Who is the creator

[TibiasDad]

I'd like to know outside of mono and poly, which we can agree to disagree, what do I believe that you don't. I'm not sure how far off we are.

Let me ask you a question about Weslyan that you also believe. How would you define grace, and from what scripture, if any. I'm not going to ask more than one question at a time.

I think I've got two questions out there for you. I'll stop for now.

Grace has two aspect or points of view; the human perspective is that Grace is something that we do not deserve and cannot possibly merit. Grace from the divine perspective is something that God does not have to offer or do. There is no sense of obligation on God outside of himself. God is obligated only because he promised to act if we believe.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

They are all equally God. One God, not Three God's.

Again, there are not three Gods. There are three persons who are of the same, singular type of being or nature.

We are human, they are God.

Doug

 

[FreeInChrist]

Thanks. Yes, there are more than one archangel. And I'm glad this recognizes him as being the archangel of Israel. I like the term guardian prince. As I've been saying there are also demonic archangels: the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece in Daniel 10.

Personally, I couldn't care less about "Christian" extra-biblical traditions, but Jewish would be intriguing. I'm not sure how old the Apocrypha is. Do you?

As I seem to recall, the Book of Enoch may have some names in it, which is BC. But I believe liberties were taken with it at later dates, and what may have actually been canonical and inspired was added to by man disqualifying it. "Guardians" is a lot like "Watchers" don't you think?

Yes, Enoch does. But like all the other books some are better translations. I have been searching for a good translation to the 1 Enoch in the Ethiopian Bible.. but no luck yet.

So far I have the following listed.

1 Enoch at EarlyJewishWritings.com — links to Charles & Laurence translations — Listings of major public-domain English versions of the text. https://earlyjewishwritings.com/1enoch.html

Parallel Charles & Laurence translations — searchable and side-by-side versions:
1 Enoch Parallel Translations: https://qbible.com/enoch/

Free Public-Domain English Texts​

Full 1 Enoch (R. H. Charles translation, public domain) — classic public-domain English translation:
The Book of Enoch (R. H. Charles, 1906) — full text online:
The R. H. Charles translation is public domain and widely available for free, but it’s older and has some interpretive choices typical of early 20th-century scholarship.
https://oneeyedman.net/teaching/fulltext/www.ancienttexts.org/library/ethiopian/enoch/enoch1.htm

Wikisource English translation (public domain) — partially complete but free to read chapter-by-chapter:
1 Enoch on Wikisource: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Translation:1_Enoch
The Wikisource version is also free, though not always complete in every section.

Free modern-style English translation (Knibb–based) — The Book of Enoch with updated language based on M. Knibb’s work (publicly hosted PDF):
The modern Knibb-based PDF is a more up-to-date English rendering of the Ethiopian text, and is available free online, though it may lack extensive notes.
Modern Enoch translation PDF: https://www.agathonlibrary.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/BookOfEnoch.pdf

I know I have 2 others.... Just cannot find them at the moment, but will let you know when I do

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[JesusFan]

No, no matter what my friend, Doug surmises. LOL But I have asked the oneness pastor about the Father and the Holy Spirit, and he said there are times when Jesus appears as the Father or the Spirit, but they are all Jesus. So they are not denying the Father and Spirit. That is what I had always wondered.

But I also am not a buyer of total polytheism. Three separate persons, when we humans are made in their (Elohim is plural word) image. 1 Thes. 5:23 - one human is made up of spirit, soul and body. Three distinct and separate parts of the whole. In other words, I am not three people. But I would also clarify that they are not bigger together, than each part separately. Since the resurrection, they are all omnipresent, making them each part of the other, which you will now argue is the mod squad speaking, I suppose.

I don't think I fit in either category. I do not see Jesus appearing as only the Father at one time, and the Holy Spirit at another time, as what seemed to be explained to me at the oneness church when all of them are present together. Like at the Transfiguration and His baptism, the Father speaks, and the HS descended upon Him like a dove. They are all equally God. One God, not Three God's.

To me both sides have legitimate truth and should not be thinking less of the other point of view. You may not believe this, but in heaven people on both sides will be there. And unfortunately, the same can be said of hell.

