What is the difference between eternal security, once saved always saved, and perseverance of the saints?

[Johann]

Just some questions that build on each other. Is it that Eternal Security is neglecting sanctification, or is it that in speaking to Eternal Security, they are only dealing with the irrevocability of salvation, prior to dealing with things like sanctification? Isn't Perseverance of the Saints simply a way of fleshing out eternal security? That is, we have eternal security, now lets explain how it works? One explanation being, Perseverance of the Saints?

I’d have to respectfully disagree with that statement, @armylngst.
Those who hold to Eternal Security do not, by default, neglect the biblical mandates of sanctification or perseverance in the faith.

In fact, many who affirm the security of the believer also emphasize that true salvation will inevitably bear the fruit of sanctification and ongoing faithfulness (John 15:5–6; Hebrews 12:14). As Jesus said, “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away” (John 15:2), and Paul affirmed that “those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires” (Galatians 5:24).

The assurance of salvation, rightly understood, is never a license for sin (Romans 6:1–2) but a foundation for growth in holiness and love (1 John 3:3; Titus 2:11–14).
Faith without works is dead (James 2:17)--and genuine, Spirit-wrought faith will persevere, not apart from effort, but through continual dependence on Christ (Philippians 2:12–13).

PERSEVERE

The biblical doctrines related to the Christian life are difficult to explain because they are presented in typically eastern dialectical pairs (see SPECIAL TOPIC: EASTERN LITERATURE [biblical paradoxes]). These pairs seem contradictory, yet both are biblical. Western Christians have tended to choose one truth and ignore or depreciate the opposite truth. Let me illustrate.

Is salvation an initial decision to trust Christ or a lifetime commitment to discipleship?
Is salvation an election by means of grace from a sovereign God or mankind's believing and repentant response to a divine offer?
Is salvation, once received, impossible to lose, or is there a need for continual diligence?
 The issue of perseverance has been contentious throughout church history. The problem begins with apparently conflicting passages of the NT:

texts on assurance
statements of Jesus (John 6:37; 10:28-29)
statements of Paul (Rom. 8:35-39; Eph. 1:13; 2:5,8-9; Phil. 1:6; 2:13; 2 Thess. 3:3; 2 Tim. 1:12; 4:18)
statements of Peter ( 1 Pet. 1:4-5)
texts on the need for perseverance
statements of Jesus (Matt. 10:22; 13:1-9,24-30; 24:13; Mark 13:13; John 8:31; 15:4-10; Rev. 2:7,17,26; 3:5,12,21)
statements of Paul (Rom. 11:22; 1 Cor. 15:2; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 1:6; 3:4; 5:4; 6:9; Phil. 2:12; 3:18-20; Col. 1:23; 2 Tim. 3:2)
statements of the author of Hebrews (Heb. 2:1; 3:6,14; 4:14; 6:4-12; 10:26-27)
statements of John (1 John 2:6; 2 John 9)
statement of the Father (Rev. 21:7)
Biblical salvation issues from the love, mercy, and grace of a sovereign Triune God. No human can be saved without the initiation of the Spirit (cf. John 6:44,65). Deity comes first and sets the agenda, but demands that humans must respond in faith and repentance, both initially and continually. God works with mankind in a covenant relationship. There are privileges and responsibilities! See SPECIAL TOPIC: COVENANT and SPECIAL TOPIC: KEEP

Salvation is offered to all humans (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; 4:42; 1 Tim. 2:4; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). Jesus' death dealt with the fallen creation's sin problem (cf. Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21). God has provided a way and wants all those made in His image to respond to His love and provision in Jesus. See SPECIAL TOPIC: YHWH'S ETERNAL REDEMPTIVE PLAN

If you would like to read more on this subject from a non-Calvinistic perspective, see

Dale Moody, The Word of Truth, Eerdmans, 1981 (pp. 348-365)
Howard Marshall, Kept by the Power of God, Bethany Fellowship, 1969
Robert Shank, Life in the Son, Westcott, 1961
The Bible is addressing two different problems in this area: (1) taking assurance as a license to live fruitless, selfish lives and (2) encouraging those who struggle with ministry and personal sin. The problem is that the wrong groups are taking the wrong message and building theological systems on limited biblical passages. Some Christians desperately need the message of assurance, while others need the stern warnings! Which group are you in?

There is a historical theological controversy involving Augustine versus Pelagius and Calvin versus Arminius (semi-Pelagian). The issue involves the question of salvation: if one is truly saved, must he persevere in faith and fruitfulness?



The Calvinists line up behind those biblical texts that assert God's sovereignty and keeping-power (John 10:27-30; Rom. 8:31-39; 1 John 5:13,18; 1 Pet. 1:3-5) and VERB TENSES like the perfect passive participles of Eph. 2:5,8.

