Why All Is Not Ordained

[The Rogue Tomato]

So the Gospel isn't the "Word of God"?

Not in the context of that verse, no. You want to shorten the verse to say, "Faith comes by hearing the word of God/Christ". But that's not what the verse says.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Not in the context of that verse, no. You want to shorten the verse to say, "Faith comes by hearing the word of God/Christ". But that's not what the verse says.

I don't want to shorten anything.

I'll believe the Scriptures. You're quoting a rather poor English translation.

1Co 14:36 Did the word of God begin with you, or did it come to you alone?

Rom 10:17 Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ.

Notice the "preached word of Christ".....

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I don't want to shorten anything.

I'll believe the Scriptures. You're quoting a rather poor English translation.

1Co 14:36 Did the word of God begin with you, or did it come to you alone?

Rom 10:17 Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ.

Notice the "preached word of Christ".....

That's your favorite cop-out. Are you now going to say it's because the Greek is a mistranslation? Because the Greek says nothing about the "preached word of Christ". Maybe you think the "original Aramaic" (if that even exists) backs up your translation. If so, produce the original Aramaic and prove it.

 

[TomL]

Lazarus was dead and entombed. Jesus was warned not to go in because it would stink. Jesus called Lazarus and he rose from the dead. Did Lazarus hear? No, his physical body did not hear. He was dead. But when Jesus commands, the command is always fulfilled.

That's why faith comes from hearing, but you won't get faith if you can't hear. Hearing comes from the word of Christ/God. Hearing comes when Christ says so.

Scripture disputes your claim

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Scripture disputes your claim

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

How does this verse make sense if everyone has the ability to see, hear, and perceive?

Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That's your favorite cop-out.

Nothing is a "cop-out" to me. I go where the information leads me.

Are you now going to say it's because the Greek is a mistranslation?

In review and for your education..... there are basically two competing manuscript sources in the NT. Both are Greek.

Because the Greek says nothing about the "preached word of Christ". Maybe You think the "original Aramaic" (if that even exists) backs up your translation. If so, produce the original Aramaic and prove it.

You're the one that was referencing an Aramaic source from the Talmud Targum for the book of Job. (a horrible paraphrase) There is no Hebrew text to be found from Qumran and you didn't even know it.

So don't try to lecture me on the subject.

I don't target the Aramaic tradition for inclusion at any level.

I posted the NET translation which rightfully included "preaching" due to the previous statement made in verse #8

"that is, the word of faith that we preach"......

Also. The Greek source uses the word "ῥῆμα (rhēma). Which is the spoken word. rhēma literally means "utterance".

So take what I've said here and "VET IT" to your little heart's content. Go for it. No. I'm not asking you to go to the veterinarian. There is context to my use of "vet".

 

[praise_yeshua]

How does this verse make sense if everyone has the ability to see, hear, and perceive?

Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

Weren't they evil.... just like you claim you were?

These are the same people that God offered to completely destroy

Exo 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

You certain know how to pick them when it comes to trying to prove there are some different......

 

[TomL]

How does this verse make sense if everyone has the ability to see, hear, and perceive?

Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

First let me note you did not address the verses quoted

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Second you assume Deut 29:4 means what?

They needed a change to their being before they could understand or see?

Or God had not explained the significance of the events when he led them out of the desert?

Or they had not yet come to understand. but would as God would teach them through various trials and discipline see in Ch 30:1-10.

Through this they would learn their proper way to relate to God and alternate sources which would seek to take the place of God

The first understanding which you would affirm would be contrary to the verses posted so it cannot be right

It is also contrary to what we see in the very next chapter

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

thus should be ruled out

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

First let me note you did not address the verses quoted

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Second you assume Deut 29:4 means what?

They needed a change to their being before they could understand or see?

Or God had not explained the significance of the events when he led them out of the desert?

Or they had not yet come to understand. but would as God would teach them through various trials and discipline see in Ch 30:1-10.

Through this they would learn their proper way to relate to God and alternate sources which would seek to take the place of God

The first understanding which you would affirm would be contrary to the verses posted so it cannot be right

It is also contrary to what we see in the very next chapter

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

thus should be ruled out

How does this verse make sense if everyone has the ability to see, hear, and perceive?

Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

 

[TomL]

How does this verse make sense if everyone has the ability to see, hear, and perceive?

Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

read the reply

First let me note you did not address the verses quoted

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Second you assume Deut 29:4 means what?

