Why are you parroting the discredited rumours about Westcott and Hort being into Spiritualism?
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- Thread starter Keiw1
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The moment any claims that they are now in sinless perfection, they just lied and need to confess that sin to God
Could be due to the fact that they were not part of the inspired original Greek text
TibiasDad
Active Member
Actually he saved the Greek OT mss from being burned! Yes some may have been lost, but we don’t know what. He found the Codex Sinaiticus, a 4th century, nearly complete NT copy.
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
Why do you think we don’t believe 1 John 3:9? Perhaps we don’t agree with your interpretation, but let’s test that hypothesis.
9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
Now my theory is that this has to do with a single word in English “cannot”. I assume that you take it as an absolute inability, that because we are born of God it is not possible for us to sin.
I on the other hand, take it as an absolute potential that we can not continue to sin since we have become God’s children, or stated positively, we are able to stop sinning, therefore we “cannot” go on sinning in the same way that after one is married, they cannot continue to date other people. John has already stated that we capable of sinning in 3:1-2. So the impossibility of sinning is not sustainable.
Doug
charismaticlady
Active Member
The apostles were not Greek using paragraphs, but Hebrews using their own style of writing. Once you find a key word, what follows is the parallel. They mean the same thing. Then there are 'contrasts' and every other verse or passage mean the opposite. Do you know about this?
TibiasDad
Active Member
I didn’t say it was; I said that grace was given in love and by love. In other words, the Love of God extends the hope of salvation to us graciously when he didn’t have to.
Doug
charismaticlady
Active Member
There were other books he was able to only copy before they burned them. The Epistle of Barnabas for instance. It contains a prophecy that would have taken over a thousand years to be fulfilled. Seeing as they believed Jesus would come again soon, they did not include this book in the Bible leaving the New Testament with only 27 books instead of a key number exactly divisible by 7 like the Jewish Old Testament. For millions of babies that was a dire mistake. It is the only book besides the Didiche that contains a commandment against abortion.
Barnabas 19:5
Thou shalt not doubt whether a thing shall be or not be. Thou shalt
not take the name of the Lord in vain. Thou shalt love thy
neighbor more than thine own soul. Thou shalt not murder a child by
abortion, nor again shalt thou kill it when it is born. Thou shalt
not withhold thy hand from thy son or daughter, but from their youth
thou shalt teach them the fear of God.
charismaticlady
Active Member
You still don't understand the true Jewish meaning for God's grace. Once known the gospel takes on a whole new meaning. It is also why we are not the originator of our faith. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith.
Why do you think Romans 1:17 says, "the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith? Why two?
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charismaticlady
Active Member
They were. They were also fans of Darwin, no less. Do you prefer the cut-down version of God's Word when we are to live by EVERY WORD of God?
Critics, particularly Gail Riplinger in New Age Bible Versions and various KJVO proponents, point to the following to argue that Westcott and Hort were involved in the occult or spiritism:
- The "Ghostly Guild" (1851): Westcott and Hort were among the founders of a club at Cambridge University known as the "Ghostly Guild" or "Ghost Society," which aimed to investigate "ghosts and all supernatural appearances".
- The Hermes Club: Westcott founded a club named "Hermes" while an undergraduate, which critics claim was focused on communicating with the dead.
- Personal Letters: Correspondence from the two, collected in biographies by their sons, includes mentions of their interest in the "supernatural" and sometimes vague language regarding the "communion of the saints".
- Associates: They were associated with individuals involved in the early Society for Psychical Research.
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charismaticlady
Active Member
When God makes a condition, it is a commandment and is in line with the gospel, not a watered down version of it.
Do you know what it means to be born again?
charismaticlady
Active Member
There is no such thing as "sinless perfection." They are two words that are true but years apart. What is heresy is believing sinners will be in heaven. That is a doctrine of demons. Whole denominations will go to hell, especially those who do not recognize and are blinded to the holiness of God and what He has done to assure us a place in heaven for all eternity. The born again believer is conformed into the likeness of Christ. That is not believed in most denominations. Some even teach that we can never stop sinning and only wear Christ's righteousness like an invisibility cloak hiding the sin being committed underneath.
