What is the difference between eternal security, once saved always saved, and perseverance of the saints?

[praise_yeshua]

And your point is ...........................................

Please say who was right. It will work better if you do.
Paul was right. Luke is a historian. He didn't choose sides. He simply reported facts. We need to recognize the mistakes good men made. It will make us better men.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Far from it. Most of my sin is willful. I know better. However, there are things I don't know.

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Has this ever happened? If not, then when will it happen?

when Christ returns?

So you're lost right now? You're bear false witness about how we live for Christ right now. Yet, I don't condemn you. You're not my servant.

Ah, so you are my judge..lol

Dude, I am not lost. I was found 40 years ago. I may have not always been the greatest follower of God. but I certainly am not the worst. and as paul I keep marching forward.

The issue of salvation was handled when Christ conquered sin. What matters now is the fullness faith in trusting Christ. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

He conquered the penalty of sin first.

sin has no power over me because it can not condemn me

As for trusting Christ, again I did that 40 years ago when I was born again, and became a babe in Christ. i am still growing.

There are "laws" that exist by nature among Christians.... NOW.... like it once did upon lawless Gentiles.

there is two laws which Guide us

1. Love the lord your God with all your heart mind and soul

2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

Who is your neighbor. any person you come in contact with

fulfill these two commands fulfills all the law and prophets

sin is when we fail at one of these two commands..

 

[GodsGrace]

My assumption is YOU already well know what i am about to type . But please bear with it anyway .
Have you noticed a massive difference in how todays judge not correct nots
Approach sin within the church , VERSES HOW the APOSTELS DID .
cause i sure do . the judge not correct nots GIVE this people a FALSE SENSE of security while IN SIN

If you followed along my discussion with @mailmandan this is exactly the point I was trying to make.
I'm sure that he and others on here that will debate works are good people and doing their best.
It seems they don't understand that there are some that just need an excuse to return to a sinful life-style...
and those that teach that one is saved no matter what are encouraging that behavior..

Which God does not accept.

Rather than REBUKING THOSE IN SIN . and that led to leaven taking over places and now even to the acceptance of sins .
LET it not once be named among you , has become HEY DONT JUDGE WE ALL SIN
Those who sin rebuke before all that others may fear , has today become THOSE WHO correct those in sin REBUKE BEFORE ALL
cause they dont know love or GOD .
DO you see the problem . WHEN leaven is left uncorrected , IT BRINGS BUDDIES , IT WILL LEAVEN the lump .
That is why the devil came in with a seducing version of judge not correct not . Cause he knows leaven will leaven .

I believe we all sin...we ask forgiveness, are sorry and move on.
But some don't even think asking forgiveness is necessary!
They believe all their sins have been taken care of...past, present and future so no need
to ask forgiveness and John clearly taught.
What a mess...we should be more united in our doctrine.

 

[praise_yeshua]

when Christ returns?

Correct. If it only takes place at the Resurrection, then we should stop demanding it NOW.

Ah, so you are my judge..lol

Only your words. Feel free to judge mine. I expect God to have mercy upon me because He promised HE WOULD. That is faith. Not the complete absence of "missing the mark".

I don't hold have any animosity toward you. I have told everyone here before, that I have a very low threshold for mercy and forgiveness. I don't want anyone to face the judgment of willfully rejecting Christ.

Dude, I am not lost. I was found 40 years ago. I may have not always been the greatest follower of God. but I certainly am not the worst. and as paul I keep marching forward.

We mostly agree. There are details that differ.

He conquered the penalty of sin first.

The penalty of sin was judged in the death of Jesus Christ.

sin has no power over me because it can not condemn me

He is greater than our sin.

there is two laws which Guide us

1. Love the lord your God with all your heart mind and soul

2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

Typical. Stop for a minute and realize that Jesus is the only ONE that has ever done this. Our mind is corrupted. Our minds are scared. There are many people so scared by sin that they are incapable of living a life free completely from the propensity to sin. What we learn scares us deeply. Christ is the remedy for this but our flesh is scared. Wounds that the Resurrection will heal.

Who is your neighbor. any person you come in contact with

fulfill these two commands fulfills all the law and prophets

sin is when we fail at one of these two commands..

If these are requirements for repentance, then who can do such a things?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If you followed along my discussion with @mailmandan this is exactly the point I was trying to make.
I'm sure that he and others on here that will debate works are good people and doing their best.
It seems they don't understand that there are some that just need an excuse to return to a sinful life-style...
and those that teach that one is saved no matter what are encouraging that behavior..

Since when is saying someone can not return to live in sin, mean they are trying to excuse these people (who do not exist) from doing it?

John did not stuter, he made it clear. whoever lives in habitual sin has never seen or known God. whoever is born of God can not do it.

