When are believers in Christ ?

civic

Well-known member
Some think believers are in Christ prior to faith, prior to the new birth. But what does the Bible say ?

1- When he becomes a new creation- Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation ( 2 Cor 5:17 )
2- When he believes the gospel- And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit-( Eph 1:13 )
3- When you believe, through faith- In Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith ( Gal 3:26)

Notice it cannot be before hearing and believing the gospel prior to becoming a believer as Paul makes clear below in Romans 16:7.

Romans 16:7- Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

They were " IN CHRIST " before Paul was proving no one is in Christ prior to conversion. Paul was not in Christ before Junia and Andronicus.

Conclusion: In summary we become to be in Christ when we believe and are given the Holy Spirit after placing our faith in the gospel message of our salvation. No one is in Christ prior to hearing, believing the gospel. Then we are given the Holy Spirit and are sealed in Him. Faith comes before being in Christ, then we are given the Holy Spirit and we become the children of God. @Presby02

hope this helps !!!
 
1-How can 2 walk together unless they are united ?
2-Believers are united in Christ
3-We are in union with Christ
4-We are the bride of Christ
5-Marriage is a union of 2 people who willingly love each other.
6-Believers are married to Christ the Bridegroom.
7-Love is a 2 way street- 2 willing parties.
8-Our union in Christ is based upon love and faith.

hope this helps !!!
 