The Arminians line up behind those biblical texts that warn believers to "hold on," "hold out," or "continue" (Matt. 10:22; 24:9-13; Mark 13:13; John 15:4-6; 1 Cor. 15:2; Gal. 6:9; Rev. 2:7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21; 21:7). I personally do not believe that Hebrews 6 and 10 are applicable, but many Arminians use them as a warning against apostasy. The parable of the Sower in Matthew 13 and Mark 4 addresses the issue of apparent belief, as does John 8:31-59. As Calvinists quote the PERFECT TENSE VERBS used to describe salvation, the Arminians quote the present tense passages like 1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 2:15.

This is a perfect example of how theological systems abuse the proof-texting method of interpretation. Usually a guiding principle or chief text is used to construct a theological grid by which all other texts are viewed. Be careful of grids from any source. They come from western logic, not revelation. The Bible is an eastern book. It presents truth in tension-filled, seemingly paradoxical pairs. Christians are meant to affirm both and live within the tension. The NT presents both the security of the believer and the demand for continuing faith and godliness. Christianity is an initial response of repentance and faith followed by a continuing response of repentance and faith. Salvation is not a product (a ticket to heaven or a fire insurance policy), but a relationship. It is a decision and discipleship. It is described in the NT in all VERB TENSES:

AORIST (completed action), Acts 15:11; Rom. 8:24; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5
PERFECT perfect (completed action with continuing results), Eph. 2:5,8
PRESENT (continuing action), 1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 2:15
FUTUREfuture (future events or certain events), Rom. 5:8,10; 10:9; 1 Cor. 3:15; Phil. 1:28; 1 Thess. 5:8-9; Heb. 1:14; 9:28

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE NEED TO PERSEVERE

Need to Persevere -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

freebiblecommentary.org

J.

 

[Foster]

Just some questions that build on each other. Is it that Eternal Security is neglecting sanctification, or is it that in speaking to Eternal Security, they are only dealing with the irrevocability of salvation, prior to dealing with things like sanctification? Isn't Perseverance of the Saints simply a way of fleshing out eternal security? That is, we have eternal security, now lets explain how it works? One explanation being, Perseverance of the Saints?

How it works. The good soil brought forth fruit unto perfection.

3 And He told them many things in parables (stories by way of illustration and comparison), saying, A sower went out to sow.
4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell by the roadside, and the birds came and ate them up.
5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they had not much soil; and at once they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.
6 But when the sun rose, they were scorched, and because they had no root, they dried up and withered away.
7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them out.
8 Other seeds fell on good soil, and yielded grain—some a hundred times as much as was sown, some sixty times as much, and some thirty.
9 He who has ears [to hear], let him be listening and let him consider and perceive and comprehend by hearing.
10 Then the disciples came to Him and said, Why do You speak to them in parables?
11 And He replied to them, To you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
12 For whoever has [spiritual knowledge], to him will more be given and he will be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
13 This is the reason that I speak to them in parables: because having the power of seeing, they do not see; and having the power of hearing, they do not hear, nor do they grasp and understand.
14 In them indeed is the process of fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: You shall indeed hear and hear but never grasp and understand; and you shall indeed look and look but never see and perceive.
15 For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them. [Isa. 6:9, 10.]
16 But blessed (happy, fortunate, and to be envied) are your eyes because they do see, and your ears because they do hear.
17 Truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous men [men who were upright and in right standing with God] yearned to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
18 Listen then to the [meaning of the] parable of the sower:
19 While anyone is hearing the Word of the kingdom and does not grasp and comprehend it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the roadside.
20 As for what was sown on thin (rocky) soil, this is he who hears the Word and at once welcomes and accepts it with joy;
21 Yet it has no real root in him, but is temporary (inconstant, lasts but a little while); and when affliction or trouble or persecution comes on account of the Word, at once he is caused to stumble [he is repelled and begins to distrust and desert Him Whom he ought to trust and obey] and he falls away.
22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the Word, but the cares of the world and the pleasure and delight and glamour and deceitfulness of riches choke and suffocate the Word, and it yields no fruit.
23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the Word and grasps and comprehends it; he indeed bears fruit and yields in one case a hundred times as much as was sown, in another sixty times as much, and in another thirty.
Mt 13:3–23.


The wayside soil, the stony soil, and the thorny soil represent three classes of persons who make improper responses to the preaching of the word and so do not become Christians. The good soil represents the class of persons who do make a proper response to the preaching of the word and so do become Christians.

