Which is it? 616 or 666?

[SteveB]

Kenneth Gentry and others explain the reasoning behind an early dating of Revelation to the time before the encircling of Jerusalem. I accepted this early dating a long time ago but more recently have listened to a portion of the Bruce Gore Youtube channel with his Revelation series. He explains the details convincingly. My main interest has then been with understanding Revelation 20.

So, you're taking the 60's view of the dating for it?
I do see an argument that describes the late 60's.
Apparently Irenaus and Eusebius both appear to pick a 90's date.

The problem I have with debating dates is that I have no way to validate them.
I don't have a time machine, and don't know anyone else who has one.
If I did, I would've used it decades ago.
But even then, nobody would believe it, because they weren't able to verify for themselves.
As such, I've decided to take the wait and see approach.

1 Corinthians 13:12 tells us that once in eternity, we'll know as we're known.
As we're known to the fullest possible measure by God (Hebrews 4:13), I have no problem with waiting.

That way I don't get stuck in stupid discussions that nobody else can thoroughly resolve either.

It frees me to focus on Jesus and the gospel, as well as learning what following Jesus means.

 

[mikesw]

So, you're taking the 60's view of the dating for it?
I do see an argument that describes the late 60's.
Apparently Irenaus and Eusebius both appear to pick a 90's date.

The problem I have with debating dates is that I have no way to validate them.
I don't have a time machine, and don't know anyone else who has one.
If I did, I would've used it decades ago.
But even then, nobody would believe it, because they weren't able to verify for themselves.
As such, I've decided to take the wait and see approach.

1 Corinthians 13:12 tells us that once in eternity, we'll know as we're known.
As we're known to the fullest possible measure by God (Hebrews 4:13), I have no problem with waiting.

That way I don't get stuck in stupid discussions that nobody else can thoroughly resolve either.

It frees me to focus on Jesus and the gospel, as well as learning what following Jesus means.

Sure. If you are not having a reason to be caught up in the debate, that is great. My interest of recent time has both been to understand Rev 20 and to alleviate fears and speculations that people have had.

 

[TomL]

It would be too great of a coincidence for Nero to be matching the two numbers on the face of it and not be the person revealed. Nero also lived up to the evil of this identity. It is not like he was an ice cream vendor just earning a living who happened to have the name matching these numbers in two languages.

LOL

Yep

 

[SteveB]

Sure. If you are not having a reason to be caught up in the debate, that is great. My interest of recent time has both been to understand Rev 20 and to alleviate fears and speculations that people have had.

Seems to be the most effective method to deal with fears, speculation that people have... is to
1- read the Bible for the purpose of understanding and learning.
2- seek God with a whole heart.
3- obey the gospel of Jesus.
4- believe in Jesus.

Do these, and you won't spend your eternity in the lake of fire.

Don't... under any circumstances whatsoever.... feed people lies that they can ignore what's written in scripture.

We don't tell people about Jesus because we want to control or manipulate them.

We tell people about Jesus so they can choose life and spend their eternity with Jesus.

 

[mikesw]

Seems to be the most effective method to deal with fears, speculation that people have... is to
1- read the Bible for the purpose of understanding and learning.
2- seek God with a whole heart.
3- obey the gospel of Jesus.
4- believe in Jesus.

Do these, and you won't spend your eternity in the lake of fire.

Don't... under any circumstances whatsoever.... feed people lies that they can ignore what's written in scripture.

We don't tell people about Jesus because we want to control or manipulate them.

We tell people about Jesus so they can choose life and spend their eternity with Jesus.

You have shared some decent points. My concern here is with Christians being in fear of passages that do not pertain to them. I would also like people to know what benefits Christ has for them.

 

[SteveB]

You have shared some decent points. My concern here is with Christians being in fear of passages that do not pertain to them.

those who are "IN Christ", they've been delivered from the judgment due sin (death/hell/lake of fire).
those who are merely religious and haven't actually experienced the new birth... they're still under condemnation for their sin.
Jesus gave us 3 key points regarding our eternal state before God.
Matthew 5:20 - righteousness must exceed mere outward morality (that of the scribes and pharisees).
Matthew 18:3 - we must become as a little child.
John 3:3-5. We must be born spiritually.

Failure to receive all of these excludes us from God's Kingdom.
Hint: all three are provided to us through trusting Jesus.

I would also like people to know what benefits Christ has for them.

2 Peter 1:2-13.
Titus 2:11-15
Build upon these.
As Peter says...
Everything we need for life and godliness are given to us through the knowledge of Him who has called us according to his glory and virtue.

Hosea 4:6 raises a serious issue...
God's people perish because of a lack of knowledge. Referring to His Word.

 

[mikesw]

those who are "IN Christ", they've been delivered from the judgment due sin (death/hell/lake of fire).
those who are merely religious and haven't actually experienced the new birth... they're still under condemnation for their sin.
Jesus gave us 3 key points regarding our eternal state before God.
Matthew 5:20 - righteousness must exceed mere outward morality (that of the scribes and pharisees).
Matthew 18:3 - we must become as a little child.
John 3:3-5. We must be born spiritually.

Failure to receive all of these excludes us from God's Kingdom.
Hint: all three are provided to us through trusting Jesus.