They needed a change to their being before they could understand or see?

Or God had not explained the significance of the events when he led them out of the desert?

Or they had not yet come to understand. but would as God would teach them through various trials and discipline see in Ch 30:1-10.

Through this they would learn their proper way to relate to God and alternate sources which would seek to take the place of God

The first understanding which you would affirm would be contrary to the verses posted so it cannot be right

It is also contrary to what we see in the very next chapter

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

thus should be ruled out

 

[Frank Russell]

if all ordained, then my face .. too is ordained.

 

[TomL]

if all ordained, then my face .. too is ordained.

That should either make you happy or sad

 

[TomL]

That's your favorite cop-out. Are you now going to say it's because the Greek is a mistranslation? Because the Greek says nothing about the "preached word of Christ". Maybe you think the "original Aramaic" (if that even exists) backs up your translation. If so, produce the original Aramaic and prove it.

I think he may be quoting

(NET) Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

read the reply

First let me note you did not address the verses quoted

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Second you assume Deut 29:4 means what?

They needed a change to their being before they could understand or see?

Or God had not explained the significance of the events when he led them out of the desert?

Or they had not yet come to understand. but would as God would teach them through various trials and discipline see in Ch 30:1-10.

Through this they would learn their proper way to relate to God and alternate sources which would seek to take the place of God

The first understanding which you would affirm would be contrary to the verses posted so it cannot be right

It is also contrary to what we see in the very next chapter

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

thus should be ruled out

How does this verse make sense if everyone has the ability to see, hear, and perceive?

Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I think he may be quoting

(NET) Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ.

So, what? Check the Greek and you'll see which translations into English got it right.

 

[TomL]

Very good. So something dead chooses to live? LOL

Christ makes you alive like Paul says.

When you believe as multiple verses, you do not address show

 

[civic]

in·fuse

instill (a quality) in someone or something

in·fuse​

(ĭn-fyo͞oz′)
tr.v. in·fused, in·fus·ing, in·fus·es
1. To put into or introduce as if by pouring:

that accurately defines your interpretation of eph 2:8

Faith: Is it a gift infused, a gift received, or a decision to believe?​

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJ)

There are several views of the role of faith in Ephesians Chapter 2 verses 8-9. It might be helpful to examine briefly these views. These two verses are acknowledged to be scripture by those who accept the New Testament. The different concepts of the role of faith come from trying to understand what these two verses mean. There are, at least, three basic views regarding the role of faith in these two verses.

In brief, the views are as follows.

1. Faith as an infused gift of God. Faith is believed to be infused into the person who is dead-like. While dead, they become gifted with saving faith. In this sense, faith is an infused gift from God. This view holds that no one is saved unless God imparted the gift of faith into them.

2. Faith as a received gift of God. The gift of faith is welcomed and received by a lost sinner who feels his or her deep need of salvation. With this gift of faith, he or she believes the gospel. This view emphasizes the acceptance of the "gift" of faith by the sinner. The sinner willingly and knowingly receives the gift of faith and has believing faith. In this sense, the sinner willingly, knowingly, and actively receives the gift of faith.

3. Faith as a personal decision to believe the gospel. This view holds that the gift of God does not refer to the word, faith; rather it refers to the whole plan of salvation. This view teaches that the whole "by grace you are saved through faith" plan of salvation is the gift of God. For Israel in the Old Testament, the plan was "by the law you are blessed through obedience." The OT involved the "keeping the law." The New Testament involves "faith in Christ." The OT was a system of "works." The NT is based upon "grace."

1. Infused Faith.

Probably the most popular view is that faith is infused into a sinner. Since the human population is held to be incapable of believing the gospel message, it is necessary for God to impart living faith into the dead and unresponsive sinner. After the Holy Spirit has imparted faith into the sinner, the person is able to accept the gospel of salvation.

This view emphasizes the sovereignty of God in saving souls. Whoever God sovereignly chooses to impart life and faith, comes to faith.

2. Faith is a gift.

It is easy to see why this view would be thought to be the case. A straight forward reading of the passage would lead one to believe that faith was itself the gift. Granting that faith is a gift, a gift still has to be received by the one to whom it is offered. So, even this second view requires acceptance of the gift and belief in the Savior by the lost sinner. In effect, it is similar to the third view. It holds that the sinner has some form of real faith in the value of the offer of the gospel.