Just as the seed in the good soil was nourished by nature until it brought forth fruit unto perfection, even so is the seed (the word of God) in the Christian nourished by God until it brings forth fruit unto perfection. In other words, God nourishes the seed sown in Christians until a harvest is realized. All Christians are fruitful but some Christians, being more yielded to God than other Christians, are more fruitful than other Christians.

 

[Johann]

How it works. The good soil brought forth fruit unto perfection.

3 And He told them many things in parables (stories by way of illustration and comparison), saying, A sower went out to sow.
4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell by the roadside, and the birds came and ate them up.
5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they had not much soil; and at once they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.
6 But when the sun rose, they were scorched, and because they had no root, they dried up and withered away.
7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them out.
8 Other seeds fell on good soil, and yielded grain—some a hundred times as much as was sown, some sixty times as much, and some thirty.
9 He who has ears [to hear], let him be listening and let him consider and perceive and comprehend by hearing.
10 Then the disciples came to Him and said, Why do You speak to them in parables?
11 And He replied to them, To you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
12 For whoever has [spiritual knowledge], to him will more be given and he will be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
13 This is the reason that I speak to them in parables: because having the power of seeing, they do not see; and having the power of hearing, they do not hear, nor do they grasp and understand.
14 In them indeed is the process of fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: You shall indeed hear and hear but never grasp and understand; and you shall indeed look and look but never see and perceive.
15 For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them. [Isa. 6:9, 10.]
16 But blessed (happy, fortunate, and to be envied) are your eyes because they do see, and your ears because they do hear.
17 Truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous men [men who were upright and in right standing with God] yearned to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
18 Listen then to the [meaning of the] parable of the sower:
19 While anyone is hearing the Word of the kingdom and does not grasp and comprehend it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the roadside.
20 As for what was sown on thin (rocky) soil, this is he who hears the Word and at once welcomes and accepts it with joy;
21 Yet it has no real root in him, but is temporary (inconstant, lasts but a little while); and when affliction or trouble or persecution comes on account of the Word, at once he is caused to stumble [he is repelled and begins to distrust and desert Him Whom he ought to trust and obey] and he falls away.
22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the Word, but the cares of the world and the pleasure and delight and glamour and deceitfulness of riches choke and suffocate the Word, and it yields no fruit.
23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the Word and grasps and comprehends it; he indeed bears fruit and yields in one case a hundred times as much as was sown, in another sixty times as much, and in another thirty.
Mt 13:3–23.


The wayside soil, the stony soil, and the thorny soil represent three classes of persons who make improper responses to the preaching of the word and so do not become Christians. The good soil represents the class of persons who do make a proper response to the preaching of the word and so do become Christians.

Just as the seed in the good soil was nourished by nature until it brought forth fruit unto perfection, even so is the seed (the word of God) in the Christian nourished by God until it brings forth fruit unto perfection. In other words, God nourishes the seed sown in Christians until a harvest is realized. All Christians are fruitful but some Christians, being more yielded to God than other Christians, are more fruitful than other Christians.

A deep, profound lesson here.

J.

 

[JLB]

How it works. The good soil brought forth fruit unto perfection.

3 And He told them many things in parables (stories by way of illustration and comparison), saying, A sower went out to sow.
4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell by the roadside, and the birds came and ate them up.
5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they had not much soil; and at once they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.
6 But when the sun rose, they were scorched, and because they had no root, they dried up and withered away.
7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them out.
8 Other seeds fell on good soil, and yielded grain—some a hundred times as much as was sown, some sixty times as much, and some thirty.
9 He who has ears [to hear], let him be listening and let him consider and perceive and comprehend by hearing.
10 Then the disciples came to Him and said, Why do You speak to them in parables?
11 And He replied to them, To you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
12 For whoever has [spiritual knowledge], to him will more be given and he will be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
13 This is the reason that I speak to them in parables: because having the power of seeing, they do not see; and having the power of hearing, they do not hear, nor do they grasp and understand.
14 In them indeed is the process of fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: You shall indeed hear and hear but never grasp and understand; and you shall indeed look and look but never see and perceive.
15 For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them. [Isa. 6:9, 10.]
16 But blessed (happy, fortunate, and to be envied) are your eyes because they do see, and your ears because they do hear.
17 Truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous men [men who were upright and in right standing with God] yearned to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
18 Listen then to the [meaning of the] parable of the sower:
19 While anyone is hearing the Word of the kingdom and does not grasp and comprehend it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the roadside.
20 As for what was sown on thin (rocky) soil, this is he who hears the Word and at once welcomes and accepts it with joy;
21 Yet it has no real root in him, but is temporary (inconstant, lasts but a little while); and when affliction or trouble or persecution comes on account of the Word, at once he is caused to stumble [he is repelled and begins to distrust and desert Him Whom he ought to trust and obey] and he falls away.
22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the Word, but the cares of the world and the pleasure and delight and glamour and deceitfulness of riches choke and suffocate the Word, and it yields no fruit.
23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the Word and grasps and comprehends it; he indeed bears fruit and yields in one case a hundred times as much as was sown, in another sixty times as much, and in another thirty.
Mt 13:3–23.


