Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
yes, he came as flames of fire
That is not jesus baptizing us in fire.
yes. it is nuts.
if we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves. and there is no truth in us..
A stern warning from the apostle john
"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
- Start date
That is not jesus baptizing us in fire.
if we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves. and there is no truth in us..
A stern warning from the apostle john
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
or maybe you excepted the non dispensational false doctrine that prophecy can be set aside. it does not have to be literally fulfilled?
even though at least half of all OT prophecy was literally fulfilled to a T up to the time of Christ, and God himself said the test of a true prophet is they say things will happen and they do?
Doug Brents
Active Member
Submitting to the will of God to do what He commanded does not constitute a "salvation of works". It was not the works of Israel that caused the walls of Jericho to fall down, but the walls would not have fallen if they had not obeyed the Lord's command. And the same goes for all the other people and groups told to do things that had a reward tied to them in the OT.
No, it is not.
Certainly His is a completed act. But that does not apply the benefit of that completed act to every individual. If it did, then universalism would be correct (which it is not). No, His act made salvation possible, but each individual must take possession of it individually. Just as the Promised Land was already owned by Israel before they ever crossed Jordan, but they had to take possession of it through the actions of war, driving the inhabitants out of the land.
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
You just said lets receive the baptism of the Spirit .
You act as though we have not yet received this ,
Which does kinda concern me .
Again i know about fiery trials of faith
But surely you are not saying that one does not RECIEVE the Baptism of the SPIRIT
UNTIL they are persecuted . I sure hope not anyway .
Though yes we are surely gonna face trials . For now they have been quite light .
Mainly words and people shunning us . But the religious tolerance , abraham peace accords
intefaiths grand plan , WILL soon cause all that did not conform
to their version of a god and a love they taught as GOD and HIS LOVE To be persecuted . .
Tribulations will increase .
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@Red Baker, in all truth, none of that indicates, let alone proves, that Cornelius was born again before the encounter with Peter. I understand why you want to think that he was. Otherwise, your soteriology goes up in flames. Your argument is based entirely upon the false doctrine of Total Depravity.
First, it doesn't say that Cornlius heard the voice of Jesus Christ; rather, it says he heard the voice of and angel of God in a vision.
Yes, that is a reference to the new birth, being born again. Nothing there says anything about being born again before being saved.
And that with very good reason. Because the Bible does indeed support that (Eph 1:13; Col 2:11-13)
It is God's demonstration that He, as Peter stated in Acts 10:34-35, shows no partiality all, Jews and Gentiles alike, are acceptable to Him
None of those verses actually say what you are reading into them based upon your wrongful soteriology.
Again, your adherence to the false doctrine of Total Depravity has blinded you to the real truth.
Being accepted by God does not mean that they were already saved. Again, you hold to a false soteriology.
You conclude what the Bible does not say.
No one that I know of has ever said otherwise. Here once again, you assume what is not there.
It is that desire to hear and obey the gospel which leads God to justify and regenerate the sinner (Ehp 1:13).
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
Evil , lusts which conceive sin
That is still present in our flesh . Oh this flesh
and its contrary nature will still pop lustful evil thoughts into our minds .
But we darn sure dont have to be slave to it .
CHOOSE ye this day to HEED the SPIRIT and its unctions
against such wicked and lustful temptations when they do arise .
And remember to keep the pattern for all things which GOD made sure
to have the apostels to have a way for us to be also reminded of these things . IN THEM LETTERS and gospels
and etc .
In other words IF we had the same grave approach , the same sincerity
about things as did the apostels , THAT WOULD have been a massive help .
But many have downplayed sin and error and rather have made a way
for leaven to come in and literally take this people down .
Where are the grave men . Where are those
who had the same approach towards sin and error , as did those apostels .
Cause all i hear today
is some kind of excuse , by many , that often makes the few grave ones
out to seem as judgemental as haters , as legalistic .
THIS is why i have for so long a time
been pleading with , EVEN BEGGING at times , warning folks to get back INTO the BIBLE
for just themselves . we had been amazed at how differently
the apostels , AND YES CHRIST did things . we been cherry picker taught things
That have led to the destruction and NOT the edficiation of the churches .
NOWS TIS HIGH TIME to be grave , sincere
And at the very least pray for men who do such .
charismaticlady
Active Member
All I know is His Word. Revelation 12 and 13 along with Romans 11 and 2 Thess. 2:8-12 makes what will happen very clear. Who do you think is "the woman" in Revelation 12? The church? Think again. Those who believe in Jesus are in the last verse of chapter 12.
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
yes my friend . the simple beauty of it is
And WHO DID abraham BELEIVE . GOD ALL MIGHTY
and thus BELEIVING HIM HE obeyed HIM .
WHEN GOD SPEAKS
those whose faith is in him DO BELEIVE HIS WORDS and DO THEM .
And now a word .
From long , long ago came this word and IT IS TRUTH and was Spoken BY THE TRUTH .
And now for the word spoken long ago .