Expositor's Greek Testament

Ephesians 1:13. ἐν ᾧ καὶ ὑμεῖς: in whom ye also. The reading ἡμεῖς appears in certain manuscripts of importance ([68] [69] [70] [71]3, e, f, g, etc.); but the weight of documenttary authority is greatly on the side of ὑμεῖς. Taking, therefore, the καὶ ὑμεῖς, as contrasted with the previous ἡμᾶς, to refer to the readers of the Epistle as Gentiles in distinction from the writer and those whom he couples with himself as having formerly been Jews, we have in this verse and the following a paragraph which gives first a description of the evangelical standing and experience of Gentile Christians such as these Ephesians were, and then a statement of the fact that, in their case as in that of the others, God’s ultimate end in His gracious dealing with them was the praise of His glory. The opening clause, however, presents some difficulty. The sentence is left with something unexpressed, or its form is disturbed. How is it to be construed? It is natural to think first of explaining it by supplying some verb for the ὑμεῖς, and as the substantive verb is often left to be understood, some introduce ἐστέ here = “in whom ye also are,” “in whom ye also have a part” (Mey., Alf.). But the great Pauline formula ἐν Χριστῷ εἶναι can scarcely be dealt with thus, the εἶναι in it has too profound a sense to allow of its being dropped and left to be understood as is possible with the ordinary substantive verb. Others, therefore, look to the immediately preceding προηλπικότας for the word that is to be supplied (Erasm. Calv., Beza, Est., etc.; and so AV “in whom ye also trusted”). But to make this applicable to Gentile believers requires us (unless the Second Advent is supposed to be the object of the hope) to supply only ἠλπίκατε not προηλπίκατε, and to give the verb the modified sense of trusting or believing. Much more may be said in favour of supplying the definite verb ἐκληρώθημεν which rules the larger sentence (Erasm. in his Paraphrase, Cornel, a Lap., Harl., Olsh., etc.) = “in whom ye also were made God’s κλῆρος, or possession”. The comparative distance of the ἐν ᾧ καὶ ὑμεῖς from ἐκληρώθητε is no serious objection, especially in view of the fact that it is the definite verb, and not a qualifying participle, that is in view. There remains, however, yet another method of explanation, viz., to regard the sentence as an interrupted construction, in which the expression of the main thought, that of the ἐσφραγίσθητε, is delayed by other preliminary ideas, the second ἐν ᾦ being a resumption and continuation of the first (Theod. Mops., Jer., Beng., De Wette, Rück., Bleek, Bisp., Ell., Humphrey, Abb., Von Sod., Haupt). This solution of the difficulty appears on the whole to be the best, and it has been preferred by the majority of interpreters. It seems to be favoured by the Syr., Copt. and Eth. Versions, and is adopted by the RV—“in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed”. The interruption of the regular construction in the statement of the fact of their having been “sealed” appears to be caused by the introduction of the idea of the primary Christian requirement of faith after the mention of the hearing. It is objected that the distance between the one ἐν ᾧ and the other is much less than is usual in such cases, and that in a resumption we should expect not ἐν ᾧ καί, but ἐν ᾧ καὶ ὑμεῖς. But anacoloutha are quite in Paul’s way, and they are not all of one type or one extension (cf. Win.-Moul., p. 704), and the καί (minus the ὑμεῖς) is appropriate as giving an ascensive force to the πιστεύσαντες. This view of the construction has the advantage also of enabling us to retain substantially the same sense for the ἐν ᾧ in these three occurrences (Ephesians 1:11; Ephesians 1:13), and it makes the defining participles ἀκούσαντες (with its clause) and πιστεύσαντες important preparations for the statement of privilege in the ἐσφραγίσθητε, each contributing something proper in its own place to the order of ideas. Hence both the first ἐν ᾧ and the second are to be connected with the ἐσφραγίσηθητε = “in whom, on hearing and believing, ye were sealed”; it being in Christ, in virtue of our union with Him, that we receive the gift of the Spirit.—ἀκούσαντες: having heard (or, on hearing). This comes in its proper order, the first in the series of things, preparing the way for the sealing of the Spirit. In the narratives of cases of reception into the Christian Church in the Book of Acts we discover this order of grace: hearing, repentance, baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:37-38), or hearing, faith, baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 8:6; Acts 8:12; Acts 8:17). Yet this is not an invariable order. Sometimes only hearing, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 19:5-6) are mentioned; and in such instances as those of Paul (Acts 9:17) and the men of Cæsarea (Acts 10:44-47), the gift of the Holy Ghost appears to have preceded the administration of baptism. On the importance of hearing, that is, access to the preached word, cf. Romans 10:13-17, where the πιστεύειν is declared to come by the ἀκούειν.—τὸν λόγον τῆς ἀληθείας: the word of the truth. The λόγος here is evidently the word of preaching, and it is said to be “of the truth,” not with any particular reference, as Meyer justly observes, to the OT word as one that dealt with types and shadows rather than realities (Chrys.), or to the word of heathenism as the word of error (Corn. a Lap., etc.), but in the sense in which our Lord Himself spoke of the truth and the word (John 17:17; cf. Colossians 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:15; Jam 2:17). The gen. is not that of apposition (Harl.), but the gen. objecti, “the word concerning the truth;” or, as Ell. suggests, the gen. of ethical substance or ethical content, “the word of which the truth is the very essence, or content”.—τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τῆς σωτηρίας ὑμῶν: the gospel of your salvation. Further definition of “the word of the truth”. The preached word which has the truth for its essential content is that which brought you the good tidings of salvation. Here, again, the gen. is not that of appos. or identity (Harl., etc.), but most probably that of content or subject matter (Mey., Ell., etc.). Elsewhere we have the εὐαγγέλιον defined as that of the Kingdom (Matthew 9:35), of God (Romans 1:1), of the Kingdom of God (Mark 1:14), of Christ, Jesus Christ, His Son, etc. (Romans 1:1; Romans 1:9; Romans 1:16; Mark 1:1), of peace (Ephesians 6:15), of the grace of God (Acts 20:24), of the glory of the blessed God (1 Timothy 1:11), of the glory of Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4). Nowhere in the NT is the word εὐαγγέλιον used so frequently and in such a variety of applications as in the Pauline Epistles. It is never used in Luke’s Gospel, in John’s Gospel or Epistles, in Hebrews, or in James; in Matthew’s Gospel it occurs four times, in Mark eight times, in Acts twice, in Peter once, and in the Apocalypse once. The noun σωτηρία, which has so large a place in the rest of the Pauline writings, is of rare occurrence in these Epistles of the Captivity. It is found thrice in the Epistle to the Philippians, but only once in this profound Epistle to the Ephesians (in Ephesians 6:17 we have the other form τὸ σωτήριον), and not even once in the sister Epistle to the Colossians.—ἐν ᾧ:—in whom, I say. With the former ἐν ᾧ the writer turned from the case of those like himself who, having been Jews, had been made God’s κλῆρος in Christ, to that of Gentiles like these Ephesians who also had been made partakers of God’s grace in Christ, though in a different way, not as having had the hope of the Jews in a promised Messiah, but simply as having heard the word of Christian preaching. The particular gift of grace which it was in his mind to state as bestowed on these Gentile Christians was the sealing of the Spirit. With this second ἐν ᾧ, “—in whom, I say,” he takes up the statement which had been interrupted by the mention of the way in which they had come to receive the grace, and brings it (with a further reference to the antecedents to the sealing) to its intended conclusion. This ἐν ᾧ, therefore, is not to be dealt with differently from the former and made to relate to the εὐαγγέλιον, as if = “in which Gospel having also believed, ye were sealed” (Mey.). It simply continues the idea of the previous ἐν ᾧ, expressing the fact that the grace which came to the Gentile who heard the word of preaching, like the grace which came to the Jew who had the Messianic hope, was bestowed “in Christ,” and had its ground in Him.—καὶ πιστεύσαντες: having also believed. The καί belongs not to an implied ὑμεῖς but to the πιστεύσαντες. It is the ascensive καί, adding to the first condition of hearing the second and higher of believing. The object of the πιστεύσαντες is the previous λόγον τῆς ἀληθείας, “having also believed that word of preaching;” not the ᾧ, “believing also in whom” (Calv., Bez., Mey.). In Biblical Greek the phrase πιστεύειν ἔν τινι is of very rare occurrence, especially in the sense of believing or confiding in a person (Psalm 78:22; Jeremiah 12:6). In Mark 1:1 it has τὸ εὐαγγέλιον as the object. In John 3:15 both the reading and the connection are uncertain; in John 16:30 the idea is “by this”. The πιστεύσαντες here expresses something prior to the fact conveyed by the definite verb, not contemporaneous with it (Harl.). The sealing was in Christ (ἐν ᾧ), and it followed on their πίστις.—ἐσφραγίσθητε: ye were sealed. The verb σφραγίζειν (= חָתַס) in the NT expresses several distinct ideas, e.g., confirming or authenticating (John 3:32; John 6:27; cf. σφραγίς in Romans 4:11; 1 Corinthians 9:2); securing (Matthew 27:66; Revelation 20:3); keeping secret (Revelation 10:4; Revelation 22:10; cf. σφραγίς in Revelation 5:1-2; Revelation 5:5; Revelation 5:9; Revelation 6:1; Revelation 8:1, etc.); marking as one’s possession or as destined for something (Revelation 8:3-8; cf. σφραγίς in 2 Timothy 3:4; Revelation 9:4). Here and in Ephesians 4:30 the idea seems to be either that of authenticating or certifying them to be of God’s heritage, or that of marking them as such. The two ideas are near akin.