The wayside soil, the stony soil, and the thorny soil represent three classes of persons who make improper responses to the preaching of the word and so do not become Christians. The good soil represents the class of persons who do make a proper response to the preaching of the word and so do become Christians.

Just as the seed in the good soil was nourished by nature until it brought forth fruit unto perfection, even so is the seed (the word of God) in the Christian nourished by God until it brings forth fruit unto perfection. In other words, God nourishes the seed sown in Christians until a harvest is realized. All Christians are fruitful but some Christians, being more yielded to God than other Christians, are more fruitful than other Christians.

Please consider a closer look at this parable according to Luke.

There are a couple of principles to be discovered here.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Principle # 1 -

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Here is the condition for salvation… believe.

Those who believe will be saved. There is not a requirement here for baptism, or works or anything else.

Just believe.


Do you agree so far?


@Johann

 

[Johann]

@Johann

Please don't tag me.

J.

 

[Foster]

Please consider a closer look at this parable according to Luke.

There are a couple of principles to be discovered here.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Principle # 1 -

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Here is the condition for salvation… believe.

Those who believe will be saved. There is not a requirement here for baptism, or works or anything else.

Just believe.


Do you agree so far?


@Johann

I do agree with the "Believe part"... in the finished work of Jesus.

And I believe this​

8. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9, not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph. 2:8-9

And This

James 2:14 begins a discussion of faith without works and includes a vivid point by James that even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). The “faith” of demons is useless, even though they tremble at what they know to be true. People who say they “believe” in God while showing no evidence of faith have a level of “belief” similar to them... got?

 

[mailmandan]

I do agree with the "Believe part"... in the finished work of Jesus.

And I believe this​

8. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9, not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph. 2:8-9

And This

James 2:14 begins a discussion of faith without works and includes a vivid point by James that even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). The “faith” of demons is useless, even though they tremble at what they know to be true. People who say they “believe” in God while showing no evidence of faith have a level of “belief” similar to them... got?

Exactly and well said! In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance are in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. The demons also believe "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection "happened" (and so do "nominal" or pseudo-Christians) yet neither are not trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the all sufficient means of their salvation, which is believing in our heart and not just in our head. (Romans 10:8-10)

There is a difference between mere "mental assent" belief (as the demons have) and saving belief in Christ, which the demons and "nominal" or pseudo-Christians do not have. The same Greek word for believe (pisteuo) is used in James 2:19 and Acts 16:31. So, depending on the context, may or may not be saving belief.

Now unlike saving belief, shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not rooted in a regenerate heart and is not saving belief. (Luke 8:13) How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It doesn't so there is no loss of salvation here as some teach. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation."

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. *Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size/brought forth fruit with patience/perseverance (faith without works is dead) and was referred to as "good ground" and there is no mention of withering away afterwards.

 

[armylngst]

I’d have to respectfully disagree with that statement, @armylngst.
Those who hold to Eternal Security do not, by default, neglect the biblical mandates of sanctification or perseverance in the faith.

I think you misunderstand. I am not talking about those who hold to Eternal Security, but the idea of Eternal Security itself. There are a lot of "label" beliefs that are not fleshed out, but simply a statement. The question was, if Eternal Security was a statement of the irrevocability of salvation, but does not, in itself, deal with sanctification. One can hold to eternal security and believe in all kinds of additionals that are not contrary to eternal security. Perseverance of the Saints seems to be an extension of the base premise of Eternal Security that says that the irrevocability of salvation is based in God presevering the Saints in salvation and through sanctification. (very simplified)

In fact, many who affirm the security of the believer also emphasize that true salvation will inevitably bear the fruit of sanctification and ongoing faithfulness (John 15:5–6; Hebrews 12:14). As Jesus said, “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away” (John 15:2), and Paul affirmed that “those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires” (Galatians 5:24).