HE who is of GOD hears the words OF GOD
He who is not of GOD hears not His words . JESUS SPOKE THAT
even as he also told
them
about abraham . HOW HE heard GOD
and yet how these men DID NOT and actually went about to Kill Him .
HE who is of GOD hears us
and HE who is not of GOD hears not us . JOHN would later write that too my friend .
SO allow a small summation .
All other religoins , to include atheists too
DO NOT HEAR GOD . For had they heard HIM
they would have HEARD HIS CHRIST and had repented of their wicked relgion and mindsets and proclaimed faith IN JESUS THE CHRIST . FOR JESUS CAME FORTH OF THE FATHER .
I think you already know why i am reminding us of this my freind .
because interfaith interreligious dialgoue
Will BE THE END OF ANY AND OF ALL who do enter into its convenant
and beleive its lie . The second death will be their end .
NO LIE is of the TRUTH
AS NO LIE IS OF GOD . But beware men for men can and do lie
and beware the cry of the father of lies WHO has seduced many
CAUSE we darn sure know HE CAN LIE .
charismaticlady
Active Member
Paul did not struggle with lawless sins unto death, only personality immature fruits of the Spirit that he finally grew out of as seen in his last letter when read in order. But he never stopped abiding in Jesus, even for a moment.
Read Romans 7 slowly and grasp that verses 5-6 are about a Christian. We are no longer "in the flesh." The chapter is about those in the flesh still and under the law as seen in verse 9 "covet." And 14-25 is for sinners. Not Paul nor Spirit filled Christians. Romans 8:1-2 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."
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Seabass
Active Member
No verse teaches the idea of salvation BEFORE obedience.
--Paul said "obedience UNTO righteousness" NOT obedience because one already is righteous, Rom 6:18
--Paul said those Romans obeyed from the heart, then freed from sin NOT obeyed from the heart because they already were freed from sin.
--John 3:18 he that believeth not is condemned already---he that keeps on in disobdient unbelief is condemned already not saved already. Verse 16, it's those that keep on believing who should (subjunctive mood) not perish. Subjunctive mood "is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances." -Strong's. Meaning 'not perishing' or being saved may or may not occur depending if one believes or not. Hence salvation is not dependant upon a random, unconditional choice God made about individuals before the word begin apart from the free will of man.
--In Acts 2 they asked Peter what shall we do, Peter did NOT say 'do nothing to be saved' but commanded them to obey through repenting and be baptized for remission of sins....obedience before salvation.
Romans 10:10 believeth UNTO righteousness NOT believeth because already righteous...obedience first by believing THEN righteous.
====================
1 Pet 1:2
"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
The verse says nothing about an election taking place before the world began where God UNCODNTIONALLY, RANDOMLY elected certain individuals to be saved and certain to be lost apart from their free will, apart from obedience to God.
The verse says foreknowledge NOT foreordained, these two things are not the same. I can foreknow what will happen tomorrow (sun rises in the east and sets in the west) but that does NOT mean I foreordained, caused it to happen. God foreknew those that obey the gospel will be saved and those who obey not will be lost (2 Thess 1:8) but that does NOT mean God randomly foreordained/caused certain individuals to obey or forordained/caused certain ones to not obey.
1 Pet 1:2 says nothing about God randomly, unconditionally FOREORDAINING certain individuals to be saved before the world began apart from their free will, apart from obedience to God. What it does say is that God FOREKNEW the redemptive plan, He FOREKNEW the means by which the election (those chosen) would CONDITIONALLY take place "in Him" Eph 1:4..."According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" God foreknew it would be those IN CHRIST that make up the chosen opposed to those not in Christ and it takes obedience to be in Christ (Gal 3:27). No verse says God FOREORDAINED certain individuals to be in Christ UNCONDITIONALLY. The context in Eph 1 says nothing at all about God unconditionally foreordaining certain individuals but it does say God foreknew the traits of those who choose to be IN Christ. God FOREKNEW those CONDITIONALLY in Him would have the traits of being 'holy' and 'without blame"
This election involves "sanctification of the Spirit" NOT a random, unconditional choice God made before the word began about certain individuals being sancitified apart from obedience to the Spirit's word. Sanctification is by the word Jn 17:17; Eph 5:26. The SPirit is the Author of the word that instructs man of his lost condition and how to be saved from that lost state. It is those who chose (not unconditionally FOREORDAINED before the world began) to obey those instructions that will be "in Christ" and of the elect holy and without blame hence men are sanctified by the word, born again by the word 1 Pet 1:23 and NOT sanctified or born again by a random unconditional choice God made before the world began APART from the Spirit's word, APART from obedience to the Spirit's word.
This election also involves 'unto obedience'. The Spirit sancifies by His word (Jn 17:17) and it is God's desire men be motivated by the Spirit's word to obey it and be saved, be of the chosen/elect. And it's through this obedience to the word men's souls are purified..."ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth" 1 Pet 1;23. Purification comes by choosing to obey the truth, the word of the Spirit not by a random choice God made before the world began apart from man's obedience to the truth.
