be forgiven, rather than trusting in God Himself, after repenting of your sins and receiving His forgiveness and His righteousness in Christ, then your trust needs to be refocused, away from baptism, and on to Jesus, your Savior, who will cause you to be born again, on the spot, and will give you His Holy Spirit - before baptism.

 

[Doug Brents]

In Luke 18:9-14 Jesus "told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:
Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all I get.' "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift his eyes up to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!" I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

So really anything that we do or don't do, that makes us trust in ourselves, that we are righteous, is a work, even if that work or the avoiding of that work, is a commandment of God. This self-righteousness apparently is often accompanied with an attitude of contempt toward others - pride vs. humility.
So if the above Pharisee humbled himself and removed his contempt for others, avoided being a swindler, or unjust, or an adulterer, fasted twice a week and paid tithes of all he got, then God would have rewarded him for avoiding sin, and practicing righteousness. If he too, cried out to God for His mercy, not relying on his works, but God's righteousness, then he too, would have been justified and forgiven.

If you are trusting that getting baptized will put you in union with Christ and will cause all of your sins to be forgiven, rather than trusting in God Himself, after repenting of your sins and receiving His forgiveness and His righteousness in Christ, then your trust needs to be refocused, away from baptism, and on to Jesus, your Savior, who will cause you to be born again, on the spot, and will give you His Holy Spirit - before baptism.

Proper baptism is not in any way trusting in one's self or the water. It is trust in God and His promise. God is the one who promised that if you trust Him, and obey His command, you will receive forgiveness/salvation.
The clearest example of a physical human action that leads to being saved is in Rom 10:9-10. The Holy Spirit through Paul says that one must confess Jesus as Lord, because confession of Jesus as Lord with the mouth LEADS TO receiving salvation. There is no ambiguity here. This is clearly a physical act, that leads to/causes one to receive salvation as a gift from God.
Baptism is similarly mentioned as not only leading to, but being the point at which, the gift of salvation being received.

 

[Titus]

.

Hello, I dont believe we have ever met on this forum.

That statement is a contradiction. Obedience to God's law is something we do therefore it's a work. What do you get for your work? Wages right?

No contradiction friend,
Works can have nothing to do with a wage earned.
Our salvation is a free gift of Gods mercy, His grace being poured out on unworthy sinners.

Since salvation must be by Grace, and why is that? Answer, Because no amount of good works can cover our sin debt to God.
Therefore our works are only to obtain Gods Grace and mercy, without grace our works cannot obtain or earn any spiritual blessing from God.

Why would you have to work for a gift? it's called the gift of salvation right?

Good question!
Remember the good works we do can never earn Gods justification of our sin debt.

Therefore the works that are involved in salvation are not works of merit but works of obedience to Gods commandments.

Free gifts can be 100% free and still have nessary requirements in order to obtain them.
You still must do some non-meritorious work to qualify
Examples
Car dealership giving away a free car.
The gift is 100% free of any additional tax.

But the free gift requires qualifications to obtain this gift.
One must be at least 18 years of age.
One must be a citizen of the United states.
One must be lawfully licensed to drive a car.
One must enter you name, number, and home address before Feburary 20, 2024.

If one of these requirements are not met you do not qualify for the free gift.
If you win did you earn the free gift by doing the works that you were given to do?

Likewise in Jesus' gospel faith is one of the conditional requirements to recieve Gods free gift.
Gods grace is conditional!!!
The first condition is one must believe in the gospel, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
If one believes does this no longer make the gift free?

Will Gods free gift be freely given to those who do not meet the first condition of faith in Christ?

Keeping the law will not save you, It's in the Bible.

I agree,
But the confusion among many with this statement is you must know the context of the verse when the Scriptures mention the Law.

The Scripture you are referring to is teaching about the old testament law of Moses.
The law the Jews were under.
Yes, that law never saved anyone.
No one including Jews are bound to the old testament Law today.
All are under the new testament law of Christ, so it is by that law we must work Gods commandments in to obtain Gods mercy and grace.

Hebrews 8:13,
- In that He says a new covenant God has made the first covenant obsolete now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away

Hebrews 9:14,15
- how much more shall the blood of Christ who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God cleanse your conscience from dead works(works of the old Mosaical law) to serve the living God

- and for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant by means of death for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance

See only under the new law of Christ can Jews and gentiles receive redemption.
The law of Moses(first covenant) never removed the transgressions of Gods people.
Eternal life forgiveness of sins was only obtained under the new covenant by the blood Christ shed in His death for both jew and gentile.

Hebrews 10:4,
- for it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

 

[Obadiah]

Hello, I dont believe we have ever met on this forum.