Again, I speak to what is meant by the term eternal security, not what its proponents hold to. When I speak to perseverance of the saints, it would better be termed, preservation of the saints, because some people just don't understand what perseverance of means next to perseverance BY. Perseverence of speaks to an external agency, whereas perseverence by would speak to the Saints keeping themselves in the faith. Hence preservation would probably be better understood terminology, with the understanding that it is by God, since He is the one who is the author of salvation. The question is not about those who hold to eternal security, but if perseverance of the saints is a fleshing out of the idea presented in the term eternal security.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I think you misunderstand. I am not talking about those who hold to Eternal Security, but the idea of Eternal Security itself. There are a lot of "label" beliefs that are not fleshed out, but simply a statement. The question was, if Eternal Security was a statement of the irrevocability of salvation, but does not, in itself, deal with sanctification. One can hold to eternal security and believe in all kinds of additionals that are not contrary to eternal security. Perseverance of the Saints seems to be an extension of the base premise of Eternal Security that says that the irrevocability of salvation is based in God presevering the Saints in salvation and through sanctification. (very simplified)

Again, I speak to what is meant by the term eternal security, not what its proponents hold to. When I speak to perseverance of the saints, it would better be termed, preservation of the saints, because some people just don't understand what perseverance of means next to perseverance BY. Perseverence of speaks to an external agency, whereas perseverence by would speak to the Saints keeping themselves in the faith. Hence preservation would probably be better understood terminology, with the understanding that it is by God, since He is the one who is the author of salvation. The question is not about those who hold to eternal security, but if perseverance of the saints is a fleshing out of the idea presented in the term eternal security.

I am sure many believe in eternal security, OSAS or whatever

and are not even saved

holding a doctrine does not save us

Trusting the gospel does.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I do agree with the "Believe part"... in the finished work of Jesus.

And I believe this​

8. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9, not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph. 2:8-9

And This

James 2:14 begins a discussion of faith without works and includes a vivid point by James that even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). The “faith” of demons is useless, even though they tremble at what they know to be true. People who say they “believe” in God while showing no evidence of faith have a level of “belief” similar to them... got?

amen!!

 

[Johann]

I am sure many believe in eternal security, OSAS or whatever

and are not even saved

holding a doctrine does not save us

Trusting the gospel does.

@Eternally-Grateful
Look brother, I appreciate you "waltzing" in here and I do agree with your statement--but this is a discussion, a back-and-forth exchange--for the benefit of others following along, you understand?

And, I appreciate your input and even agree with parts of it--but this conversation isn’t just about making statements, it’s about honest dialogue, mutual sharpening (Proverbs 27:17), and edifying others who are watching and learning--do you see?

And perseverance isn’t just an idea--it’s a command and a mark of true discipleship. Consider Romans 2:7, “to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life.” The verb used for "perseverance" is καθ’ ὑπομονὴν (kata hupomonēn)--from ὑπομονή (steadfast endurance), a noun derived from the verb ὑπομένω (hypomenō), “to remain under,” “to endure.”

James 1:12 also uses this term: “Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial…” -- μακάριος ἀνὴρ ὃς ὑπομένει πειρασμόν (makarios anēr hos hypomenei peirasmon). The verb ὑπομένει is present active indicative, meaning “he continues to endure.”

Jesus Himself says in Matthew 10:22, “But the one who endures to the end will be saved.” -- ὁ δὲ ὑπομείνας εἰς τέλος οὗτος σωθήσεται (ho de hypomeinas eis telos houtos sōthēsetai). ὑπομείνας is an aorist active participle of ὑπομένω, meaning “having endured.”

So yes, perseverance is biblical--tied directly to salvation, and not optional. And discussions like this sharpen our understanding, especially when rooted in the actual language of the text.

If you hold to pacifism, that’s fine--I respect that. But I’m not a pacifist myself, and I hope you can understand where I’m coming from.

You agree?

J.

 

[Johann]

Again, I speak to what is meant by the term eternal security, not what its proponents hold to. When I speak to perseverance of the saints, it would better be termed, preservation of the saints, because some people just don't understand what perseverance of means next to perseverance BY. Perseverence of speaks to an external agency, whereas perseverence by would speak to the Saints keeping themselves in the faith. Hence preservation would probably be better understood terminology, with the understanding that it is by God, since He is the one who is the author of salvation. The question is not about those who hold to eternal security, but if perseverance of the saints is a fleshing out of the idea presented in the term eternal security.

@armylngst

Brother, I appreciate your attempt to distinguish terms like “eternal security,” “perseverance,” and “preservation”--but the biblical text does not reduce these categories to semantic constructs; it roots them in active, ongoing participation between God and the believer. The Greek verbs themselves bear witness to this.

You said that “perseverance of the saints” sounds like an external agency, while “perseverance by” speaks of human action--but that contrast is not reflected in the actual language of Scripture. The New Testament consistently portrays perseverance using active or present participles, showing that believers are not passive recipients, but active participants.

Take for example Colossians 1:23 — “if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast…” — the Greek verb here is ἐπιμένετε (epimenete), present active indicative of ἐπιμένω, which means “to persist,” “to remain upon.” This verb is in the active voice, indicating the subject (the believer) is the one performing the action. This is not preservation imposed upon someone; it is a call to remain.