So the election involves God's foreknowledge of the plan of salvation (not unconditional foreordaining of certain men) in foreknowing men would be saved in Christ (Eph 1:4) not UNconditionally foreordaining certain men to be in Christ apart from obedience (Gal 3:27) and the role of the SPirit's word in sanctifying those who are obedient unto that word.
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Seabass
Active Member
It is up to man to choose to believe in his own heart (Rom 10:9-10) hence those that do not believe are lost due to their own choice in not believing.
Seabass
Active Member
"obedience UNTO righteousness" Rom 6:16. obedience first, obedience BEFORE righteousness.
Rom 6:17-18;
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
order of events:
1) servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin (justified)
They became servants of righteousness.........they became servants of righteous by CONDITIONALLY choosing to "obey from the heart" and not unconditionally already born into the world as servants of righteousness due to a random choice God made before the world began. No salvation/righteousness BEFORE obedience.
Dizerner
Active Member
Peculiar view.
It was symbolized as fire for a reason, and Christ foretold it, it was not someone other than Jesus sending that.
Fire stands for purification and intensity, and is continually associated with God's glory and intimate presence.
Not only was the bush on fire, and the whole mountain God descended completely on fire, a pillar of fire following them, but indeed God's very throne in heaven is described as completely aflame with his angels being called "burning ones" and "fiery flames" or "burning torches" before his throne. Indeed God is described fundamentally as a consuming fire for the elect, and not just the lost.
Scripture is not just negative concerning fire.
The baptism of the Spirit and fire are not meant to be taken as two different things, but are clearly both addressed to Jesus' disciples and used in a positive and unified sense.
Seabass
Active Member
It takes much work to not understand the simplicity of Rom 6:16.
There is only one of two fates awaiting man;
1) condemnation
2) salvation
Since each one must meet one of these two fates Paul therefore says we each are serving either one of two masters;
1) sin unto death (condemnation)
or
2) obedience unto righteousness (salvation)
Faith only erroneously claims (having cited Rom 11:6) "no works" at all, no works of any kind including obedience are necessary to salvation which means faith only rejects serving 'obedience unto righteousness'" leaving only the master of "sin unto death' to serve.
"Sin unto death" .....sin IS disobedience, sin is the opposite of obedience...... "sin unto death" is in opposition to "obedience unto righteousness".
Seabass
Active Member
YEs, faith onlyists take Rom 11:6 out of context then use it to declare that obedience is not even need to be of God, when the immediate context clearly shows in OT times those that were of God were the ones that OBEYED God by not bowing to Baal and those of God in the 'present time) (NT dispensation) are of election of grace, that is, those who obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thess 1:8).
Hence only those that are of God, in God's grace are those who conditionally obey God...not a single example of those who live in continued defiance and disobedience to God being in God's grace. Under the OT during Judaism the Jews were God's chosen people but from Rom 10:1-3 those Jews are now lost in the present time (NT dispensation) according to Paul, no longer in God's grace. why? Because they would not obey God, they would not submit to the righteousness of God..they would not believe, not confess with the mouth, (Rom 10:9-10) would not obey the gospel (Rom 10:16)
I earlier showed through Romans Paul required obedience (obedience of faith; obedience unto righteousness; obeyed from the heart then freed from sin etc) and Paul did not require obedience to be saved then contradict himself in Rom 11:6 by saying no obedience is necessary to being saved. Paul is NOT contrasting grace from obedience but grace from works of merit.
Noah's obedience to God in building ark as God commanded is how he received God's grace in being saved from the flood...his obedience was therefore not a work of merit. As long as one will not see that obedience and works of merit are two different things, one will not understand the Bible.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
If your a child of God you have received it.
if you have a question on what I said. please ask. don't assume
I was speaking in general terms. for the world.. Lets recieve the baptism of the spirit..
not even close
Yes. God never promised peace or lack of trials and tribulations in fact he said expect them. then find the peace that he gives.. because as paul said to be absent from the body is to be present, hence he considered all he suffered a momentary light affliction
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Most people I see downplay sin are either licentious or legalistic.
Licentious says I can sin all i want it does not matter
and a legalist must lower the law so they can actually keep it. since their salvation is based on merit. and not grace.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
amen
the woman is in reality the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
the seed in christ
and her offspring would be the church (us) which would also include the children of Abraham who get saved.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
stop trying to downplay sin
if you stumble in one sin (break one command) your guilty of all
I have studied romans 7 in great detail. it is all in present tense. nothing in pauls conversation is about any past life. it is his present condition and his struggle and war he and we all have between the spirit and the flesh.
People who claim they do not have this battle. I just have to question them
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
This is rejected in the text itself
Matt 3: 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
The baptism of the spirit is referenced by the winnowing fan. it separates the wheat from the chaff. and puts the wheat in the barn.
The baptism of fire. a different baptism, is where the chaff is baptized into a fire that shall never be quenched.
again, Heelfire is the only fire that fits this description as I showed yesterday
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