What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?

DavidTree said:
my Brother @Johann ,

i am looking forward to the scriptures from you that declare = "the rapture occurs first"

Thank You my Brother
Click to expand...
1 Corinthians 45 – 15:45-57
A Resurrection Mystery

1. 15:44-50 – The Spiritual Body Comes After

a. Paul taught death was abolished through the gospel – 2 Tim 1:9-10, Rom 6:10

b. Skeptics will reject Biblical answers to their questions - John 3:12, 2 Pet 3:1-4

c. Remember the natural man (after Adam) does not receive - 1 Cor 2:14, 3:1-2

d. What body do they come? Answer: a spiritual body, which comes after.

e. The earth, dirt, and dust does not affect your spiritual, heavenly body - 2 Cor 5:1

f. We respect dead bodies, knowing that life is eternal, but that body is done.

g. Flesh and blood cannot, not “does not” as if it could - Eph 5:5, Gal 5:21, 1Cor 6:10

2. 15:51-52 – A Resurrection Mystery

a. The mystery was not resurrection – Job 19:25-27, Heb 11:35, Acts 24:15

b. Prophecy was ignorant of Paul’s mystery here Eph 3:5, Rom 16:25, Col1 :26

c. The best proof for the “pre-trib” coming is right division – 1Thess 5:1-5

d. Not all saints will die, some will remain (ammillennialism is wrong): 1 Thess 4:17

e. We shall all be changed: the resurrection is not our current bodies – Rom 8:23-24

f. “at the last trump” is not the trumpet of judgment in Rev 11:15

i. The angels declared the end of what the prophets wrote -Rev 10:7

ii. Their instruction is patient obedience to the commandments - Rev14:12

iii. Charting based on trumpet sounds is a lost cause: Num 10:1-10, Joel 2:1

iv. Matt 24:31 is talking about Israel at the 2nd coming, Eze 36:24, 27:21, 39:27

v. Our destiny is heavenly places, not a land – Col 3:1-3, Titus 2:13, Eph 2:6

3. 15:53-57 – The Victory Over Death

a. “must put on” – There must needs be a change for resurrection – Rom 13:14

b. You are justified by faith in Christ, you have eternal life in Christ – Rom 5:1, 6:23

c. But, you have not put on incorruption or immortality bodily yet – Rom 8:24-30

d. When the Lord comes is when we are glorified in him – Rom 8:18, Phil 3:20-21

e. Prophecy spoke of resurrection, but has not come to pass yet – Isa 25:8, Hos 13:14

f. At the redemption of our bodies is when death is swallowed up, til then all die.

g. Death hurts because of sin which condemns and kills – Rom 6:21

h. God’s law strengthens sin, it does not remove it – Rom 3:20, 4:15, 5:13, 5:20, 7:8-9

i. God gives the victory through Christ’s resurrection – Rom 8:14, 8:35-39, 4:25
 
DavidTree said:
These are your words:
"Exactly. Many are called, few are chosen.
It is not just the apostles, there are other offices also in Ephesians 4. Notice the word "gave."
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,"

According to your own words from post #108 = "gave" and "given" are past tense and therefore those scriptures do not apply to you.
Here are your own words again:

"Did you know that the verses you were quoting in John 17 is a prayer to the Father about His apostles. John uses key words in his writings.
The key word about the disciples is the word "given" of "gave."
As in Ephesians 1 we see that verses 1-12 is again about the apostles as , those who first believed. Now going back to John look at chapter 10. See the key word given again? It is they that are never going to be snatched out of God's hand, because the were "given" to Jesus by the Father. "29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
The western church doesn't always understand eastern writing styles."

@charismaticlady says: "Verse 20-26 was after His prayer for the apostles, then after that, He went back to praying for the apostles from 24 down.
The point is the word "gave" or "given" was not used in speaking of those who will believe in Me through their word."

By your own words then, Ephesians does not apply to you since "gave" is past tense.
As of right now your 'advanced' knowledge is tainted with confusion and denial along with manipulation.
God is not the author of confusion so you are in need of fellowship in the Holy Spirit because HE will never lie nor confuse us.
Click to expand...
You misunderstood then. It is the word, NOT the tense, that points to special offices in the church that God predestined and chose. See how Paul uses "predestined" when talking of himself and the rest of the apostles in Ephesians 1:3-12. But Calvinists misappropriate Paul's words to their shame.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
 
Johann said:
1 Corinthians 45 – 15:45-57
A Resurrection Mystery

1. 15:44-50 – The Spiritual Body Comes After

a. Paul taught death was abolished through the gospel – 2 Tim 1:9-10, Rom 6:10

b. Skeptics will reject Biblical answers to their questions - John 3:12, 2 Pet 3:1-4

c. Remember the natural man (after Adam) does not receive - 1 Cor 2:14, 3:1-2

d. What body do they come? Answer: a spiritual body, which comes after.