No contradiction friend,
Works can have nothing to do with a wage earned.
Our salvation is a free gift of Gods mercy, His grace being poured out on unworthy sinners.

Since salvation must be by Grace, and why is that? Answer, Because no amount of good works can cover our sin debt to God.
Therefore our works are only to obtain Gods Grace and mercy, without grace our works cannot obtain or earn any spiritual blessing from God.


Good question!
Remember the good works we do can never earn Gods justification of our sin debt.

Therefore the works that are involved in salvation are not works of merit but works of obedience to Gods commandments.

Free gifts can be 100% free and still have nessary requirements in order to obtain them.
You still must do some non-meritorious work to qualify
Examples
Car dealership giving away a free car.
The gift is 100% free of any additional tax.

But the free gift requires qualifications to obtain this gift.
One must be at least 18 years of age.
One must be a citizen of the United states.
One must be lawfully licensed to drive a car.
One must enter you name, number, and home address before Feburary 20, 2024.

If one of these requirements are not met you do not qualify for the free gift.
If you win did you earn the free gift by doing the works that you were given to do?

Likewise in Jesus' gospel faith is one of the conditional requirements to recieve Gods free gift.
Gods grace is conditional!!!
The first condition is one must believe in the gospel, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
If one believes does this no longer make the gift free?

Will Gods free gift be freely given to those who do not meet the first condition of faith in Christ?


I agree,
But the confusion among many with this statement is you must know the context of the verse when the Scriptures mention the Law.

The Scripture you are referring to is teaching about the old testament law of Moses.
The law the Jews were under.
Yes, that law never saved anyone.
No one including Jews are bound to the old testament Law today.
All are under the new testament law of Christ, so it is by that law we must work Gods commandments in to obtain Gods mercy and grace.

Hebrews 8:13,
- In that He says a new covenant God has made the first covenant obsolete now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away

Hebrews 9:14,15
- how much more shall the blood of Christ who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God cleanse your conscience from dead works(works of the old Mosaical law) to serve the living God

- and for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant by means of death for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance

See only under the new law of Christ can Jews and gentiles receive redemption.
The law of Moses(first covenant) never removed the transgressions of Gods people.
Eternal life forgiveness of sins was only obtained under the new covenant by the blood Christ shed in His death for both jew and gentile.

Hebrews 10:4,
- for it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

Have adjusted my stance on this topic since my post that you quoted. I understand what you're saying that a gift can be conditional. That even a free gift does not necessarily exclude the idea of a condition being imposed. One of those conditions would be believing there is such a gift as salvation and yes we do that by faith.

Paul says that we are ‘freely’ justified (Rom. 3:24), and later he describes salvation as a ‘free gift’ (Rom. 6:23). But some claim that we must ‘do’ something, such as be baptized, in order to be saved. I've seen this one turn into a big argument and I don't believe baptism is a requirement for salvation.

So then what must we do to be saved?

In Matthew 7:21 Jesus says, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” Jesus made it clear that merely acknowledging Him as Lord and Master—saying “Lord, Lord”—is not sufficient. To inherit the Kingdom of God, we must do the will of the Father, as He clearly stated.

Jesus wants us to understand that there is more to receiving eternal life than just belief or mental acceptance. Our conviction that He is our Savior must be more than just a warm, comforting thought or intellectual concept. Jesus warns that simply calling on His name or recognizing Him as “Lord” is not enough.

There has to be a change. That's why Jesus told Nicodemus you must be born again.

I'm a firm Believer of lordship salvation. I know that it turns a lot of people off but I believe the reason for that is they may not have a clear understanding of what it is to make Jesus Lord of your life.

While salvation is represented as that which is “freely given,” the Paul nonetheless forcefully argues that these saints were “delivered” and “made free from sin” by virtue of their having “obeyed from the heart that form of teaching” which had been proclaimed to them (Rom. 6:17).

To me it is quite clear that salvation, as a free gift, and the need to obey the Lord, are not mutually exclusive propositions.

 

[Doug Brents]

Have adjusted my stance on this topic since my post that you quoted. I understand what you're saying that a gift can be conditional. That even a free gift does not necessarily exclude the idea of a condition being imposed. One of those conditions would be believing there is such a gift as salvation and yes we do that by faith.

Paul says that we are ‘freely’ justified (Rom. 3:24), and later he describes salvation as a ‘free gift’ (Rom. 6:23). But some claim that we must ‘do’ something, such as be baptized, in order to be saved. I've seen this one turn into a big argument and I don't believe baptism is a requirement for salvation.

So then what must we do to be saved?

