Which is it? 616 or 666?

[The Rogue Tomato]

And who says I'm not looking for that blessed hope and appearing of our great God and Savior?

I taught a class (all but the last session) on end times chronology. The church canceled the last session because the wealthiest church contributor said I was robbing the church of the blessed hope. To his credit, one person called me and encouraged me to teach and not listen to people like that.

 

[SteveB]

Not a thing is stated about a rapture

So you believe it's important to escape the Millennial Kingdom?

And our blessed hope is the second coming

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Tit 2:11-15 WEB 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you.

Curious...

I don't recall saying otherwise.
You really should pay closer attention, and stop trying to make this about your opinions.

 

[Johann]

From Oxford dictionary.

[COLOR=var(--IXoxUe)]noun: [COLOR=var(--bbQxAb)]eschatology[/COLOR][/COLOR]

1. the part of theology concerned with death, judgment, and the final destiny of the soul and of humankind.
   [COLOR=var(--IXoxUe)]"Christian hope is concerned with eschatology, or the science of last things"​
2. ​

[/COLOR]

Red heifers, a rebuilt third temple, and the tribulation! A lot of stories are coming out about the end times. No doubt you have a very spirited opinion about all this! But the question is: How should we be engaging these stories? And how should we be thinking about the end?

Does the Bible help us to think about these things? I think it does! So let's get into it

Original video:

• Biblical Prophecies COME TRUE, The Re...

Wise Disciple has partnered with Logos Bible Software. Check out all of Logos' awesome features here: https://www.logos.com/WiseDisciple


God bless
Johann.

 

[Johann]

I taught a class (all but the last session) on end times chronology. The church canceled the last session because the wealthiest church contributor said I was robbing the church of the blessed hope. To his credit, one person called me and encouraged me to teach and not listen to people like that.

Keep on doing what you are called to do brother.
Johann.

 

[SteveB]

Red heifers,

I've heard this mentioned, but haven't paid a lot of attention to it

a rebuilt third temple,

according to Ezekiel 40-48, Malachi 3:1, 2 Thessalonians 2, yes, a 3rd temple will be built.

and the tribulation!

A lot of stories are coming out about the end times.

Indeed... don't you think that would make it all the more important to actually study the scriptures to make sure you understand and know?
especially when Jesus said,
Mat 24:4 WEB Jesus answered them, “Be careful that no one leads you astray.

And Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 5

1Th 5:1 WEB But concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need that anything be written to you.

No doubt you have a very spirited opinion about all this!

What do you think i base such opinions on?
man's stories or the Biblical narrative?

But the question is: How should we be engaging these stories?

Acts 17:11, 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22

And how should we be thinking about the end?

biblically!

Does the Bible help us to think about these things? I think it does! So let's get into it

Original video:

• Biblical Prophecies COME TRUE, The Re...

Wise Disciple has partnered with Logos Bible Software. Check out all of Logos' awesome features here: https://www.logos.com/WiseDisciple


God bless
Johann.

So, you present a story to criticize stories?
Really?

 

[Johann]

I've heard this mentioned, but haven't paid a lot of attention to it

according to Ezekiel 40-48, Malachi 3:1, 2 Thessalonians 2, yes, a 3rd temple will be built.



Indeed... don't you think that would make it all the more important to actually study the scriptures to make sure you understand and know?
especially when Jesus said,
Mat 24:4 WEB Jesus answered them, “Be careful that no one leads you astray.

And Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 5

1Th 5:1 WEB But concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need that anything be written to you.



What do you think i base such opinions on?
man's stories or the Biblical narrative?


Acts 17:11, 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22

biblically!

So, you present a story to criticize stories?
Really?

Indicative you have not review the video clip nor give it a listen-I am wasting precious time in giving you the link knowing this would be the reaction.

Matthew 24:36 (WEB)

"But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

Mark 13:32 (WEB)

"But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Acts 1:7 (WEB)

"He said to them, 'It isn’t for you to know times or seasons which the Father has set within his own authority.'"

1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 (WEB)

"But concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need that anything be written to you. For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night."

2 Peter 3:10 (WEB)

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."

Matthew 24:42 (WEB)

"Watch therefore, for you don’t know in what hour your Lord comes."

Matthew 25:13 (WEB)

"Watch therefore, for you don’t know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming."

