Who is the creator

[charismaticlady]

Yes, he does! He uses the plural “we” and “us” in the passage as a whole, and the audience to whom he is writing are believers.


Doug

That is the problem with reading the eastern style with a western mindset. It is talking about all mankind before accepting Christ as well as gnostics (4:1-3).

Paul does it too. In Romans 7:14-25 he contradicts verses 5-6, and Romans 8:2. Romans 8:2 is actually being freed from Romans 7:14-25 and all personal present tense. And what about Paul seemingly being there in Romans 7:9 when Moses was given the law, and even before! Paul wasn't anywhere near 1,500 years old!

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!

The writing style of contrasts is why verses 8 and 10 are one verse apart. One before confession and the other after confession. Nope! Start with verse 5 and end with verse 10; you'll see a contrast between light vs. dark.

 

[charismaticlady]

Acts2:14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning!

Peter was not speaking to the 120, but to those outside of the house where the 120 had been and where they, the outer crowd, heard the sound of the mighty rushing wind.

I know he wasn't speaking to the fellow believers in Christ, the 120. He was addressing the crowd who HEARD their own languages being spoken in tongues, not just the wind. Note they were "devout Jews." They were still saving Jews first. It appears the Gentile Romans heard gibberish and mocked they were drunk.

 

[TibiasDad]

That is the problem with reading the eastern style with a western mindset. It is talking about all mankind before accepting Christ.

Paul does it too. In Romans 7:14-25 he contradicts verses 5-6, and Romans 8:2. Romans 8:2 is actually being freed from Romans 7:14-25 and all personal present tense. And what about Paul seemingly being there in Romans 7:9 when Moses was given the law, and even before!

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!

The writing style of contrasts is why verses 8 and 10 are one verse apart. One before confession and the other after confession. Nope! Start with verse 5 and end with verse 10; you'll see a contrast between light vs. dark.

That’s the problem with not knowing Greek or apparently English either. It’s not an eastern or western concept. It is koine Greek language which can be interpreted at face value. Using “we” “us”, includes John as a member of the group being spoken of in the present tense, subjunctive mood (If we). Was John a believer? Were those he wrote to presumably the church?

5This is the message we ( the Apostles) have heard from him and declare to you: (the Christian church) God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we ( the whole of the church, including the Apostles) claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we (whoever claims him yet walks in darkness) lie and do not live out the truth. 7But if we (whoever claims to be in fellowship with him) walk in the light, as he is in the light, we (ibid) have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

8If we ( who claim to be in fellowship with him) claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we ( ibid) confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us ( those who claim to be in fellowship with him and confess) our (ibid the church as a whole ) sins and purify us (ibid) from all unrighteousness. 10If we (ibid) claim we (ibid) have not sinned, we (ibid) make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. (Those who claim to be in fellowship with him.)

John is writing to those who are presumed to be believers about those who claim to be believers, but who may not be believing the correct things.


Doug

 

[FreeInChrist]

Sorry, honey, but John is not contradicting himself in the same letter. He didn't say that 1 John 1:8 is a Christian. Shocker!

I hope you enjoyed your popcorn, but you missed some. What, no emoji for a potty break? LOL You didn't "add." I'm not on your road. Where did you go. I thought we were on the same road.

Believing John is describing all levels of Christians, even the highest who never stumble in 1 John 1:8 is the key mistake the western Church makes in their understanding of an eastern writing style, so they cannot believe 1 John 3:9 as stated. They must change the second to keep their warped understanding of the first.

The Church also rolls over the first sentence of 1 John 2:1 to get to the second, as if it were a lie. "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin." Period. Believing 1 John 1:8 in the way the western Church does currently, makes this sentence obsolete. A lie in itself.

Jesus is the Advocate to the Father for the whole world, not just baby Christians still immature in some of the fruit of the Spirit. "And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

1 John 1:7 shows that while walking in the Spirit, the immature fruit of the Spirit keeps getting cleansed as we grow and all other slight mishaps that we don't even know we are doing. They are unintentional because of the Spirit within. What it is not saying is that Christ automatically cleanses us of lawless willful sins unto death as the Reformation taught and OSAS began. Luther even wrote a letter saying SIN BOLDLY. Exactly what Paul spoke against in Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?"

What John is NOT saying anywhere is "believers may commit sin, but they cannot practice sin as a settled way of life." No where does John give permission to willfully sin. Just the opposite.

I'm not sure who invented the term "sinless perfection," do you? I've never heard anyone teach that doctrine as such. But I've heard plenty of pastors on the radio speak against it. That term consists of two words that are a lifetime apart, but both possible."

Sinless is righteous, having no desire to break God's laws. Again, I repeat, that is what Jesus as the Author of our faith begins our walk with Him. That is freedom from lawlessness, John also calls sins unto death.

And perfection is holy as Peter stated where we come to the place of no immaturity also in the fruit of the Spirit and "never stumble," even any sins not unto death, both found in 1 John 5:16-17. This concept has not been upheld in the church since it was taken over by Rome and the dark ages began. And didn't get repaired during the Reformation; in fact, they brought back to life a whole new meaning of grace and made it again a license to sin, unmerited favor. Jude 1:4.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I wrote... because I do not see John saying "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin" ever again.
In 1 John 3:9, John writes (literal sense):

“No one born of God does not keep on sinning.”

John is not saying a believer never commits a sin.
He is saying a believer cannot live in sin as a settled pattern.

I John 1:8 KJV If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I see 1 John 1:8 basically saying that also...

So what am I missing?

 

[TibiasDad]

I know he wasn't speaking to the fellow believers in Christ, the 120. He was addressing the crowd who HEARD their own languages being spoken in tongues, not just the wind. Note they were "devout Jews." They were still saving Jews first. It appears the Gentile Romans heard gibberish and mocked they were drunk.

Yes, Jews from every nation.

5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

13Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.” (“Some”, grammatically points back to the “Jews from every nation under heaven) not “Roman Gentiles” who did not understand what was being said.)

This is more evident when we see Peter respond to the Jews to answer the “drunk” accusation.


Doug