e. The earth, dirt, and dust does not affect your spiritual, heavenly body - 2 Cor 5:1

f. We respect dead bodies, knowing that life is eternal, but that body is done.

g. Flesh and blood cannot, not “does not” as if it could - Eph 5:5, Gal 5:21, 1Cor 6:10

2. 15:51-52 – A Resurrection Mystery

a. The mystery was not resurrection – Job 19:25-27, Heb 11:35, Acts 24:15

b. Prophecy was ignorant of Paul’s mystery here Eph 3:5, Rom 16:25, Col1 :26

c. The best proof for the “pre-trib” coming is right division – 1Thess 5:1-5

d. Not all saints will die, some will remain (ammillennialism is wrong): 1 Thess 4:17

e. We shall all be changed: the resurrection is not our current bodies – Rom 8:23-24

f. “at the last trump” is not the trumpet of judgment in Rev 11:15

i. The angels declared the end of what the prophets wrote -Rev 10:7

ii. Their instruction is patient obedience to the commandments - Rev14:12

iii. Charting based on trumpet sounds is a lost cause: Num 10:1-10, Joel 2:1

iv. Matt 24:31 is talking about Israel at the 2nd coming, Eze 36:24, 27:21, 39:27

v. Our destiny is heavenly places, not a land – Col 3:1-3, Titus 2:13, Eph 2:6

3. 15:53-57 – The Victory Over Death

a. “must put on” – There must needs be a change for resurrection – Rom 13:14

b. You are justified by faith in Christ, you have eternal life in Christ – Rom 5:1, 6:23

c. But, you have not put on incorruption or immortality bodily yet – Rom 8:24-30

d. When the Lord comes is when we are glorified in him – Rom 8:18, Phil 3:20-21

e. Prophecy spoke of resurrection, but has not come to pass yet – Isa 25:8, Hos 13:14

f. At the redemption of our bodies is when death is swallowed up, til then all die.

g. Death hurts because of sin which condemns and kills – Rom 6:21

h. God’s law strengthens sin, it does not remove it – Rom 3:20, 4:15, 5:13, 5:20, 7:8-9

i. God gives the victory through Christ’s resurrection – Rom 8:14, 8:35-39, 4:25
Click to expand...
SAME Apostle who wrote 1st & 2nd Thessalonians also wrote 1 Corinthians.

Paul never changes his accounting of 1 Thess 4:13-18 wherein it is clearly stated:

A.) No Rapture until His Coming = 4:15
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

B.) No Rapture until AFTER the Resurrection = 4:15 = we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep/died.

C.) No Rapture until AFTER the Resurrection = 4:16 = For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

SAME apostle said the EXACT SAME Prophetic eschatology in 1 Cor ch15

15:51-52 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, and(FIRST) the dead will be raised incorruptible, (LAST) and we shall be changed.
 
charismaticlady said:
You misunderstood then. It is the word, NOT the tense, that points to special offices in the church that God predestined and chose.
Click to expand...
You may disagree-
Apostles and Prophets of the Church

Justin Johnson
“Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;” – Eph 3:5

Ephesians 3:5 mentions apostles and prophets that know the mystery of Christ. Sincere saints are troubled at this verse thinking that it either discounts Paul’s special apostleship, or shows that the mystery was known before Paul.

There is no need to be troubled about this verse right in the middle of one of the clearest passages about the mystery of Christ in Paul’s letters.

These are not the twelve apostles of the prophesied kingdom gospel, nor are they the prophets of the Old Testament.

These are apostles and prophets belonging to the church, the Body of Christ.

Paul First of All

There is no doubt that Paul’s apostleship is unique, having been separated by the Lord himself.

The mystery of Christ was first revealed to Paul, who was a “chosen vessel” sent as an apostle of Jesus Christ with a new dispensation of the gospel (Acts 9:15, 1 Cor 9:17).

Just a couple verses before the “trouble verse” of Eph 3:5, Paul explains that the dispensation was given to him regarding the mystery:

“If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery…” – Eph 3:2-3
To the Corinthians Paul declares that he delivered the gospel unto them “first of all” (1 Cor 15:3).

To the Romans Paul claims to be a separated apostle (Rom 1:1), and magnifies his office as the dispenser of God’s grace to Gentiles:

“For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:” – Rom 11:13

However, although he was the first apostle of the church he was not the only apostle.

Apostles of the Church

The church the Body of Christ had many apostles and prophets when it began nearly two thousand years ago.