Conclusion: As demonstrated in the OP the Greek also confirms the order of being in Christ. First one must hear the gospel. Second one must believe the gospel. Third one after hearing and believing the gospel then becomes in Christ and is sealed with the Holy Spirit.

hope this helps !!!
 
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How do you know you are in Christ ?

You are a new creation in Christ through the new birth when God sealed you with the Holy Spirit after you heard and believed the gospel of your salvation as per Ephesians 1:13. This passage below is evidence/proof that this has taken place in ones life who has been born from above.

2 Corinthians 5:17- Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Colossians 3
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears,then you also will appear with him in glory.

5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.[b] 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

These words may be rendered there is a new creation, i.e. a new creation takes place within him. Whosoever is united to Christ by faith, possesses in himself the gift of a Divine, regenerated, spiritual humanity which Christ gives through his Spirit (cf. John 5:21; John 6:33; John 6:39-40; John 6:54; John 6:57; 1 Corinthians 15:45; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 Peter 2:2; and 2 Peter 1:4. Also chap. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, 2 Corinthians 3:18, 2 Corinthians 4:11, 2 Corinthians 5:5). This life, which he possessed not before, is in fact a new creation of the whole man, “not to be distinguished from regeneration.” Meyer. So also Chrysostom. Cf. John 1:13; John 3:3; John 3:5; Titus 3:5. The margin of the A. V. renders let him be, which is grammatically admissible, but hardly suits the context.

old things] Literally, the old things. Cf. the ‘old man,’ Romans 6:6; Ephesians 4:22; Colossians 3:9; the ‘former conversation’ or manner of living, before the soul was dominated by the Spirit of Christ.

are past away] Literally, passed away, i.e. at the moment of conversion. But as the Dean of Peterborough has shewn in the Expositor, Vol. vii. pp. 261–263, this strict use of the aorist cannot be always pressed in Hebraistic Greek.

behold, all things are become new] Many MSS., versions and recent editors omit ‘all things.’ The passage then stands ‘behold, they are become new.’ If we accept this reading, the passage speaks more clearly of a conversion of the whole man as he is, thoughts, habits, feelings, desires, into the image of Christ. The old is not obliterated, it is renovated. As it stands in the A.V. it relates rather to a substitutionof a new nature for the old. Isaiah 43:18-19; Revelation 21:5.Cambridge

hope this helps !!!
 
If one is already in Christ prior to hearing and believing the gospel then it's impossible to become a new creation in Christ. See the problem for the calvinist ?