@TibiasDad

Modualism and Oneness are both heresies, as holding that that theology means has a false Jesus

 

[Keiw1]

I do; you are ignoring Hebrews 1 which is part of the whole Bible. Use (deal with) the evidence of Heb 1!


Doug

Do you mean like Heb 1:4 where it is 100% clear that Jesus became better than the angels because God gave him a name above theirs? Means he was equal to them until getting that name.

 

[Keiw1]

What does this have to do with Col 1:15? You are running again, Keiw1, running away from the evidence against your argument. Why can’t you deal with what is said instead of changing directions and making a different argument?


Doug

You twist everything.

 

[Keiw1]

Not necessarily all the angels. It could also be translated over their designated country. Each country has more than one angel, but one archangel, its prince. So you could say that over one country their archangel is chief.

You are confusing Michael the Archangel with The Angel of the Lord. It is the Angel of the Lord that allowed worship and was the pre-existed Jesus, a theophany, not the prince of Israel. Your mind just won't let you go there will it, not even a crack. How do you expect to keep growing?

Michael is the only one called Archangel. Then explain to all of us--1Thess 4:16--Is this Jesus' voice or does he borrow Michaels voice? And how does one borrow another's voice if that is your reasoning?

 

[Keiw1]

Michel was the word in Genesis ! and is Gods voice there?

The interesting thing is that the when the Holy Spirit came to impregnate Mary, and she bore the Son.. that He truly would have been 1/2 human and 1/2 Angel.

Actually, if you think about it that does make sense because Michael was a warrior which somewhat could be reflected in Jesus when he in Matt 21:12 Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.

The NWT tells us that in John 1:14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.

So if even the NWT says that the Word capital W became flesh, this would have been Jesus.

Only possible conclusion is that Michel was in the beginning speaking the creation in Genesis ergo Michael was the Word.....

Is that not so @Keiw1 ????????????????????????????????/

Your reasoning is not correct--God has perfect justice--Thus a perfect MORTAL rebelled and lost perfection for all mortals after--Perfect justice = a 100% perfect MORTAL lived a perfect existence buying back what Adam had lost=the ransom sacrifice.
Jesus will lead Gods armies to Earth at Harmageddon-99.9% will be destroyed( Luke 17:26)--a warrior.

 

[Keiw1]

Jesus physically resurrected as same Jesus, was he then also Michael?

If Jesus came back as mortal Jesus why couldn't they recognize him to start with? (1Pet 3:18-19--raised in the spirit.

 

[charismaticlady]

tongues are not as necessary today as it was on Pentecost.

Why? What do you believe was the purpose of speaking in tongues back in the day?

Grace has two aspect or points of view; the human perspective is that Grace is something that we do not deserve and cannot possibly merit. Grace from the divine perspective is something that God does not have to offer or do. There is no sense of obligation on God outside of himself. God is obligated only because he promised to act if we believe.

So if I have God's grace, what has He given me?

Again, there are not three Gods. There are three persons who are of the same, singular type of being or nature.

We are human, they are God.

Are you saying God is a title? Like if you had a complaint at your job you could say, "I'm going to Management." Or, "I'm going to HR."

 

[charismaticlady]

Modualism and Oneness are both heresies, as holding that that theology means has a false Jesus

I think "heresies" is a big word that does not quite fit. Now if they were saying that Jesus is not God, that would be a heresy. And they do acknowledge the Father and the Holy Spirit, but they are all in Jesus which Col. 2:9 points out, and it is the SAME Jesus you have.

What are heresies is the lack of love either side has towards the other, especially the poly against the mod, using phrases like "another Jesus." God calls that murder.

I can see the truth in either side, which is why I'm comfortable attending either when it comes to the divinity of Jesus. Doesn't both views hold Jesus as God? We only see God as through a dark glass anyway, so neither side should get all huffy, blowing up like a puffer fish, thinking our side in the only correct picture of Who God is. I like Titus 2:13, because it was the first time I could see God as Jesus and not just the Father only. "appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."

I'm as much poly and I am mod, with better eyesight and a lot more love. Not, indulgence, as if believing one side needs more grace from me than the other. I see both the truths and the errors of both sides. So I let the Bible choose my words.