Paul could not be everywhere at once. While he traveled ministering his gospel, others were recruited by the Spirit to help.

We should not forget that the Spirit gave gifts of prophecy and positions of apostleship to others after Paul in the newly revealed church of Christ’s body.

“…To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy;…” – 1 Cor 12:10
“And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, …” – 1 Cor 12:28
Timothy, Silvanus, and Epaphroditus are all called apostles by Paul in his letters (1 Thess 2:6, Phil 2:25).

It was these Spirit filled church apostles who also prophesied mystery truths as they were laying the foundation of the early church wherever they were sent (Eph 2:20).

After the church was established in mystery truth, these foundational gifts were no longer needed (1 Cor 13:10-11).

“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith…” – Eph 4:11-12
Twelve Apostles Excluded

None of the twelve apostles of the kingdom were also apostles of the church. The only foundation they laid was of Jesus Christ according to prophecy. The twelve apostles were apostles of Israel’s twelve tribes in their earthly kingdom.

None of the Twelve knew the mystery when they were sent with their gospel. When they were chosen by the Lord they did not know that Christ needed to die, not to mention anything about the mystery preaching of the cross (Luke 18:34).

The Spirit gave the Twelve understanding of what the prophets spoke since the world began at Pentecost, but not a word was spoken about the mystery kept secret since the world began (Acts 3:21; Acts 3:24 vs. Rom 16:25).

The apostles and prophets of Ephesians 3:5 can not possibly be anything but church apostles and prophets since Paul was the first to receive the mystery of Christ, and the only apostles and prophets who have knowledge of the mystery come after Paul as part of the church not Israel’s kingdom.

Top of the Page


Related Posts:
- What is Missing from the Apostles’ Creed
- What Moses and the Prophets Said Should Come…
- Pentecost Not the Beginning of the Mystery Church
- What Makes an Apostle?
- When Did the Church Begin?
- Do Prophets Exist Today?

Apostles and Prophets of the Church

graceambassadors.com graceambassadors.com
 
charismaticlady said:
You misunderstood then. It is the word, NOT the tense, that points to special offices in the church that God predestined and chose. See how Paul uses "predestined" when talking of himself and the rest of the apostles in Ephesians 1:3-12. But Calvinists misappropriate Paul's words to their shame.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
Click to expand...
Well according to your words the use of "we" and "gave" is only speaking of the apostles and/or only the Ephesian audience at that time in history.
 
Last edited:
DavidTree said:
SAME Apostle who wrote 1st & 2nd Thessalonians also wrote 1 Corinthians.

Paul never changes his accounting of 1 Thess 4:13-18 wherein it is clearly stated:

A.) No Rapture until His Coming = 4:15
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

B.) No Rapture until AFTER the Resurrection = 4:15 = we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep/died.

C.) No Rapture until AFTER the Resurrection = 4:16 = For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

SAME apostle said the EXACT SAME Prophetic eschatology in 1 Cor ch15

15:51-52 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, and(FIRST) the dead will be raised incorruptible, (LAST) and we shall be changed.
Click to expand...

Maybe this will help-since it is not a salvivic issue.
 
DavidTree said:
Well according to your words the use of "we" is only speaking of the apostles.
Click to expand...
"first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory". Paul is speaking of those "predestined" before the foundation of the world." It is only the apostles that those words describe.
 
Last edited:
DavidTree said:
SAME Apostle who wrote 1st & 2nd Thessalonians also wrote 1 Corinthians.

Paul never changes his accounting of 1 Thess 4:13-18 wherein it is clearly stated:

A.) No Rapture until His Coming = 4:15
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

B.) No Rapture until AFTER the Resurrection = 4:15 = we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep/died.

C.) No Rapture until AFTER the Resurrection = 4:16 = For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

SAME apostle said the EXACT SAME Prophetic eschatology in 1 Cor ch15

15:51-52 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, and(FIRST) the dead will be raised incorruptible, (LAST) and we shall be changed.
Click to expand...

--and maybe this will help for clarification.
 
charismaticlady said:
If John 6 I answered you on that. John again uses a derivative of the word "gave" and only the apostles did not leave Jesus. That should warn you that not everyone in the church is OSAS. That teaching which is only for the chosen offices should not even be taught. It affects only a few in the church.
Click to expand...
do what explain this what does this have to do with the rapture or 2nd coming of Christ
 
Johann said:
You may disagree-
Apostles and Prophets of the Church

Justin Johnson
“Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;” – Eph 3:5

Ephesians 3:5 mentions apostles and prophets that know the mystery of Christ. Sincere saints are troubled at this verse thinking that it either discounts Paul’s special apostleship, or shows that the mystery was known before Paul.