3. The gift is not faith but the entire plan of salvation.

To understand this view, one needs to understand that some languages have nouns with gender. For example, nouns in Spanish have masculine, feminine or neuter genders. The words, faith and grace are both feminine in Greek while the word, "that" is neuter. So, the sentence reads as follows.

"For by grace (feminine) you have been saved through faith (feminine), and that (neuter).

Some Greek scholars note that "that (neuter)" must refer to the whole phrase. They argue that if "that (neuter)" referred to "faith (feminine)," the word "that" should be feminine and not neuter.

"that" neuter in Greek is "touto, τοῦτο."

"that" feminine in Greek is "taute, ταύτῃ."

Consequently, the phrase may be read as follows.

("For by grace are you saved through faith") that ... is the gift of God. It is not the OT system of laws. It is not ours personal merit or our good deeds. The gift of God is the plan of salvation that is offered in free grace to all sinners who come in faith to the Savior.

This view thinks that God's sovereignty is shown in the words "by grace" and that human responsibility is shown in the words "through faith." God offers salvation as a gift freely to all. There is just one condition for the gift of salvation. The gift of salvation must be accepted in faith. The free offer of salvation is to all races, nations, tribes, peoples, and languages. It is for wicked sinners, polite sinners, socialites, religious devotees, stoned drug addicts, and social outcasts.

However, there is the one condition on the part of the sinner, "faith." The sinner must "believe" the gospel of the grace of God. This faith is apart from works. It is a non-meritorious faith, but it is an absolutely necessity. Salvation is offered freely, but the sinner must be received the offer by faith.

This last view holds that God works through the Holy Spirit who convicts, compels, and convinces the sinner of his or her need of salvation. However, the Holy Spirit does not force a sinner to accept the gracious offer of salvation. The sinner may choose to resist the Holy Spirit's gracious invitation. Furthermore, this view holds that the sinner must really believe the gospel. God cannot believe for us. We must believe, or we will be eternally damned. In this view, human beings have the responsibility (responsibility, i.e., the ability to respond) to accept the gospel message.

This view believes that God's sovereignty and human responsibility meet in the phrase "for by grace are you saved through faith." Since there is free grace on God's part, and, if there is real faith on the sinner's part, eternal salvation will be the outcome for the sinner.

Have you yourself accepted God's gracious offer of salvation?

Faith: Is it a gift infused, a gift received, or the decision to believe? | Christian Treasury

Article 14 Canons of Dort states, “Faith is a gift of God, not in the sense that it is offered by God for man to choose, but that it is in actual fact bestowed on man, breathed and infused into him. Nor is it a gift in the sense that God bestows only the potential to believe, but then awaits assent—the act of believing—from man’s choice; rather, it is a gift in the sense that he who works both willing and acting and, indeed, works all things in all people produces in man both the will to believe and the belief itself.”129

WTG !!!

 

[TomL]

How does this verse make sense if everyone has the ability to see, hear, and perceive?

Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

You still have not read the read and responded to it

First let me note you did not address the verses quoted

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Second you assume Deut 29:4 means what?

They needed a change to their being before they could understand or see?

Or God had not explained the significance of the events when he led them out of the desert?

Or they had not yet come to understand. but would as God would teach them through various trials and discipline see in Ch 30:1-10.

Through this they would learn their proper way to relate to God and alternate sources which would seek to take the place of God

The first understanding which you would affirm would be contrary to the verses posted so it cannot be right

It is also contrary to what we see in the very next chapter

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

thus should be ruled out

Now had you read you should have seen your understanding of what is being stated is defective or at least tried to address the objection

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

You still have not read the read and responded to it

First let me note you did not address the verses quoted

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Second you assume Deut 29:4 means what?

They needed a change to their being before they could understand or see?

Or God had not explained the significance of the events when he led them out of the desert?

Or they had not yet come to understand. but would as God would teach them through various trials and discipline see in Ch 30:1-10.

Through this they would learn their proper way to relate to God and alternate sources which would seek to take the place of God

The first understanding which you would affirm would be contrary to the verses posted so it cannot be right

It is also contrary to what we see in the very next chapter

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

thus should be ruled out

Now had you read you should have seen your understanding of what is being stated is defective or at least tried to address the objection

I did respond to it.

How does this verse make sense if everyone has the ability to see, hear, and perceive?

Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

 

[TomL]

WTG !!!

Thank you