So, JF, help me. Where is the word person in the Bible so I can be totally poly? Because we are created in the image of Elohim, 1 Thess. 5:23 comes to mind. "spirit, soul and body" So I'm not saying that the Father is not God, nor the Holy Spirit. And I can see each one is separately in the whole Godhead.

 

[TibiasDad]

Do you mean like Heb 1:4 where it is 100% clear that Jesus became better than the angels because God gave him a name above theirs? Means he was equal to them until getting that name.

Heb 1:1In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Hebrews employs the concept of the superiority of Jesus. The opening prologue establishes Jesus being the superior messenger; for he was the creator of all things including the message he proclaims.




3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.

Here he has superior glory and power to all creation.

After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Here the time factor shifts from eternity past, to a specific point of time, namely, “after he had provided purification for sins”

So this establishes a point after the completion of his earthly ministry. Jesus is returning to heaven and resuming the role he had prior to the incarnation. Thus, returning to heaven, he now becomes (again) more superior to the angels, having been “a little lower that the angels” as a mere human subject to death.

His name was never lowered in value, it was always more valuable than any other name. But it says that “(a)fter he had provided purification for sins” that he “inherited” this name; this means that he was 1) worthy of receiving it, and 2) he was an heir of God, and thus a member of the Godhead.

No angel was ever worthy of such honor. Jesus was always higher than and superior to the angels, for he created the angels. Only in the incarnation was he “a little lower than the angels” and this was a self-imposed ‘demotion’ for the sake of mankind.

This in no way means or implies that he was equal to the angels prior to the incarnation, and the first three verses demonstrate that fact!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Why? What do you believe was the purpose of speaking in tongues back in the day?

The purpose of the gift of tongues was for preaching the gospel to the large number of foreigners in Jerusalem for Pentecost. 16 nations are listed as being represented, so there are at least 16 languages represented that would need to be spoken to have them hear the gospel in their own language. (There may have been even more, but this is a foundational number of languages that were spoken.)

So if I have God's grace, what has He given me?

His favor! His salvation. His mercy. His support. His promises.

Are you saying God is a title? Like if you had a complaint at your job you could say, "I'm going to Management." Or, "I'm going to HR."

No! Lord is a title. God is what he is! God is a type of being! Just like we are human. Dogs are Canine. Cats are Feline. Horses are Equine etc, etc. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God/Divine.

Ask yourself what identifies us to be human? What quantifies a dog or cat or horse? What quantifies a being to be God?

Only those who have the attributes of a human are human. Only those who have the attributes of Divinity are God.


Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

Michael is the only one called Archangel. Then explain to all of us--1Thess 4:16--Is this Jesus' voice or does he borrow Michaels voice? And how does one borrow another's voice if that is your reasoning?

When Jesus comes back, where on earth will His feet touch? Israel! It is not the voice from Jesus, but from Israel's prince, Michael the Archangel. The feet of Jesus split the Mount of Olives in half.

Also in Daniel 10, two other countries' princes are mentioned. Those princes are fallen archangels. Not fallen gods.

 

[charismaticlady]

No! Lord is a title. God is what he is! God is a type of being! Just like we are human. Dogs are Canine. Cats are Feline. Horses are Equine etc, etc. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God/Divine.

I agree.

Only those who have the attributes of a human are human. Only those who have the attributes of Divinity are God.

I agree, in general. But what is different in these two humans: One is a natural human. The other is born again of the Spirit?

His favor! His salvation. His mercy. His support. His promises.

Is a person saved from his sins, or in his sins?

The purpose of the gift of tongues was for preaching the gospel to the large number of foreigners in Jerusalem for Pentecost. 16 nations are listed as being represented, so there are at least 16 languages represented that would need to be spoken to have them hear the gospel in their own language. (There may have been even more, but this is a foundational number of languages that were spoken.)

That is a very common teaching in the church even though it contradicts 1 Corinthians 14:2.

Acts 2:8 shows what actually happened.