In Matthew 7:21 Jesus says, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” Jesus made it clear that merely acknowledging Him as Lord and Master—saying “Lord, Lord”—is not sufficient. To inherit the Kingdom of God, we must do the will of the Father, as He clearly stated.

Jesus wants us to understand that there is more to receiving eternal life than just belief or mental acceptance. Our conviction that He is our Savior must be more than just a warm, comforting thought or intellectual concept. Jesus warns that simply calling on His name or recognizing Him as “Lord” is not enough.

There has to be a change. That's why Jesus told Nicodemus you must be born again.

I'm a firm Believer of lordship salvation. I know that it turns a lot of people off but I believe the reason for that is they may not have a clear understanding of what it is to make Jesus Lord of your life.

While salvation is represented as that which is “freely given,” the Paul nonetheless forcefully argues that these saints were “delivered” and “made free from sin” by virtue of their having “obeyed from the heart that form of teaching” which had been proclaimed to them (Rom. 6:17).

To me it is quite clear that salvation, as a free gift, and the need to obey the Lord, are not mutually exclusive propositions.

I appreciate your statements here, but it begs the question, "Why then do you not believe that baptism is a requirement for salvation?" If obedience to Jesus is essential (and I agree that it is), then when He commanded that "those who believe and are baptized will be saved" He made baptism a condition for the reception of His grace of salvation. He alluded to this also when He was speaking to Nicodemus in John 3:5 when He said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water [baptism] and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

 

[Obadiah]

I appreciate your statements here, but it begs the question, "Why then do you not believe that baptism is a requirement for salvation?" If obedience to Jesus is essential (and I agree that it is), then when He commanded that "those who believe and are baptized will be saved" He made baptism a condition for the reception of His grace of salvation. He alluded to this also when He was speaking to Nicodemus in John 3:5 when He said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water [baptism] and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

No problem. My stance is baptism is an outward display of an inward conviction. Simple as that. So you accept Jesus as your lord and savior, That qualifies you for salvation then go and get saved. A lot of people during the Jesus movement in the early seventies Attended Jesus rallies hosted by chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel at the beach and were saved and baptized at the same time. But I don't think that's the way that it usually goes.

"those who believe and are baptized will be saved"

I think people hear the gospel except Jesus Christ As Lord and then at later date go to baptismal ceremony. What I'm saying is I got nothing against being baptized if it was good enough for Jesus to be baptized by his cousin John then it's good enough for me.

In today's church after the message if they have a Altar call a person can go down to the altar say a prayer and become a Christian. But did they really have a change in heart? I think that baptism comes next in the order of salvation and confirms their confession of faith in Jesus. They are the ones "Who believe in our baptized and will be saved"

As for your next point 'Born of water' refers to a physical birth, specifically being born a Jew. In John 3:5, this phrase is therefore used by Jesus to refer to the natural birth process, with 'water' referring to the amniotic fluid that surrounds the baby in the womb and is present during the birth process. A new believer that has just accepted Jesus Christ is not God understand that process. When considering this passage, it is important to note that nowhere in the context of the passage is baptism even mentioned.

 

[dwight92070]

You operate on the assumption that there is no action that man must take that leads to our reception of salvation.

Dwight - Exactly right! No physical action is necessary.

Where do you get that assumption?

Dwight - It's not an assumption. It's what Jesus Himself said in John 5:28-29 - "What shall we do , so that we may work the works of God? (Obviously leading to salvation) Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you may BELIEVE in Him (that is Jesus Himself) whom He has sent.'

Dwight - The action required by God for salvation is an action of the heart - believing in Jesus. Anyone who truly believes Jesus will recognize that He IS their salvation. The righteous man Simeon was holding Jesus in his arms when Jesus was just 8 days old. Listen to what he prophesied in Luke 2:30: "For my eyes have seen Your salvation, ..." What did he see? He saw the little baby Jesus! He Himself was and IS God's salvation for mankind - PERIOD.

"There is no Scripture that says that, because that assumption is in direct contradiction of Rom 10:9-10.

Dwight - John 5:28-29 says that. Ephesians 2:8-9 says that.