I listen to some radio preachers and end up screaming into the radio! The heresies they teach!
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TibiasDad
Active Member
And why do you think that I would disagree with this?
It’s an idiom for completely by faith, from the start to the end; which is why Paul quotes Hab 2:4, “the just will live by faith!”
Doug
charismaticlady
Active Member
You still haven't shown me that you know what the substance of God's grace is. Until you know that you can't know fully, and why you said you believe we still have a sin nature. When I tell you if you ever humble yourself and ask, you'll see in a different light and level.
No, it is not a Hebrew idiom, but actual two distinct outcomes. It is Jesus' double blessing. Isa. 61:7
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TibiasDad
Active Member
If you choose to tell me I will listen.
Well I’m not going to argue with you; your hermetics are, I’m sure, more astute than mine and my arguments will certainly fall on deaf ears. I will only say I believe your “double blessing” theory to be wrong.
Faith to faith is not Isaiah’s double portion.
Doug
charismaticlady
Active Member
Last things first. The gospel went first to the Jews. "Everlasting joy shall be theirs." That is double what they got from the Old Covenant, the ministry of death 2 Cor. 3:6-11.
The Semitic synonymous parallel of grace is supernatural POWER. That is the substance of God's grace to us.
- Acts 4:33
And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great gracewas upon them all.
('great' is the key word that here shows grace is synonymous with great power.)
- 2 Corinthians 12:9
And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
- Ephesians 3:7
of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
That supernatural power of the indwelling Holy Spirit is why we must be born again to receive Him. It was because of Adam's sin that Jesus came to take away that inherent sin in us from Adam. That is why it is heresy to even think, let alone teach, that when Jesus took away our sin it wasn't from our corrupted NATURE. The sin nature we inherited due to Adam's sin is now clean. John 15:3-4 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
There are two types of sin. For the past 3,500 years this has been known that there are sins unto death which are willful sins of lawlessness (commandment breaking), and sins not unto death that are unintentional immature fruit. As the Author of the first faith (from faith to faith) Jesus takes away the sins unto death from our sin nature so that the recreated clean nature may partake of the divine nature of God. 2 Pt. 1:2-4. This is what has happened when our NATURE is born again of the Spirit who has cleansed us. Now the long period of Jesus as the Finisher of the second faith, the maturing of the fruit of the Spirit so that at the end, but in this lifetime, we may never stumble. 2 Peter 1:5-11. It was Luther and Calvin who perverted the gospel until it is unrecognizable and instead of the two, they lump it all together and declare "sin is sin." That is why most Protestant denominations still believe Christians have a sin NATURE. That is a slap to Jesus' face. That Jesus failed to free us from the desire to sin. Heresy! It is just that most 'Christians' are not born again. 1 John 3 is only about lawless sin. Not the unintentional sins not unto death that 1 John 1:7 shows us that as we walk in the Spirit the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all those sins - the lesser sins that we are not even aware of, and NOT lawless sins that can only be committed willfully. I've even heard preachers say that all sin is willful. No, it is not. And Jesus automatically cleanses our immaturities of fruit.
For the first 30 years of my life I was a member of the SDA church, mostly as a failure. After I left I became Church of Christ for one year. Then finally converted from cessationism and sought the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That took another 6 years of failure and leaving church altogether. I was even entangled in an affair with a married man and couldn't stop. I just didn't want to. But I knew it was wrong and even went to a therapist. But he said something that made me see the devil in him. He said, "well, if it feels good do it! I never saw him again and began to look for a Spirit-filled church. I found one and after a month I broke up with my lover. Three days later I could stand it no longer and wanted him back. This was repeated every month for 6 months. I kept failing. Then I prayed, even though in my 30 years not one prayer was ever answered, to the point I questioned if God even existed. But, I prayed, I see that I am just too weak, so I give up. If you want this affair to end You will have to lay it on him to break up with me, and then give him the strength to stay away from me. One week later I received my first prayer to be answered. I was heart broken and needed another man quick! So after a couple weeks I asked a husband and wife at church if they knew any single Christian men. They did - a movie producer of Christian films named Bill B. (I was also in the entertainment industry in Beverly Hills) They went for coffee with him every week and invited me to join them that Wed. night. I was so excited that maybe this would heal the pain in my heart. So, church started and it came a time to greet each other and a girl came over to me from the other side of the room who I had met a year ago. I asked her how it was that she came here tonight. She told me a guy came into her office and invited her. I asked her what was his name. She said, Bill B.