2 Peter 1:2-13.
Titus 2:11-15
Build upon these.
As Peter says...
Everything we need for life and godliness are given to us through the knowledge of Him who has called us according to his glory and virtue.

Hosea 4:6 raises a serious issue...
God's people perish because of a lack of knowledge. Referring to His Word.

It seems your focus is on a different aspect of uncertainty you are addressing. So your aid is on a different aspect than mine since I was within the details from Revelation

 

[SteveB]

It seems your focus is on a different aspect of uncertainty you are addressing. So your aid is on a different aspect than mine since I was within the details from Revelation

Jesus is the only one who has what we need to ensure we won't perish, or err.

It's kinda like walking around a field with a fence surrounding it.
If you're spending your time trying to find the boundaries, and what you can get away with, you'll miss what's available for succeeding in following Jesus.

Being someone who was an edge dweller, I finally began to realize... Edge dwelling isn't as great as they try to make it out as.

It's far more valuable to make your way into the middle of the field and ask the shepherd to do what he says he'd do for those who believe in him.

2Pe 1:8-11 WEB 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.


So, if you want to give people the resources to succeed in following Jesus, to no have to fret about the lake of fire....

Teach them to focus on Jesus.

 

[mikesw]

Jesus is the only one who has what we need to ensure we won't perish, or err.

It's kinda like walking around a field with a fence surrounding it.
If you're spending your time trying to find the boundaries, and what you can get away with, you'll miss what's available for succeeding in following Jesus.

Being someone who was an edge dweller, I finally began to realize... Edge dwelling isn't as great as they try to make it out as.

It's far more valuable to make your way into the middle of the field and ask the shepherd to do what he says he'd do for those who believe in him.

2Pe 1:8-11 WEB 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.


So, if you want to give people the resources to succeed in following Jesus, to no have to fret about the lake of fire....

Teach them to focus on Jesus.

I'm not sure why you would still want them living in fear of what might happen in the world around them even if they are confident of being justified in Christ. Does the foot do the same work as the hand? I do remember seeing a video of someone who, having no arms, had to use her feet to drive her car. But that is an exception.

 

[SteveB]

I'm not sure why you would still want them living in fear of what might happen in the world around them even if they are confident of being justified in Christ. Does the foot do the same work as the hand? I do remember seeing a video of someone who, having no arms, had to use her feet to drive her car. But that is an exception.

That's just it...

When we're settled in Christ, He actually takes away our fears, gives us His Peace, and His Joy.

 

[mikesw]

That's just it...

When we're settled in Christ, He actually takes away our fears, gives us His Peace, and His Joy.

Good. I'll keep focusing on helping people settle in Christ. That settles it!

 

[TomL]

So, you're taking the 60's view of the dating for it?
I do see an argument that describes the late 60's.
Apparently Irenaus and Eusebius both appear to pick a 90's date.

The problem I have with debating dates is that I have no way to validate them.
I don't have a time machine, and don't know anyone else who has one.
If I did, I would've used it decades ago.
But even then, nobody would believe it, because they weren't able to verify for themselves.
As such, I've decided to take the wait and see approach.

1 Corinthians 13:12 tells us that once in eternity, we'll know as we're known.
As we're known to the fullest possible measure by God (Hebrews 4:13), I have no problem with waiting.

That way I don't get stuck in stupid discussions that nobody else can thoroughly resolve either.

It frees me to focus on Jesus and the gospel, as well as learning what following Jesus means.

So you are not focusing on the harpazo?

 

[SteveB]

So you are not focusing on the harpazo?

Why, don't you know how to reason clearly?

 

[TomL]

Why, don't you know how to reason clearly?

The question was

So you are not focusing on the harpazo?

The answer does not seem to fit the question

 

[SteveB]

The question was

So you are not focusing on the harpazo?

The answer does not seem to fit the question

My question is the same.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Given that some MSS say the number is 616 and other 666, which do you think it the correct number?

Who cares???? "Eschatology" is nothing but a religious word meaning "Rank Speculation" anyway. So let the end times fiction writers spin their fantasies. I'll "Occupy till HE COMES", when it's time, OR (more likely) I'll die physically, and watch it all from the other side of the grass.

 

[mikesw]

Who cares???? "Eschatology" is nothing but a religious word meaning "Rank Speculation" anyway. So let the end times fiction writers spin their fantasies. I'll "Occupy till HE COMES", when it's time, OR (more likely) I'll die physically, and watch it all from the other side of the grass.

they always say the grass is greener on the other side.

Is it wrong to try to make sure we understand scripture right?

 

[TomL]

My question is the same.

So you answer a question with a question?

 

[SteveB]

So you answer a question with a question?

I see you don't actually understand history.
My question remains the same.

Post in thread 'Which is it? 616 or 666?' https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/which-is-it-616-or-666.1804/post-90468

 

[Bob Carabbio]

they always say the grass is greener on the other side.

Is it wrong to try to make sure we understand scripture right?

Nope, but it's also wise to understand that, since God in His entirety is well outside our ability to comprehend, there will be "Mysteries".

SO how do you propose to define authoritatively which "number" is right???? "Experts" will swear to one or the other, and all you really have is "human opinion", and human "theology".