Dwight - Regarding Romans 10:9-10 - the way you interpret it reveals that you have a legalistic streak in you. (which I think is also the reason you believe that a man cannot be saved without being baptized) You take these verses in a wooden literal sense, but when you interpret it that way, your interpretation contradicts other scripture. If it literally means that one cannot be saved unless he verbally confesses that "Jesus is Lord", then the Ethiopian eunuch was not saved, because he did not speak those words. What he said was, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Dwight - In fact, Philip made a mistake (according to your interpretation of Romans 10:9-10) by not even telling the eunuch to "confess 'Jesus is Lord' ". Philip's only requirement (and we know he was being led by the Holy Spirit -Acts 9:29) before baptizing him was that he believed with all his heart.
Dwight - Show me one sermon in the New Testament, where the preacher asked everyone in his audience who wished to be saved to say "Jesus is Lord".
Dwight -Not only that, but both John 5:28-29 and Ephesians 2:8-9 tell us that ONLY FAITH is required by His grace, for salvation. These verses teach no verbal confession is necessary to add to our faith.
Dwight - Therefore Romans 10:9-10 cannot mean what you think it means, or it would contradict the rest of the New Testament, which adds NOTHING to faith in Jesus, as a requirement for salvation - not a confession, not baptism - nothing.
Dwight - Bible teacher Steve Gregg says that righteousness and salvation, spoken of in Romans 10:9-10 are the same event in the person's heart. Dwight - We don't first get righteousness and then later salvation. They both occur at the same time, at the point of being born again, which is when we believed in our heart, according to all of the New Testament. The mention of confessing "Jesus is Lord" simply refers to the fact that if someone truly believes, that confession will come out of his mouth, if not right at the point of salvation, certainly during his Christian life.

Baptism is not just a symbol, it is the entry point. Read the Scriptures again:
"How shall we who died to sin [when did we die to sin?] still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? [We died to sin when we were baptized into Christ Jesus and His death] 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. 5 For IF we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for the one who has died is freed from sin." (Rom 6:2-7)
Notice that the one who is baptized is baptized into Jesus and into His death. And if one has been united with Him in the likeness of His death, then he has died to sin and is o longer a slave to sin.

Thus, it is in baptism that we are united with His death (not before),
Dwight - Your words "not before", the Bible doesn't say that.

- and it is in baptism that we are freed from sin (not before).
Dwight- Again your words "not before", the Bible does not say that.

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over every ruler and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, [when does this happen? It happens when we]
12 having been buried with Him in baptism,

Dwight - Your assumption - these verses do not specifically say that the circumcision of Christ happens in baptism. We know that because baptism is performed with hands, the circumcision of Christ is performed without hands. In other words, it is a spiritual procedure done in the heart, not a ceremony done in a tank of water.
Dwight - the words "having been" are not in the Greek. They should not be included in the quote.

in which [in baptism] you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings" (Col 2:9-13)

Dwight - Yes, these things occur symbolically in baptism.

It is during baptism that the "circumcision performed without hands" takes place.

Dwight - Christ does not need a body of water to perform this spiritual procedure.

It is during baptism that we are buried with Him, and we are also raised from the dead with Him because of our faith in the working of God.

Dwight - Yes, symbolically those things are "acted out".

He said that everyone who believes in Jesus and is baptized will be saved.

Dwight - Yes, and I believe that. However, no mention is made of someone who believes and yet is not baptized. I agree that they should get baptized, but for whatever reason(maybe lack of good teaching, maybe there was no water readily available, so they put it off and later forgot about it) they did not get baptized. The one who trusts in Him, will obey this command.

Dwight - I agree, any believer who is not baptized, should do so yesterday.

Where is the command not to baptize nonChristians?

Matthew 28:19 Jesus commands us to baptize disciples, that is, believers. So there is probably no command to NOT baptize unbelievers, but why would you? That's like having nonbelievers participate in communion. It's not for them. Or like a Christian marrying a nonbeliever - of course there IS a command against that. Baptism is for new Christians, not for the lost.




Not mixed up at all. Our baptism is the physical representation of being buried with Christ and arising to new life in Christ.

Dwight - I agree.

When we are passing through the water the Holy Spirit is entering into our life, changing us, and removing our sin just as is said in the passages above.

Dwight - Make up your mind. It can't be a representation of something on the one hand, but then also on the other hand, the Holy Spirit actually enters into us and actually removes our sin. No, these latter two events must occur before baptism.

 

[Doug Brents]

No problem. My stance is baptism is an outward display of an inward conviction. Simple as that. So you accept Jesus as your lord and savior, That qualifies you for salvation then go and get saved. A lot of people during the Jesus movement in the early seventies Attended Jesus rallies hosted by chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel at the beach and were saved and baptized at the same time. But I don't think that's the way that it usually goes.

Ok, so accepting Jesus as your Lord and savior "qualifies" you for salvation. So then you "go and get saved"? That is what baptism is: the point at which you "get saved" (at least according to Rom 6:1-6 and Col 2:11-14).

I think people hear the gospel except Jesus Christ As Lord and then at later date go to baptismal ceremony. What I'm saying is I got nothing against being baptized if it was good enough for Jesus to be baptized by his cousin John then it's good enough for me.