My mind was racing. What was God doing? Didn't He see my broken heart? Didn't He care? I felt very alone. Then I started thinking about Bill B. (My old lover was a Jewish atheist.) I prayed silently, Don't you want me to date a Christian? And God actually spoke to me. Yelled was more like it. "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! My mind shook it was so loud in my head. Suddenly I saw a vision. It was a huge clear glass silo in a field that went straight up into the clouds. It was clear except for a giant hair-ball way up high. The hair started to move. It was a giant ball of snakes! Then the revelation of the vision came to me. My sin was preventing any blessings from God to reach me. That is when I repented. Not because I loved God, but because I wanted those blessings! But at least I now KNEW God existed. Then He spoke again and said, "You look to man for your love; I want to be your love. You look to man for your security; I want to be your security. You will not date for a season; you will be in drought. And when your heart melts, I will send the rain." I was in awe, and fell madly in love with Jesus. Then I repented for real, and God took away all desire to commit adultery. I literally felt a dark heaviness lift out of my body. Then He baptized me with the Holy Spirit. It felt like warm oil flowing over and in me from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet. I felt so light I looked down to see if I was floating.
From that point (1977) on 100% of my prayers have been answered. He still speaks to me often and given me all but two of the gifts of the Spirit. He has even performed miracles for me, like His turning water into wine in the Bible. For me it was a brass screw into my mother's lost three diamond engagement ring. I could go on and on about His supernatural power in my life. That is the grace of God in my life and how I know it is sooooooooo much more than unmerited favor. In the year 2000 in early June I was driving through the Arizona desert on my way back to California for a Spirit-filled Living Conference at my old church - Church On The Way with Jack Hayford who recently passed away in his sleep. God spoke again and said, "I am giving you the office of Teacher" and a desire for Jack to anoint me with oil for the office. And Jack did. Of course, he knew me because I received many visions and prophecies over the years I gave to him to read to the church. Since 2000 I prayed and asked God to wipe my mind clear of any false doctrines from my past and to reteach me His interpretation and meaning of every verse in the New Testament. He is still doing that. I learn new things over a couple years, like this last one about the double blessing of twos. From faith to faith is just one of many of the twos all tied together. As seen in Rev. 22:11 those who die righteous (the first faith) will remain righteous; those who die holy (the second longer period of faith) who will never stumble. That is perfection. He's still working on me. But I see by my reactions to people on the forums that He has matured me in how I respond to people. I'm not perfect yet, as you know, but I'm sure better than I was in my answered 15 years ago when I first found Christian forums. That's all for now.
Edit: Semitic writing styles. I also found recently another key word 'given' in John 17 that shows who God is giving to Jesus in John 6 and 10. The apostles only. They are also the only ones predestined in Ephesians 1.
Also, 1 John 1:5-10 every other verse is a constrast between light and dark - of God vs. darkness. 1 John 3 is also passage contrasts.
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TibiasDad
Active Member
First of all, thank you for sharing your experience; I appreciate your candor and in large part I am in agreement with the general principles you’ve outlined.
I think we are on similar wavelengths, but the turns in our paths of light are at different corners.
I will only respond to the excerpt quoted above for now however for the beginning of a divergent direction is always the place to start.