Similarly, Hebrews 3:14 states, “For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.”

The phrase “hold fast” is from κατάσχωμεν (kataschōmen), aorist subjunctive active of κατέχω, “to retain, hold firmly.” Again, it is conditional and active--it is something we must do.

The Lord Jesus also teaches in John 15:6, “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up…” -- “abide” is from μένῃ (menē), present active subjunctive of μένω, another term of ongoing perseverance.

But this is not a doctrine of self-reliance. Paul clarifies in Philippians 2:12–13: “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” The synergy is clear—κατεργάζεσθε (katergazesthe, “you work out,” present middle imperative) and ἐνεργῶν (energōn, “is working,” present active participle). The believer works, because God works within him.

So when you suggest that "preservation" is the better term, I would urge you to consider that Scripture never uses a passive or completed verb to describe salvation maintenance.

Instead, verbs like μένω, ἐπιμένω, ὑπομένω, and κατέχω stress continuous, volitional, Spirit-enabled endurance.

The preservation of God is real--but He preserves those who continue. Not because we earn salvation, but because endurance is the evidence of genuine faith (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 10:36). That is not external agency alone--that is the very definition of perseverance.

Let us not create artificial dichotomies between God's sustaining grace and the believer’s active endurance. Scripture teaches both.

All good? Then it sounds like you and @Eternally-Grateful are riding the same train.

But when you avoid using Scripture and start redefining key terms, that raises a red flag for me--I don’t appreciate that approach.

Very, very "simplified"

J.

 

[armylngst]

I am sure many believe in eternal security, OSAS or whatever

and are not even saved

holding a doctrine does not save us

Trusting the gospel does.

That is true.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

@Eternally-Grateful
Look brother, I appreciate you "waltzing" in here and I do agree with your statement--but this is a discussion, a back-and-forth exchange--for the benefit of others following along, you understand?

Yes. I do not understand why you would make this comment to me though

And, I appreciate your input and even agree with parts of it--but this conversation isn’t just about making statements, it’s about honest dialogue, mutual sharpening (Proverbs 27:17), and edifying others who are watching and learning--do you see?

Yes. Again, but I do not see why your saying this to me

And perseverance isn’t just an idea--it’s a command and a mark of true discipleship. Consider Romans 2:7, “to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life.” The verb used for "perseverance" is καθ’ ὑπομονὴν (kata hupomonēn)--from ὑπομονή (steadfast endurance), a noun derived from the verb ὑπομένω (hypomenō), “to remain under,” “to endure.”

James 1:12 also uses this term: “Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial…” -- μακάριος ἀνὴρ ὃς ὑπομένει πειρασμόν (makarios anēr hos hypomenei peirasmon). The verb ὑπομένει is present active indicative, meaning “he continues to endure.”

Jesus Himself says in Matthew 10:22, “But the one who endures to the end will be saved.” -- ὁ δὲ ὑπομείνας εἰς τέλος οὗτος σωθήσεται (ho de hypomeinas eis telos houtos sōthēsetai). ὑπομείνας is an aorist active participle of ὑπομένω, meaning “having endured.”

So yes, perseverance is biblical--tied directly to salvation, and not optional. And discussions like this sharpen our understanding, especially when rooted in the actual language of the text.

You want to earn your way to heaven by persevere feel free. (This is what I read from what you just said here)

I know God will keep me..

I will persevere in trials and tribulation and suffering and all the rest of the things we endure at times on a daily basis

But not in hopes God may save me, but because I know he has. And because of that I do not have to suffer. I can considerr it like Paul a momentary light affliction

If you hold to pacifism, that’s fine--I respect that. But I’m not a pacifist myself, and I hope you can understand where I’m coming from.

You agree?

J.

I am not a pacifist either

But I will not stand by while people tell others they have to work to earn the gift of life without calling out what they are saying and giving another opinion

 

[Johann]

I know God will keep me..

I will persevere in trials and tribulation and suffering and all the rest of the things we endure at times on a daily basis

Good, we agree on this.