If baptism is good enough for Jesus then of course it is good enough for everyone else. But that has nothing to do with whether a person is saved before or during baptism. In the two passages above, both state that the person going into baptism is the old man, the man of sin, the dead man. And the man coming out of baptism is the new, living, man without sin. If someone is saved before they are baptized, then they would have not sin going in. But both of those passages say that it is in baptism that sin is removed and the union with Christ takes place.

In today's church after the message if they have a Altar call a person can go down to the altar say a prayer and become a Christian. But did they really have a change in heart? I think that baptism comes next in the order of salvation and confirms their confession of faith in Jesus. They are the ones "Who believe in our baptized and will be saved"

If a person confesses Jesus at an "alter call", that does not make him a Christian. A person becomes a Christian (a Christ follower) and is saved when they have done all the things that God has said lead to receiving salvation, because to "believe" and not to obey is not to believe.

As for your next point 'Born of water' refers to a physical birth, specifically being born a Jew. In John 3:5, this phrase is therefore used by Jesus to refer to the natural birth process, with 'water' referring to the amniotic fluid that surrounds the baby in the womb and is present during the birth process. A new believer that has just accepted Jesus Christ is not God understand that process. When considering this passage, it is important to note that nowhere in the context of the passage is baptism even mentioned.

No, the water in John 3:5 is not the amniotic fluid from natural birth. Everyone alive has passed through that water, so it is not even a consideration in this discussion. If it were, then Jesus would have been saying that no one that was never born can be saved. No, the water to which Jesus is referring is the water of baptism, just as 1 Pet 3:21 is talking about the water of baptism now saves us, and the passages in Rom and Col above show the action of the Holy Spirit during baptism as being the action that removes our sins. But again, this process takes place during water baptism, not before.

 

[Titus]

Thanks for the like and response,

But some claim that we must ‘do’ something

Acts 2:37,
- men and brethren what shall we  do

Question did Peter say, "What? Do? You don't have to do anything you have already believed!!!
The next verse gives the answer to what they must do,
Acts 2:38.

Acts 9:6,
- So he(Paul) trembling and astonished said, Lord what do you want me to do
Then the Lord said to him Arise and go into the city and you will be told what you must do

Acts 10:6,
- he is lodging with Simon a tanner whose house is by the sea, he will tell you what you must do

Acts 16:30,
- and he brought them out and said, Sirs, what must I  do to be saved

Friend, I've taught you there are conditions that must be met to obtain Gods grace.
Obedience to Gods new testament commandments are those requirements/conditions.

Therefore can we be saved by disobeying Gods new covenant commandments?
Acts 10:47-48,
- can anyone forbid water that these should not be immersed who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have
And Peter commanded them to be immersed in the name of the Lord...

Can we get saved by faith alone apart from obeying Jesus' gospel command to be baptized?
Mark 16:15-16,
- and Jesus said to them(apostles) go into all the world and preach the  gospel to every creature
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned

This gospel has the direct commandment to be immersed.
That is the same gospel Peter preached to Cornelius in Acts 10:47-48.
Jesus commanded Peter in Mark 16 to preach this gospel to all the world.
Peter did just that in Acts chapter 10!!!

Question: Could Peter refuse to preach the gospel Jesus commanded him and still be saved himself?
Could Peter preach to the whole world to believe but not obey the commandment of baptism to be saved?
Could Cornelius ignore Peter's commandment to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and still be saved?

If so The gospel of Jesus Christ saves by disobedience to His gospel commandments.
Would you preach a gospel of faith alone and disobedience to Jesus for salvation?

 

[Obadiah]

No, the water in John 3:5 is not the amniotic fluid from natural birth. Everyone alive has passed through that water, so it is not even a consideration in this discussion. If it were, then Jesus would have been saying that no one that was never born can be saved. No, the water to which Jesus is referring is the water of baptism, just as 1 Pet 3:21 is talking about the water of baptism now saves us, and the passages in Rom and Col above show the action of the Holy Spirit during baptism as being the action that removes our sins. But again, this process takes place during water baptism, not before.

That's what being "Born again" means. Nicodemus was little familiar with water baptism. But that's not what Jesus was talking about when he said you must be born again, they're two different things.

How did the thief in the cross get saved when no baptism was available for him?

Please note Water is the symbol of cleansing. When Jesus takes possession of our lives, when we love Him with all our heart, the sins of the past are forgiven and forgotten.

That's why I say baptism is an outward display of an inward change. Symbolically it's saying our sins are washed away we are clean from the inside out, salvation is what I'm talking about.

 

[Obadiah]

Thanks for the like and response,

Acts 2:37,
- men and brethren what shall we  do

Question did Peter say, "What? Do? You don't have to do anything you have already believed!!!
The next verse gives the answer to what they must do,
Acts 2:38.