There is no need to be troubled about this verse right in the middle of one of the clearest passages about the mystery of Christ in Paul’s letters.

These are not the twelve apostles of the prophesied kingdom gospel, nor are they the prophets of the Old Testament.

These are apostles and prophets belonging to the church, the Body of Christ.

Paul First of All

There is no doubt that Paul’s apostleship is unique, having been separated by the Lord himself.

The mystery of Christ was first revealed to Paul, who was a “chosen vessel” sent as an apostle of Jesus Christ with a new dispensation of the gospel (Acts 9:15, 1 Cor 9:17).

Just a couple verses before the “trouble verse” of Eph 3:5, Paul explains that the dispensation was given to him regarding the mystery:

“If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery…” – Eph 3:2-3
To the Corinthians Paul declares that he delivered the gospel unto them “first of all” (1 Cor 15:3).

To the Romans Paul claims to be a separated apostle (Rom 1:1), and magnifies his office as the dispenser of God’s grace to Gentiles:

“For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:” – Rom 11:13

However, although he was the first apostle of the church he was not the only apostle.

Apostles of the Church

The church the Body of Christ had many apostles and prophets when it began nearly two thousand years ago.

Paul could not be everywhere at once. While he traveled ministering his gospel, others were recruited by the Spirit to help.

We should not forget that the Spirit gave gifts of prophecy and positions of apostleship to others after Paul in the newly revealed church of Christ’s body.

“…To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy;…” – 1 Cor 12:10
“And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, …” – 1 Cor 12:28
Timothy, Silvanus, and Epaphroditus are all called apostles by Paul in his letters (1 Thess 2:6, Phil 2:25).

It was these Spirit filled church apostles who also prophesied mystery truths as they were laying the foundation of the early church wherever they were sent (Eph 2:20).

After the church was established in mystery truth, these foundational gifts were no longer needed (1 Cor 13:10-11).

“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith…” – Eph 4:11-12
Twelve Apostles Excluded

None of the twelve apostles of the kingdom were also apostles of the church. The only foundation they laid was of Jesus Christ according to prophecy. The twelve apostles were apostles of Israel’s twelve tribes in their earthly kingdom.

None of the Twelve knew the mystery when they were sent with their gospel. When they were chosen by the Lord they did not know that Christ needed to die, not to mention anything about the mystery preaching of the cross (Luke 18:34).

The Spirit gave the Twelve understanding of what the prophets spoke since the world began at Pentecost, but not a word was spoken about the mystery kept secret since the world began (Acts 3:21; Acts 3:24 vs. Rom 16:25).

The apostles and prophets of Ephesians 3:5 can not possibly be anything but church apostles and prophets since Paul was the first to receive the mystery of Christ, and the only apostles and prophets who have knowledge of the mystery come after Paul as part of the church not Israel’s kingdom.

Top of the Page


Related Posts:
- What is Missing from the Apostles’ Creed
- What Moses and the Prophets Said Should Come…
- Pentecost Not the Beginning of the Mystery Church
- What Makes an Apostle?
- When Did the Church Begin?
- Do Prophets Exist Today?

Apostles and Prophets of the Church

graceambassadors.com graceambassadors.com
Click to expand...
The Church of Jesus is not particular to the Gentiles, the gospel went first to the Jews through the 12 apostles. What I find interesting about Paul is that he didn't learn any doctrine from the other apostles, only from the Spirit alone. That is why about 10 years ago, I prayed that God wipe my mind of all doctrine of men or demons, and reteach me from scratch. He started answering that prayer immediately. 1 John 2:27.
 
charismaticlady said:
The Church of Jesus is not particular to the Gentiles, the gospel went first to the Jews through the 12 apostles. What I find interesting about Paul is that he didn't learn any doctrine from the other apostles, only from the Spirit alone. That is why about 10 years ago, I prayed that God wipe my mind of all doctrine of men or demons, and reteach me from scratch. He started answering that prayer immediately. 1 John 2:27.
Click to expand...
Paul learned his doctrine from the risen Messiah-other than that, I agree with you.
 
Johann said:

EXACTLY​

the same response as to what Justin is teaching-I am giving links and teachings and nobody is listening.
Hopefully others will.
Shalom
J.
Click to expand...
Johann,

i have the Holy Scriptures sitting in my heart present in front of me to look at any scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

There is no need to reference a video MOST ESPECIALLY since you have the SAME scriptures in front of you!

Are we to believe a video over "It is written"?

Isaiah 1:18 says
“Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord,

God wants us to come to Him seeking Truth and that Truth comes from Him - Matthew 4:4
But JESUS answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”
 

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