Luke 12:39-40 (WEB)

"But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what hour the thief was coming, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore be ready also, for the Son of Man is coming in an hour that you don’t expect him."

Revelation 3:3 (WEB)

"Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you."

Revelation 16:15 (WEB)

"Behold, I come like a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his clothes, so that he doesn’t walk naked, and they see his shame."

These verses collectively emphasize the theme that the exact timing of Jesus' return and the end times is unknown and that believers are encouraged to remain vigilant and prepared.

Happy huntin'-I'm sure others will give the video clip a listen.

God bless
Johann

 

[civic]

Everyone who follows Jesus should be.
Especially in light of Titus 2:11-15.

Tit 2:11-15 WEB 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you.

Study this. Read it over and over again.
Look closely at vs 13.

We're supposed to be excited about the coming of Jesus.


looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,


This isn't about working to drum up emotional excitement.

God's Grace works it into us.

Amen

 

[civic]

I taught a class (all but the last session) on end times chronology. The church canceled the last session because the wealthiest church contributor said I was robbing the church of the blessed hope. To his credit, one person called me and encouraged me to teach and not listen to people like that.

Interesting you did not follow the churches cancellation of the class and did it anyways.

 

[SteveB]

Not a thing is stated about a rapture

And our blessed hope is the second coming

Something that an acquaintance noted regarding your complaint about the harpadzo...

Your consistent rejection of the harpadzo as the rapture is based on the belief that the term- rapture- isn't in the Bible.

Yet, they noted and I checked...
The term- second coming- isn't in the Bible either.

So, in fairness to your point...

You're basing your belief about the second coming on ideas which don't explicitly state, and use the term- second coming.

 

[TomL]

Something that an acquaintance noted regarding your complaint about the harpadzo...

Your consistent rejection of the harpadzo as the rapture is based on the belief that the term- rapture- isn't in the Bible.

Yet, they noted and I checked...
The term- second coming- isn't in the Bible either.

So, in fairness to your point...

You're basing your belief about the second coming on ideas which don't explicitly state, and use the term- second coming.

Wrong I do interpret harpadzo as the rapture

I just deny it transpires before the second coming

and btw

John 14:3 (UASV) — 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself, so that where I am, you may be also.

that would be the second coming

1 Thessalonians 4:13–17 (KJV 1900) — 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:22–28 (KJV 1900) — 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Given that some MSS say the number is 616 and other 666, which do you think it the correct number?

Wallace talks about the issue here....

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2250645825055945

I found this web archive link for the manuscript that once at https://manuscripts.csntm.org/

I didn't vet it.

I believe they once had it listed but I believe the owner of the manuscript asked for the document not to be shared online.

 

[SteveB]

Wrong I do interpret harpadzo as the rapture

I just deny it transpires before the second coming

and btw

John 14:3 (UASV) — 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself, so that where I am, you may be also.

that would be the second coming

1 Thessalonians 4:13–17 (KJV 1900) — 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:22–28 (KJV 1900) — 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Yet the term, second coming, isn't in the Bible.
Exactly like rapture.
Furthermore, there's only 45 days until the thousand year millenium.

So what is Jesus saying we want to escape (Luke 21:36)?
45 days of judgment doesn't leave any time for the events Jesus describes in Luke 21:8-35.
Once the SHTF, and everything is an absolute nightmare, there's no room for deception.

Jesus is saying we really don't want to be there. We want to stand before Him.

So... if the harpadzo and the second coming are simultaneous, what is he saying we want to escape?

 

[TomL]

Yet the term, second coming, isn't in the Bible.
Exactly like rapture.
Furthermore, there's only 45 days until the thousand year millenium.

So what is Jesus saying we want to escape (Luke 21:36)?
45 days of judgment doesn't leave any time for the events Jesus describes in Luke 21:8-35.
Once the SHTF, and everything is an absolute nightmare, there's no room for deception.

Jesus is saying we really don't want to be there. We want to stand before Him.

So... if the harpadzo and the second coming are simultaneous, what is he saying we want to escape?

45 days until the thousand year millenium?

Where did you dredge up that fairy tale?