Which God does not accept.

Yes. he will not accept self righteousness

I believe we all sin...we ask forgiveness, are sorry and move on.
But some don't even think asking forgiveness is necessary!
They believe all their sins have been taken care of...past, present and future so no need
to ask forgiveness and John clearly taught.
What a mess...we should be more united in our doctrine.

I confess my sins, I do not mock God and ask forgiveness. How many times do you ask your father to forgive you before you start to sound like a broken record. Your father loves you. He just wants you to acknowledge your sin and move on.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I appreciate your response- Are there any links or websites you would recommend for further reading? Or studying?
You are straightforward and I like that.

J.

I wish I could tell you there were. I don't know of them. This is my belief. I've started to write about it over the years and haven't. I tell myself I'm not ready but at times I believe my choices in a career had hindered me. The struggles have helped me but it has hindered me as well.

There are circumstances where we just must say "I don't know, but I do know His character". If we wouldn't do it having experienced the Grace of God ourselves, why would God do it? I believe "Begging" helps.

Tell you a short personal story......

I had a motorcycle wreck many years ago while I was riding with a young women that is now my wife. She was hurt very badly. I was taken to local hospital in the mountains of Virginia while she was flown to level 1 trauma unit. While I laying in that hospital waiting to be treated, I asked the Lord Jesus to fix what I had broken. To fix what was impossible for me to fix myself.

He did........

I had peace I couldn't explain. I can't explain it now but I've had it throughout my life in critical times of need and helplessness. I didn't deserve it. I didn't earn it. I had no right to even ask..... He's NOT far from us all brother. We ignore that our fellowman, as wrong as they are at times, are our brothers. All of them.

Asking God to chose between us is something I refuse to do.

What God has done for others, He will do for YOU.

Just think of how wonderful it is for God to do what we can't do..... just because we ask Him. That's enough to stop judging humanity in their sin.

 

[ProDeo]

A person can "live in sin" there entire life and not realize what I just said is true.

Yep, but if a person becomes born again, he/she knows (becomes are of) sin, the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit, John 16:8-11

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Correct. If it only takes place at the Resurrection, then we should stop demanding it NOW.

who is demanding it?

Only your words. Feel free to judge mine. I expect God to have mercy upon me because He promised HE WOULD. That is faith. Not the complete absence of "missing the mark".

what??????

I don't hold have any animosity toward you. I have told everyone here before, that I have a very low threshold for mercy and forgiveness. I don't want anyone to face the judgment of willfully rejecting Christ.

Well good. Because I have not willfully sinned (rejected Christ) Nor am I trying to earn Gods forgiveness by doing good deeds. I work because he first loved me, I do it out of gratitude. not expecting anything in return

We mostly agree. There are details that differ.

The penalty of sin was judged in the death of Jesus Christ.

yes

He is greater than our sin.

yes

Typical. Stop for a minute and realize that Jesus is the only ONE that has ever done this. Our mind is corrupted. Our minds are scared. There are many people so scared by sin that they are incapable of living a life free completely from the propensity to sin. What we learn scares us deeply. Christ is the remedy for this but our flesh is scared. Wounds that the Resurrection will heal.

Jesus said he has not given us a spirit of fear. but of a sound mind, and we can come to him as our Daddy (abba) and his Yoke is light.

the people who fear are those who have no assurance, because they have yet to trust Jesus

If these are requirements for repentance, then who can do such a things?

No, we do them because we have repented. and been saved.

again, we love (obey these two commands) because he first loved us, and saved us.. and adopted us as his kids.

 

[GodsGrace]

natures do not sin, people sin by a willful act/choice. I can't blame my sin on a nature but only on my personal choice to sin. Sin begins in ones thoughts, then it goes from the mind to the heart, then one acts upon what they have been dwelling on and the heart desires. You can follow this trail with the act of murder and trace it back to ones thoughts. Its the same with any other act of sin.

I like to say garbage in, garbage out. What are we feeding out thought lives with. What we dwell on is what we end up doing and acting out in our lives. The mind is the battlefield that influences everything we say, think and do on a daily basis. I have several threads on the forum about this very topic.

The Spirit and the Mind. A check up from the neck up! The Mind is a Battlefield.

Battlefield means the field or ground upon which a battle is fought. 2. and area of contention, conflict, or hostile opposition.” A battlefield is a place of hostile opposition. A battlefield is a place where battles are won and lost. Everyday – every moment – there is a battle going on in our minds between right and wrong, good and bad, God’s way or Satan’s way, the Spirit or the flesh. It is our wills that determine who wins control of our minds, and because actions follow thoughts, ultimately who wins control of our very lives

The enemy attacked Eve in her mind/reasoning and tried the same with Jesus. He tried to cause doubt with Gods word and succeeded with Eve (did God really say? And you will not surely die) and he failed with Jesus. He attacks us today in the same way. The sword of the spirit which is the word of God is our only offensive weapon and defense against our enemy. Jesus did not use Hid Divine power as God to defeat satan, He used the same means we have at our disposal to defeat the enemy- the Word of God!