Acts 9:6,
- So he(Paul) trembling and astonished said, Lord what do you want me to do
Then the Lord said to him Arise and go into the city and you will be told what you must do

Acts 10:6,
- he is lodging with Simon a tanner whose house is by the sea, he will tell you what you must do

Acts 16:30,
- and he brought them out and said, Sirs, what must I  do to be saved

Friend, I've taught you there are conditions that must be met to obtain Gods grace.
Obedience to Gods new testament commandments are those requirements/conditions.

Therefore can we be saved by disobeying Gods new covenant commandments?
Acts 10:47-48,
- can anyone forbid water that these should not be immersed who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have
And Peter commanded them to be immersed in the name of the Lord...

Can we get saved by faith alone apart from obeying Jesus' gospel command to be baptized?
Mark 16:15-16,
- and Jesus said to them(apostles) go into all the world and preach the  gospel to every creature
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned

This gospel has the direct commandment to be immersed.
That is the same gospel Peter preached to Cornelius in Acts 10:47-48.
Jesus commanded Peter in Mark 16 to preach this gospel to all the world.
Peter did just that in Acts chapter 10!!!

Question: Could Peter refuse to preach the gospel Jesus commanded him and still be saved himself?
Could Peter preach to the whole world to believe but not obey the commandment of baptism to be saved?
Could Cornelius ignore Peter's commandment to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and still be saved?

If so The gospel of Jesus Christ saves by disobedience to His gospel commandments.
Would you preach a gospel of faith alone and disobedience to Jesus for salvation?

Answer to your last question... no. Actually I'm on my way out the door to lead a Bible studies our church. It's called "Frauds, Fakes, And Dangerous Counterfeits." I'll comment on it later.

 

[Doug Brents]

Dwight - Exactly right! No physical action is necessary.
So you must not have ever read Rom 10:9-10.

Dwight - It's not an assumption. It's what Jesus Himself said in John 5:28-29 - "What shall we do , so that we may work the works of God? (Obviously leading to salvation) Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you may BELIEVE in Him (that is Jesus Himself) whom He has sent.'
You are interpreting "believe" based on the modern understanding of the word, taking it to mean "intellectual assent". But that is not what "belief" is in Scripture. The word translated "believe" is the Greek word "pistis" which means faith. It is not intellectual assent, but a living, active faith (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26) that is the "work of God".

Dwight - The action required by God for salvation is an action of the heart - believing in Jesus. Anyone who truly believes Jesus will recognize that He IS their salvation.
No, not only an "action of the heart", but physical action as well. "with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation"
The righteous man Simeon was holding Jesus in his arms when Jesus was just 8 days old. Listen to what he prophesied in Luke 2:30: "For my eyes have seen Your salvation, ..." What did he see? He saw the little baby Jesus! He Himself was and IS God's salvation for mankind - PERIOD.
Absolutely, and if you are "in Him" then you will be saved. And how do we come to be "in Him"? Through baptism (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14, Gal 3:27).

Dwight - John 5:28-29 says that.
"Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment."
Where does this passage say that there is no physical action that leads to salvation? This passage actually points to us being judged by what we do, not just what we gave intellectual assent to.
Ephesians 2:8-9 says that.
Oh really?
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
That is more like it. This actually does say that salvation is not of works.... Or does it? No, actually it does not. It says that our salvation is not the RESULT of our works. It is the result of Jesus work, but we still must qualify to receive that gift THROUGH FAITH. And as has already been discussed, faith is not real unless there is action with it. If there is no action, then the conduit of faith through which grace is given to us does not exist and the grace never reaches us.

Dwight - Regarding Romans 10:9-10 - the way you interpret it reveals that you have a legalistic streak in you. (which I think is also the reason you believe that a man cannot be saved without being baptized) You take these verses in a wooden literal sense, but when you interpret it that way, your interpretation contradicts other scripture. If it literally means that one cannot be saved unless he verbally confesses that "Jesus is Lord", then the Ethiopian eunuch was not saved, because he did not speak those words. What he said was, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Indeed, confessing belief in the fact that Jesus is the Son of God is confessing Jesus as LORD, for God is LORD, and if Jesus is the Son of God (thus God also), then Jesus is also LORD. And that is the confession that Jesus Himself said He would build His Church upon (Matt 16:18).

Dwight - In fact, Philip made a mistake (according to your interpretation of Romans 10:9-10) by not even telling the eunuch to "confess 'Jesus is Lord' ". Philip's only requirement (and we know he was being led by the Holy Spirit -Acts 9:29) before baptizing him was that he believed with all his heart.
He had to believe, and he had to confess his belief in Jesus. He also must have exhibited a repentant heart to Phillip, because that is not mentioned in this passage, although it is also a condition for receiving salvation.