1Th 4:15 plainly associates the catching up of the living and the resurrection of the dead at the last day when Christ returns

1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 (KJV 1900) — 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

you cannot change that based on your rationalization


BTW you might want to look a little close at Luke 21

Luke 21:20–24 (KJV 1900) — 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

[TomL]

So you believe it's important to escape the Millennial Kingdom?

Where did I speak of escaping the millennial kingdom?

This is pure fantasy

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Tit 2:11-15 WEB 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you.

Curious...

I don't recall saying otherwise.
You really should pay closer attention, and stop trying to make this about your opinions.

Um you made the rapture the Christians hope not the second coming

 

[Johann]

Something that an acquaintance noted regarding your complaint about the harpadzo...

Your consistent rejection of the harpadzo as the rapture is based on the belief that the term- rapture- isn't in the Bible.

Yet, they noted and I checked...
The term- second coming- isn't in the Bible either.

So, in fairness to your point...

You're basing your belief about the second coming on ideas which don't explicitly state, and use the term- second coming.

ekdémeó: to be away from home, absent
Original Word: ἐκδημέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ekdémeó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-day-meh'-o)
Definition: to be away from home, absent
Usage: I go abroad, am absent.
HELPS Word-studies
1553 ekdēméō (from 1537 /ek, "out from and to" and 1218 /dḗmos, "a population, people") – properly, out from home, i.e. with the outcome of being absent ("away from home"). It only occurs in 2 Cor 5:6-9.

1553 /ekdēméō ("being absent") portrays believers who are still alive as being "away from home" (heaven), i.e. because still living in a mortal, physical body (2 Cor 5:6). At Christ's return, all believers will be resurrected/raptured from the earth, leaving the "old home" of the unglorified body on the present earth to experience glorification. See Rev 19:7-9.

1553 (ekdēmeō) is always used positively, of the desire to be absent (away) from the restrictions of this world and going on to enjoy God's manifest glory.

Strong's Greek: 1553. ἐκδημέω (ekdémeó) -- To be away from home, to be absent

 

[SteveB]

45 days until the thousand year millenium?

Yep.

Where did you dredge up that fairy tale?

1Th 4:15 plainly associates the catching up of the living and the resurrection of the dead at the last day when Christ returns

1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 (KJV 1900) — 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

you cannot change that based on your rationalization


BTW you might want to look a little close at Luke 21

Luke 21:20–24 (KJV 1900) — 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Do you possess the faculty to count?

Dan 12:11-12 WEB 11 “From the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there will be one thousand two hundred ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

"Do you possess the faculty to count?"

Why is it always the people who are convinced they are right about everything so snarky and condescending with their responses? Personally, I will never engage in a discussion with them again.

 

[SteveB]

ekdémeó: to be away from home, absent
Original Word: ἐκδημέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ekdémeó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-day-meh'-o)
Definition: to be away from home, absent
Usage: I go abroad, am absent.
HELPS Word-studies
1553 ekdēméō (from 1537 /ek, "out from and to" and 1218 /dḗmos, "a population, people") – properly, out from home, i.e. with the outcome of being absent ("away from home"). It only occurs in 2 Cor 5:6-9.

1553 /ekdēméō ("being absent") portrays believers who are still alive as being "away from home" (heaven), i.e. because still living in a mortal, physical body (2 Cor 5:6). At Christ's return, all believers will be resurrected/raptured from the earth, leaving the "old home" of the unglorified body on the present earth to experience glorification. See Rev 19:7-9.

1553 (ekdēmeō) is always used positively, of the desire to be absent (away) from the restrictions of this world and going on to enjoy God's manifest glory.

Strong's Greek: 1553. ἐκδημέω (ekdémeó) -- To be away from home, to be absent

Ok.
What's your point?
To be absent from the body is to be present with Jesus.
Great passage.
One of my favorites.

How does this apply to this discussion?

 

[SteveB]

"Do you possess the faculty to count?"

Why is it always the people who are convinced they are right about everything so snarky and condescending with their responses? Personally, I will never engage in a discussion with them again.

It's a pretty straightforward thing.
How much is between 1335 and 1290?
I count 45.
Am I wrong?
Does 1335 minus 1290 = 45?

 

[TomL]

"Do you possess the faculty to count?"

Why is it always the people who are convinced they are right about everything so snarky and condescending with their responses? Personally, I will never engage in a discussion with them again.

Indeed