1-We must know Gods Word- Jesus used Gods word against the enemy.

2-We must memorize Gods Word. Ps 119:11, Ps 37:31, Ps 40:8

3- We must meditate on Gods Word- Joshua 1:8, Ps 1:2, Ps 119:147-48

4- We must use Gods Word- John 14:26. It is written was Jesus’ response. Matt 4:1-11

5- We must train ourselves in Gods Word- discipline, training, practice. 1 Tim 4:7, 1 Cor 9:25-27, 2 Tim 2:1-7.

Sow a thought and you reap an action; sow an act and you reap a habit; sow a habit and you reap a character; sow a character and you reap a destiny.” Our destiny is tied directly to and starts with our thoughts.

Romans 8:5-14-Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

Hi Civic
We're not talking about the general nature of man here.
Man is born with a tendency toward sin...don't let the doctrine of total depravity become dominant in this discussion.
This is the reason we need to be born again from above.
One time physically, and at this time we are NOT born again and do have a sinful nature.
and one time spiritually.

When we are born again, we maintain this sinful nature but it comes under the control of the Holy Spirit.

This is taught in the bible and not to be confused with whether or not infants are guilty of sin.
Two totally different discussions.

Some call the sinful nature, sin nature, concupiscense, the flesh.....they all mean the same.

Let me ask you this:
What makes us sin?
Of course it starts in the heart...
but why?

Of course it could start in our mind...
but why?

Because man tends toward sin before his is indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
This tendency is called the sin nature (or whatever you want to call it).

You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.

This is AFTER we become born again.
We stop walking in THE FLESH (here Paul calls it THE FLESH) and we walk in the Spirit.

And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God

I underlined and highlighted the above for your consideration.
It confirms my statements above.

Colossians 3:1-10- Therefore, if you have been raised with Christ, keep seeking the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on the things that are above, not on the things that are on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.5 Therefore, treat the parts of your earthly body as dead to sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. 6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them. 8 But now you also, rid yourselves of all of them: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene speech from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you stripped off the old self with its evil practices, 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created it

1 Peter 1:13-16 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.

Galatians 5:16-18- So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

1 Corinthians 2:9-16- However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”

But we have the mind of Christ.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Romans 12:1-2-Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Ephesians 4:17-25-Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. 20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires,23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Philippians 2:1-5 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

Philippians 4:8-Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, let your mind dwell on these things.

Proverbs 4:23- Be careful how you think; your life is shaped by your thoughts.

Proverbs 23:7- As a man thinks in his heart so is he. Cf Deut 4:9, Proverbs 4. Col 3:23, Prov 22:29


hope this helps !!!

Correct...and it all goes to being born again.

See here the term: Some bibles have SINFUL NATURE...some bibles have THE FLESH (same thing).

Romans 7:18-25
18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.
20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;
23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

continued:



It’s a Matter of the Heart, what consumes your heart?


1-As a man thinks in his heart so is he – Proverbs 23:7

2-A man speaks from what fills his heart- Luke 6:45. Where your treasure is there you heart will be also. Matthew 6:21

3-Jesus said to the church in Ephesus: I have this against you- you have left your first love, therefor remember from where you have fallen, repent and do the things you did at first- Revelations 2:4-5- “Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem: “This is what the LORD says: “’I remember the devotion of your youth, how as a bride you loved me and followed me through the wilderness, through a land not sown. Jeremiah 2:2

4-What was it like when you first came to Christ and experienced His love? Remember what it was like when you pursued your first love or the one you married? How much time did you spend together? Asking questions getting to know each other better? Finding out what she liked, disliked, pleased her, made her happy, the things you did together, etc…… Those are the same types of things in our relationship with Jesus we should consider. That 1st love , seeking to spend time with our Lord getting to know Him through His word, prayer, fellowship, growing in our relationship with Him.

5- The hearts condition: The heart is desperately wicked who can understand it. Jeremiah 17:9. the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight Proverbs 3:5-6. Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. Romans 12:1-2. Galatians 5:17. How can a young man keep his way pure? By keeping it according to Your word.10 With all my heart I have sought You; Do not let me wander from Your commandments.11 Your word I have treasured in my heart, That I may not sin against You. Psalm 119:9-11

Bible Dictionaries - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Heart



Heart

"Heart" (Hebrew lebab/leb [b'bel], Gk. kardia [kardiva]) occurs over one thousand times in the Bible, making it the most common anthropological term in the Scripture. It denotes a person's center for both physical and emotional-intellectual-moral activities; sometimes it is used figuratively for any inaccessible thing.