Dwight -Not only that, but both John 5:28-29 and Ephesians 2:8-9 tell us that ONLY FAITH is required by His grace, for salvation. These verses teach no verbal confession is necessary to add to our faith.
And faith without action is dead, useless, and meaningless. Faith encompasses all the actions that Scripture says "lead to" or "result in" our receiving salvation.

Dwight - Bible teacher Steve Gregg says that righteousness and salvation, spoken of in Romans 10:9-10 are the same event in the person's heart.
Oh wow, now that is the person I am going to hang my salvation and the fate of my soul on. NOT!!
Who cares what some faceless name says. What matters is what Scripture says.

Dwight - We don't first get righteousness and then later salvation. They both occur at the same time, at the point of being born again, which is when we believed in our heart, according to all of the New Testament. The mention of confessing "Jesus is Lord" simply refers to the fact that if someone truly believes, that confession will come out of his mouth, if not right at the point of salvation, certainly during his Christian life.
How then does the verbal confession RESULT IN salvation?

Dwight - Your words "not before", the Bible doesn't say that.
Yes, it does actually. As Rom 6 and Col 2 both say, it is the dead, sinful, lost soul that goes into baptism, and an alive, sinless, saved soul that comes out of the water united to Christ and with the Holy Spirit in residence.

Dwight - Your assumption - these verses do not specifically say that the circumcision of Christ happens in baptism. We know that because baptism is performed with hands, the circumcision of Christ is performed without hands. In other words, it is a spiritual procedure done in the heart, not a ceremony done in a tank of water.
Yes, actually they do.
"Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?"
"having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith"
When we are baptized INTO His death, we enter into Christ and relationship with Him. We are buried with Him IN BAPTISM, and in baptism we are also raised with Him.

Dwight - the words "having been" are not in the Greek. They should not be included in the quote.
The KJV does not include those words, but every one of the other "word for word" translations include those words or ones with similar meaning.

Dwight - Yes, these things occur symbolically in baptism.
Not just symbolically, but in fact. And they do, as you just agreed, occur DURING baptism.

Dwight - Christ does not need a body of water to perform this spiritual procedure.
He does not, but He chose to make it so, and so that is the way it is.

Dwight - Yes, symbolically those things are "acted out".
Not just "acted out" but accomplished by the Holy Spirit.

Dwight - Yes, and I believe that. However, no mention is made of someone who believes and yet is not baptized. I agree that they should get baptized, but for whatever reason(maybe lack of good teaching, maybe there was no water readily available, so they put it off and later forgot about it) they did not get baptized.
Anyone who "believes" (intellectual assent) but does not obey doesn't really believe.

The one who trusts in Him, will obey this command.
And if he doesn't obey this command, then he doesn't really trust in Him, and so He is not Lord, and so salvation is not received.

Dwight - I agree, any believer who is not baptized, should do so yesterday.
A person is not a "believer" (by which I assume (forgive me if I am wrong) that you mean saved) until they have been baptized. But Scripture agrees with your desire for haste.

Matthew 28:19 Jesus commands us to baptize disciples, that is, believers. So there is probably no command to NOT baptize unbelievers, but why would you? That's like having nonbelievers participate in communion. It's not for them. Or like a Christian marrying a nonbeliever - of course there IS a command against that. Baptism is for new Christians, not for the lost.
Disciple simply means learner, follower. One can be a follower and not be saved. Many followers are still learning, and have not reached the point of learning to accept the Gospel as truth and be obedient to it and be saved. So we are to baptize learners who have accepted the Gospel, and so make them saved followers. Baptism most certainly is for the Lost. Jesus said that you cannot enter into the Kingdom of God unless you are born again of water and the Spirit (baptism).

 

[Doug Brents]

That's what being "Born again" means. Nicodemus was little familiar with water baptism. But that's not what Jesus was talking about when he said you must be born again, they're two different things.

Yes, Nicodemus was very familiar with baptism. Baptism was a common practice in Jewish culture of that time.

How did the thief in the cross get saved when no baptism was available for him?

The thief was promised paradise by Christ before Christ died. And as Christ said, He had the power and authority to forgive sin while He was alive (Luke 5:24). So Jesus was well within His power and authority to forgive the thief base solely on his confession that Jesus was Lord.

Please note Water is the symbol of cleansing. When Jesus takes possession of our lives, when we love Him with all our heart, the sins of the past are forgiven and forgotten.

And Jesus takes possession of our lives when we are baptized and the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us and we are united to Jesus' death and resurrection.