Calvinists have themselves placed in Christ before creation, before they were born, before they heard the gospel, before they believed the gospel and repented of their sins.

Once again we clearly see the cart is before the horse in that systematic. @Presby02 @The Rogue Tomato
 
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Some think believers are in Christ prior to faith, prior to the new birth. But what does the Bible say ?

1- When he becomes a new creation- Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation ( 2 Cor 5:17 )
2- When he believes the gospel- And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit-( Eph 1:13 )
3- When you believe, through faith- In Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith ( Gal 3:26)

Notice it cannot be before hearing and believing the gospel prior to becoming a believer as Paul makes clear below in Romans 16:7.

Romans 16:7- Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

They were " IN CHRIST " before Paul was proving no one is in Christ prior to conversion. Paul was not in Christ before Junia and Andronicus.

Conclusion: In summary we become to be in Christ when we believe and are given the Holy Spirit after placing our faith in the gospel message of our salvation. No one is in Christ prior to hearing, believing the gospel. Then we are given the Holy Spirit and are sealed in Him. Faith comes before being in Christ, then we are given the Holy Spirit and we become the children of God. @Presby02

hope this helps !!!
From the foundation of the world. See Ephesians 1
 
If one is already in Christ prior to hearing and believing the gospel then it's impossible to become a new creation in Christ. See the problem for the calvinist ?

Calvinists have themselves placed in Christ before creation, before they were born, before they heard the gospel, before they believed the gospel and repented of their sins.

Once again we clearly see the cart is before the horse in that systematic. @Presby02 @The Rogue Tomato
From the foundation of the world. See Ephesians 1
 
From the foundation of the world. See Ephesians 1
Impossible as I have proven with several posts and scripture. It’s your doctrine talking not the Bible.

No one is in Christ until they believe. Eph 1:13

Paul declares Junias was in Christ before him.

End of discussion as Paul refutes Calvinism.

Romans 16:7- Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

So much for your in Christ heresy before creation. Paul exposed its false in Rom 16:7.

hope this helps !!!
 
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For the false teaching of being in Christ before the foundation of the world all of the elect would be in Christ at the same time.

Paul refutes this idea by saying Andronicus and Junia we’re in Christ before he was.

This makes being in Christ at conversion as they were saved( in Christ ) before Paul.

hope this helps !!!
 
Impossible as I have proven with several posts and scripture. It’s your doctrine talking not the Bible.

No one is in Christ until they believe. Eph 1:13

Paul declares Junias was in Christ before him.

End of discussion as Paul refutes Calvinism.

Romans 16:7- Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

So much for your in Christ heresy before creation. Paul exposed its false in Rom 16:7.

hope this helps !!!
Impossible? 😂 yet that is exactly what verse 4 says. In verse 4 it's God doing the choosing and that choice is from the foundation of the world.

WHOOPSIE, back to the drawing board. 😂
 
Ephesians 1:3-14 [NASB]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, [that is,] the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 1:3-14 [I included the whole paragraph to avoid chopping up Paul's thought] states "chose in him before the foundation of the world" and describes us as "predestined" twice in that paragraph. It deserves at least SOME explanation if you are going to take a sharpie to it with a blanket "taint so" and pit scripture against scripture.

Just as Romans 16:7 deserves some explanation if one is going to deny a temporal element. Lutherans would offer their battle cry of 'Mystery' to explain the things of God and we baptists tend to throw ourselves on "Already and not yet". Both you Free Will-ers and Presbytyrians are free to seek your own answers, but "taint so" is a poor response to an honest scriptural challenge.
 
Impossible? 😂 yet that is exactly what verse 4 says. In verse 4 it's God doing the choosing and that choice is from the foundation of the world.

WHOOPSIE, back to the drawing board. 😂
Nope verse 1 says those who are faithful in Christ.

One must be in Christ ( converted ) to be faithful .

You have the cart before the horse lol.
 
Nope verse 1 says those who are faithful in Christ.

One must be in Christ ( converted ) to be faithful .

You have the cart before the horse lol.
Nobody brought faithful except the trying to divert.

The choice is from the foundation of the world and it's God doing the choosing. Ephesians 1:4

hope this helps
 
Nobody brought faithful except the trying to divert.

The choice is from the foundation of the world and it's God doing the choosing. Ephesians 1:4

hope this helps
Verse 1 you skipped - to the faithful in Christ.

You can’t be faithful until you are born again and in Christ.

Next
 
Sounds like double talk
You mean like this ... "So the last shall be first, and the first last." - Jesus
or this ... “Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it." - Jesus
 
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