But I will not stand by while people tell others they have to work to earn the gift of life without calling out what they are saying and giving another opinion

Ever witness me claiming to others to "Earn" the gift of grace, salvation? The topic on perseverance is a "contentious one" yet thoroughly biblical @Eternally-Grateful

Romans 2:4- Greek: ἀνοχή
 "Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience..."
 (ἀνοχή = forbearance, a divine quality of restraining judgment)

Romans 5:3 - Greek: ὑπομονή
 "...but we also celebrate in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance..."
 (ὑπομονή = endurance, steadfastness under pressure)

1 Corinthians 13:4 - Greek: μακροθυμία
 "Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous..."
 (μακροθυμία = longsuffering, slow to anger)

2 Corinthians 6:6 - Greek: μακροθυμία
 "...in purity, in knowledge, in patience, in kindness..."
 (μακροθυμία = longsuffering, spiritual patience in trials)

2 Corinthians 12:12 -Greek: ὑπομονή
 "The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance..."
 (ὑπομονή = enduring hardship as proof of apostleship)

Galatians 5:22 - Greek: μακροθυμία
 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience..."
 (μακροθυμία = a Spirit-produced quality of patience and forbearance)

Ephesians 4:2- Greek: μακροθυμία
 "...with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love..."
 (μακροθυμία = practical, relational patience in community)

Colossians 1:11 - Greek: ὑπομονή, μακροθυμία
 "...strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all perseverance and patience..."
 (ὑπομονή = endurance toward circumstances; μακροθυμία = patience toward people)

Colossians 3:12- Greek: μακροθυμία
 "...put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience..."
 (μακροθυμία = the attitude of longsuffering commanded of believers)

1 Thessalonians 1:3- Greek: ὑπομονή
 "...constantly keeping in mind your work of faith and labor of love and perseverance of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ..."
 (ὑπομονή = endurance springing from hope)


Define a list of Greek synonyms for "endurance"
greek_synonyms
"ὑπομονή": "endurance, steadfastness",
"μακροθυμία": "longsuffering, patience",
"καρτερία": "perseverance",
"ἀνεξικακία": "forbearance",
"ἀνοχή": "tolerance, forbearance"


Sample verses from Pauline Epistles where these words might appear (for demonstration)
pauline_epistles
"Romans": ["5:3", "2:4"],
"1 Corinthians": ["13:4"],
"2 Corinthians": ["6:6", "12:12"],
"Galatians": ["5:22"],
"Ephesians": ["4:2"],
"Colossians": ["1:11", "3:12"],
"1 Thessalonians": ["1:3"],
"2 Thessalonians": ["1:4"],
"2 Timothy": ["3:10"]


Construct a list of tuples combining the references with the Greek term expected
verses_with_synonyms
("Romans 2:4", "ἀνοχή"),
("Romans 5:3", "ὑπομονή"),
("1 Corinthians 13:4", "μακροθυμία"),
("2 Corinthians 6:6", "μακροθυμία"),
("2 Corinthians 12:12", "ὑπομονή"),
("Galatians 5:22", "μακροθυμία"),
("Ephesians 4:2", "μακροθυμία"),
("Colossians 1:11", "ὑπομονή, μακροθυμία"),
("Colossians 3:12", "μακροθυμία"),
("1 Thessalonians 1:3", "ὑπομονή"),
("2 Thessalonians 1:4", "ὑπομονή"),
("2 Timothy 3:10", "ὑπομονή")
]

verses_with_synonyms = verses_with_synonyms[:10]

verses_with_synonyms

[('Romans 2:4', 'ἀνοχή'),
('Romans 5:3', 'ὑπομονή'),
('1 Corinthians 13:4', 'μακροθυμία'),
('2 Corinthians 6:6', 'μακροθυμία'),
('2 Corinthians 12:12', 'ὑπομονή'),
('Galatians 5:22', 'μακροθυμία'),
('Ephesians 4:2', 'μακροθυμία'),
('Colossians 1:11', 'ὑπομονή, μακροθυμία'),
('Colossians 3:12', 'μακροθυμία'),
('1 Thessalonians 1:3', 'ὑπομονή')]


Would you agree?

J.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Good, we agree on this.

Ever witness me claiming to others to "Earn" the gift of grace, salvation? The topic on perseverance is a "contentious one" yet thoroughly biblical @Eternally-Grateful

Romans 2:4- Greek: ἀνοχή
 "Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience..."
 (ἀνοχή = forbearance, a divine quality of restraining judgment)

Romans 5:3 - Greek: ὑπομονή
 "...but we also celebrate in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance..."
 (ὑπομονή = endurance, steadfastness under pressure)

1 Corinthians 13:4 - Greek: μακροθυμία
 "Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous..."
 (μακροθυμία = longsuffering, slow to anger)

2 Corinthians 6:6 - Greek: μακροθυμία
 "...in purity, in knowledge, in patience, in kindness..."
 (μακροθυμία = longsuffering, spiritual patience in trials)

2 Corinthians 12:12 -Greek: ὑπομονή
 "The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance..."
 (ὑπομονή = enduring hardship as proof of apostleship)

Galatians 5:22 - Greek: μακροθυμία
 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience..."
 (μακροθυμία = a Spirit-produced quality of patience and forbearance)