That's why I say baptism is an outward display of an inward change. Symbolically it's saying our sins are washed away we are clean from the inside out, salvation is what I'm talking about.

Please show me where you get "outward display of an inward change" in Scripture. I have looked all over for it, but I cannot find it (although I hear people chant it like it is the next great thing).

Baptism is, according to Scripture, the last step we take as a lost soul, and the step that brings us into communion with Christ.

 

[Obadiah]

Yes, Nicodemus was very familiar with baptism. Baptism was a common practice in Jewish culture of that time.

The thief was promised paradise by Christ before Christ died. And as Christ said, He had the power and authority to forgive sin while He was alive (Luke 5:24). So Jesus was well within His power and authority to forgive the thief base solely on his confession that Jesus was Lord.

And Jesus takes possession of our lives when we are baptized and the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us and we are united to Jesus' death and resurrection.

Please show me where you get "outward display of an inward change" in Scripture. I have looked all over for it, but I cannot find it (although I hear people chant it like it is the next great thing).

Baptism is, according to Scripture, the last step we take as a lost soul, and the step that brings us into communion with Christ.

Yes, Nicodemus was very familiar with baptism. Baptism was a common practice in Jewish culture of that time.

The thief was promised paradise by Christ before Christ died. And as Christ said, He had the power and authority to forgive sin while He was alive (Luke 5:24). So Jesus was well within His power and authority to forgive the thief base solely on his confession that Jesus was Lord.

And Jesus takes possession of our lives when we are baptized and the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us and we are united to Jesus' death and resurrection.

Please show me where you get "outward display of an inward change" in Scripture. I have looked all over for it, but I cannot find it (although I hear people chant it like it is the next great thing).

Baptism is, according to Scripture, the last step we take as a lost soul, and the step that brings us into communion with Christ.

The first thing I would say is that the thief on the cross was told by Jesus that that very day he would be with him in paradise. He was not baptized. I know he’s a special case. I don’t think you build a theology of baptism on the thief on the cross. But one thing it says is baptism is not an absolute necessity, because it wasn’t in his case.

 

[Doug Brents]

The first thing I would say is that the thief on the cross was told by Jesus that that very day he would be with him in paradise. He was not baptized. I know he’s a special case. I don’t think you build a theology of baptism on the thief on the cross. But one thing it says is baptism is not an absolute necessity, because it wasn’t in his case.

The thief died under the OLD COVENANT. He was not subject to the NEW COVENANT's commands or stipulations. The New Covenant did not come into effect, at the very earliest, until Jesus died, possibly not until He was resurrected, and at the very latest at Pentecost. But it certainly was not in effect when the thief was promised paradise. He is not relevant in any way to this discussion.

 

[Obadiah]

Actually the New Covenant started at the Last Supper and the Thief on the cross has a lot to do with the topic of works salvation as he didn't do any he only believed in Jesus

 

[Obadiah]

Yes, Nicodemus was very familiar with baptism. Baptism was a common practice in Jewish culture of that time.

The thief was promised paradise by Christ before Christ died. And as Christ said, He had the power and authority to forgive sin while He was alive (Luke 5:24). So Jesus was well within His power and authority to forgive the thief base solely on his confession that Jesus was Lord.

And Jesus takes possession of our lives when we are baptized and the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us and we are united to Jesus' death and resurrection.

Please show me where you get "outward display of an inward change" in Scripture. I have looked all over for it, but I cannot find it (although I hear people chant it like it is the next great thing).

Baptism is, according to Scripture, the last step we take as a lost soul, and the step that brings us into communion with Christ.

Believeing in Jesus is the last steps we take as a lost soul. Once we believe in him we're saved.

 

[dwight92070]

Correction in #932, I referenced John 5:28-29. That's a mistake. It should be John 6:28-29, where Jesus makes it crystal clear that the ONLY work necessary for salvation is to believe in Jesus - not water baptism, not confessing that Jesus is Lord. These are good works which should be done AFTER one is saved by believing in Jesus.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

This is SALVATION 101:

Romans 10:​

9 That if thou shalt CONFESS with THY MOUTH the Lord Jesus, and shalt BELIEVE IN THINE HEART that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt BE SAVED.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the NAME of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[Titus]

To me it is quite clear that salvation, as a free gift, and the need to obey the Lord, are not mutually exclusive propositions

Hello,
I'm still wondering if you believe Peter could be saved without preaching the gospel that Jesus commanded him to preach? i.e. Mark 16:15-16

Also could Cornelius have been saved if he did not obey Peter's gospel commandment to be water immersed in the name of the Lord, Acts 10:47-48.

Thanks