Grace and power are not synonymous, they are corresponding elements in God’s economy. They work together in harmony with God’s actions. A parallel is not to say they are the same thing, but that they are on the same path, going in the same direction like two cars traveling in the same directions towards the same destination.
In Wesleyan thought, the power of sin is broken at conversion; thus we are no longer slaves to sin. (There can be great difficulties at first in living this out, and there are too many reasons for this to enumerate here. but biblically, sin holds no power over us. Our old husband is dead and we are free!)
Entire Sanctification is the Wesleyan expression of God’s power infilling the believer to purify our desires so that no other desire is superior to the Spirit’s desires. It is a second and deeper cleansing that allows the Spirit to empower us in God’s work, through the gifts he gives us. It enables us to “love the Lord your God with all” our being. Our inclination is toward Him, not ourselves.
The key to this working consistently is “abiding in Christ”, or as I’ve heard it said, staying under the spigot! That is our responsibility. Perseverance finds the prize!
Doug
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charismaticlady
Active Member
In my personal studying the Bible and reviewing the teachings from the past and people on the different forums, the issue of "sanctification" came to the surface over and over. I noticed in the Bible it always seemed to be past-tense, but I realized there IS a process of some sort happening as we grow in the Lord. Looking back at that I realize God put that question in my mind for me to ask, because as soon as I asked what HE called the process if not "sanctification" He spoke and said, "glorification." Wow. I never heard any teacher say that in the present - only in terms of after we die and our bodies are changed, the exact opposite to Rev. 22:11 that says we will remain (inwardly) in the same state we were in when we died. That again is a more powerful grace than merely being set apart, the meaning of 'to sanctify.' We are already sanctified when we are cleansed and justified at ground zero. God opened my mind and the Word to see glorification everywhere - not sanctification, which used to mean to me and others on forums to overcome all sins. But God's already done that when He cleansed us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, setting in motion our glorification and perfection, just as you described the Wesleyan process. They just named it the wrong name, and in doing so weakened the thought of what is being done in us - being glorified and conformed into the image of Christ, Himself! Romans 8:29.
1 Corinthians 6:11 "But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." So, we are already fully set apart. We are His children, if we continue abiding in Him and submit totally to His will He speaks through our conscience. 1 John 3:21-24. All past tense in His children.
Romans 8:30 doesn't even include sanctification, but notice what it does include.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
So, not only is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith - Righteousness to Holiness, but Paul describes it again - from glory to glory.
The process to full glorification is clear in 2 Peter 1:5-7 of 2-11. (verse 10 shows at the end of that process we will "never stumble.")
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
I'm sure you recognize John 15:4 that those are the maturing of the fruit of the Spirit. And, the forums are the perfect place to mature the fruit of the Spirit and continue being glorified. Let the tone of all of our posts show no huffiness or pride, because God has a way of putting us in our place. I'm speaking to myself as well, but I have been practicing ever since God brought this to my attention and use editing when God pricks my spirit that I could say it better. I then literally run back to my office and edit out the scorn. That's not to say I don't try to help other members be aware of their tone as well. God wants us all to be made perfect. And He will finish what He started.
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The anointed get born again=The little flock( Luke 12:32)= 144,000 ( Rev 14:3)who are bought from the Earth) to rule as kings and priests on thrones beside Jesus( Rev 1:6-Rev 20:6) this is the bride of Christ. The great crowd isnt born again in that manner. They do however strip off the old personality and put on the new personality.( Ephesians 4:22-24)- kind of being born again in a sense.
Then how do you explain Greek scholars putting a god at John 1:1 in their translations? Abner Kneeland-1822-Compared Greek to English, side by side in his NT translation to prove to the world a god is correct. Plus ALL can look up John 1:1 and 2 Cor 4:4 in Greek by googling it- they find-The true living God at both spots is called a different Greek word than either the Word or satan is called. These 2 spots are the only 2 spots in NT where 2 are called God and god. The only possible reason the Word is given a different word, like satan is at 2 Cor 4:4 is to show the difference of God and god. One cannot translate both spots different=a god is 100% correct.
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