Ephesians 4:2- Greek: μακροθυμία
 "...with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love..."
 (μακροθυμία = practical, relational patience in community)

Colossians 1:11 - Greek: ὑπομονή, μακροθυμία
 "...strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all perseverance and patience..."
 (ὑπομονή = endurance toward circumstances; μακροθυμία = patience toward people)

Colossians 3:12- Greek: μακροθυμία
 "...put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience..."
 (μακροθυμία = the attitude of longsuffering commanded of believers)

1 Thessalonians 1:3- Greek: ὑπομονή
 "...constantly keeping in mind your work of faith and labor of love and perseverance of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ..."
 (ὑπομονή = endurance springing from hope)


Define a list of Greek synonyms for "endurance"
greek_synonyms
"ὑπομονή": "endurance, steadfastness",
"μακροθυμία": "longsuffering, patience",
"καρτερία": "perseverance",
"ἀνεξικακία": "forbearance",
"ἀνοχή": "tolerance, forbearance"


Sample verses from Pauline Epistles where these words might appear (for demonstration)
pauline_epistles
"Romans": ["5:3", "2:4"],
"1 Corinthians": ["13:4"],
"2 Corinthians": ["6:6", "12:12"],
"Galatians": ["5:22"],
"Ephesians": ["4:2"],
"Colossians": ["1:11", "3:12"],
"1 Thessalonians": ["1:3"],
"2 Thessalonians": ["1:4"],
"2 Timothy": ["3:10"]


Construct a list of tuples combining the references with the Greek term expected
verses_with_synonyms
("Romans 2:4", "ἀνοχή"),
("Romans 5:3", "ὑπομονή"),
("1 Corinthians 13:4", "μακροθυμία"),
("2 Corinthians 6:6", "μακροθυμία"),
("2 Corinthians 12:12", "ὑπομονή"),
("Galatians 5:22", "μακροθυμία"),
("Ephesians 4:2", "μακροθυμία"),
("Colossians 1:11", "ὑπομονή, μακροθυμία"),
("Colossians 3:12", "μακροθυμία"),
("1 Thessalonians 1:3", "ὑπομονή"),
("2 Thessalonians 1:4", "ὑπομονή"),
("2 Timothy 3:10", "ὑπομονή")
]

verses_with_synonyms = verses_with_synonyms[:10]

verses_with_synonyms

[('Romans 2:4', 'ἀνοχή'),
('Romans 5:3', 'ὑπομονή'),
('1 Corinthians 13:4', 'μακροθυμία'),
('2 Corinthians 6:6', 'μακροθυμία'),
('2 Corinthians 12:12', 'ὑπομονή'),
('Galatians 5:22', 'μακροθυμία'),
('Ephesians 4:2', 'μακροθυμία'),
('Colossians 1:11', 'ὑπομονή, μακροθυμία'),
('Colossians 3:12', 'μακροθυμία'),
('1 Thessalonians 1:3', 'ὑπομονή')]


Would you agree?

J.

Brother

You can post a million verses

If you or anyone else tells me I must persevere in all things to remain saved. None of these verses will help you.

If your not saying this, then these verses are not needed because we agree

 

[Foster]

@Eternally-Grateful
Look brother, I appreciate you "waltzing" in here

J.

I think E. G. was doing more like The Tango. And you know what they say "It takes two to Tango"

 

[Johann]

I think E. G. was doing more like The Tango. Ang you know what they say "It takes two to Tango"

He is OK-we have our intense moments of fellowship but I do consider him a brother in Christ Jesus.

J.

 

[JLB]

I do agree with the "Believe part"... in the finished work of Jesus.

And I believe this​

8. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9, not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph. 2:8-9

Amen. I agree.

Ok.

Moving on to principle #2


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Principle # 1 -

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Principle 1 teaches us that believe = saved.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Principle 2 is much the same and teaches us those who believe for awhile are saved for awhile.

Since the condition for being saved is to believe, once that condition is no longer in place, then salvation is no longer in place.


Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while


Believing that endures to the end = a salvation that endures to the end.

But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21

Please don't tag me.

J.

Ok. Sorry.

 

[Foster]

Amen. I agree.

Ok.

Moving on to principle #2


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Principle # 1 -

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Principle 1 teaches us that believe = saved.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Principle 2 is much the same and teaches us those who believe for awhile are saved for awhile.

Since the condition for being saved is to believe, once that condition is no longer in place, then salvation is no longer in place.


Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while

Believing that endures to the end = a salvation that endures to the end.

But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21

Ok. Sorry.

Some believe intellectually, even the demons do that. The are like the ones that come to Jesus BUT... 21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

They were never saved.