 

[FreeInChrist]

But I also am not a buyer of total polytheism. Three separate persons, when we humans are made in their (Elohim is plural word) image. 1 Thes. 5:23 - one human is made up of spirit, soul and body. Three distinct and separate parts of the whole. In other words, I am not three people. But I would also clarify that they are not bigger together, than each part separately. Since the resurrection, they are all omnipresent, making them each part of the other, which you will now argue is the mod squad speaking, I suppose.

The Trinity is one God in three distinct Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—who share the same divine essence and exist eternally within the one Godhead. This is not polytheism, because the Persons are not separate gods, but fully and equally the one God.

Now contrast that with man:

Man, by contrast, is tripartite in a different way. Body, soul, and spirit are distinct and can be separated. At death, the body returns to the ground, the spirit returns to God who gave it, and the soul continues in conscious existence—either in communion with God or under judgment. Therefore all three are separate.

This is not confusion or contradiction, but elegant simplicity by design—established by our Heavenly Father.

 

[charismaticlady]

The Trinity is one God in three distinct Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—who share the same divine essence and exist eternally within the one Godhead. This is not polytheism, because the Persons are not separate gods, but fully and equally the one God.

Now contrast that with man:

Man, by contrast, is tripartite in a different way. Body, soul, and spirit are distinct and can be separated. At death, the body returns to the ground, the spirit returns to God who gave it, and the soul continues in conscious existence—either in communion with God or under judgment. Therefore all three are separate.

This is not confusion or contradiction, but elegant simplicity by design—established by our Heavenly Father.

Hi friend. What is your belief regarding what in us is born again of the Spirit?

 

[FreeInChrist]

Hi friend. What is your belief regarding what in us is born again of the Spirit?

What in us is born again of the Spirit?

Biblically, the “new birth” is not a feeling and not a recurring event. It is a sovereign, once-for-all act of God, where the whole person is made alive spiritually.

When Scripture speaks of being born again as in John 3, it is saying that God regenerates us—He takes a spiritually dead sinner and gives us new life. That new life affects the mind, will, affections, and conscience. We don’t get a new body yet, but we do receive a new nature.

So what is “born again” in us? Our spirit is made alive (Eph 2:1–5) , Our heart is changed (Ezekiel 36:26) , Our mind is renewed (Romans 12:2) , Our will is freed to desire God (Phil 2:13)

In short..... the whole inner person, not just one compartment.

 

[TibiasDad]

I agree.

I agree, in general. But what is different in these two humans: One is a natural human. The other is born again of the Spirit?

That has nothing to do with their humanity, but rather their standing with God. Both are equally human.

Is a person saved from his sins, or in his sins?

We are saved from the power and penalty of sin. We are, however, still capable of sinning, but not obligated to do so. We are capable of refraining from sinning at any given temptation to sin.

That is a very common teaching in the church even though it contradicts 1 Corinthians 14:2.

Acts 2:8 shows what actually happened.

It doesn’t contradict anything. It is a historical narrative of the gift in action, and an explanation of why it was employed by God at that moment.

1Cor 14 does not forbid tounges , which is defined as a personal spiritual communication with God, but it does temper the use of it it public setting, and it makes it, at least, secondary to prophecy, meaning speaking in a known language.

Interpretation is a necessity if used in places that people, especially unbelievers, are present.

Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

What in us is born again of the Spirit?

Biblically, the “new birth” is not a feeling and not a recurring event. It is a sovereign, once-for-all act of God, where the whole person is made alive spiritually.

When Scripture speaks of being born again as in John 3, it is saying that God regenerates us—He takes a spiritually dead sinner and gives us new life. That new life affects the mind, will, affections, and conscience. We don’t get a new body yet, but we do receive a new nature.

So what is “born again” in us? Our spirit is made alive (Eph 2:1–5) , Our heart is changed (Ezekiel 36:26) , Our mind is renewed (Romans 12:2) , Our will is freed to desire God (Phil 2:13)

In short..... the whole inner person, not just one compartment.

Perfect answer and correct. So, why do most pastors teach that Christians have a sin nature? Only someone who is born again can be called a Christian.

Personally, I think teaching that heresy is a slap to the face of Jesus and what He went through to give us freedom from lawless sin unto death.