The Heart as Center of Physical Activity. "Heart" denotes to both ancient and modern peoples the beating chest organ protected by the rib cage. Ancient people, however, understood the heart's physical function differently than moderns. From their viewpoint the heart was the central organ that moved the rest of the body. Ancients ate to strengthen the heart and so revive the body. Abraham offers his weary guests food so that they might "sustain their hearts" and then go on their way ( Gen 18:5 ). Since moderns understand the anatomy differently than the ancients, the English versions gloss the Hebrew to accommodate it to a more scientific viewpoint.

A Figure of Inaccessibility. The hiddenness and inaccessibility of the physical heart give rise to its figurative sense for anything that is remote and inaccessible. The "heart of the seas" ( Jonah 2:3 ) refers to the sea's fathomless, unapproachable depths and the "heart of the heavens" is its most unreachable height.

The Heart as Center of Hidden Emotional-Intellectual-Moral Activity. "Man looks at the outward appearance, " says Samuel, "but the lord looks at the heart" ( 1 Sam 16:7 ). The king's heart is unsearchable to humankind ( Prov 25:3 ), but the Lord searches all hearts to reward all according to their conduct ( Jer 17:10 ). In the time of judgment God will expose the hidden counsels of the heart ( 1 Cor 4:5 ).

Jesus says that the heart's secrets are betrayed by the mouth, even as a tree's fruit discloses its nature ( Matt 12:33-34 ). "A wise man's heart guides his mouth, " says Solomon ( Prov 16:23 ). Most important, the mouth confesses what the heart trusts ( Rom 10:9 ; cf. Deut 30:14 ).

Moderns connect some of the heart's emotional-intellectual-moral functions with the brain and glands, but its functions are not precisely equivalent for three reasons.

First, moderns do not normally associate the brain/mind with both rational and nonrational activities, yet the ancients did not divorce them ( Psalm 20:4 ).

Second, the heart's reasoning, as well as its feeling, depends on its moral condition.

Right.
By the heart we really mean the soul, of course.
And yes, the heart's reasoning depends on its moral condition.

This is why when we become born again, we receive the Holy Spirit and this certainly has an affect on our soul.

Romans 6:16
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?


Before salvation we present ourselves to satan BECAUSE of the tendency toward sin...
After salvation we present ourselves to God and the sin nature is suppressed by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said that "from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts" ( Mark 7:21 ). Because the human heart is deceitful above all things ( Jer 17:9 ) and folly is found up in the heart of a child ( Prov 22:15 ), the Spirit of God must give humans a new heart ( Jer 31:33 ; Ezek 36:26 ) through faith that purifies it ( Acts 15:9 ; cf. Eph 3:17 ).

Third, moderns distinguish between the brain's thoughts and a person's actions, but the distinction between thought and action is inappropriate for heart. "The word is very near you, " says Moses to a regenerated Israel, "in your mouth and in your heart" ( Deut 30:14 ).

The Heart's Emotional Functions. The Lord, who knows our hearts ( Luke 16:15 ), experiences its full range of emotions: for example, its joy ( Deut 28:47 ; 1 Sam 2:1 ; Prov 15:15 ) and its sorrow ( 1 Sam 1:8 ); its raging ( 2 Kings 6:11 ) and its peace ( Col 3:15 ); its feeling troubled ( John 14:1 ) and its rejoicing ( 1 Sam 2:1 ; Psalm 104:15 ); its love ( Rom 5:5 ; 1 Peter 1:22 ) and its selfish ambition ( James 3:14 ); its modes of doubts ( Mark 11:23 ) and of fear ( Gen 42:28 ) and its mode of trusting ( Prov 3:5 ); when it rises up in repulsive pride ( Deut 8:14 ) or, as in the case of Jesus, is lowly and humble ( Matt 11:29 ); and when one loses heart ( Heb 12:3 ) or takes heart ( John 16:33 ).

The emotional state of the heart affects the rest of a person: "A happy heart makes the face cheerful, but heartache crushes the spirit" ( Prov 15:13 ); "a cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones" ( 17:22 ).

The heart also wishes, desires. The father warns his son against coveting the adulteress's beauty ( Prov 6:25 ) and against envying sinners in his heart ( Prov 23:17 ). Above all else the heart of a saint seeks God ( Psalms 119:2 Psalms 119:10 ). Believers set it on things above ( Col 3:1 ). This is effected, says Jesus, by putting your treasures in heaven, for "where your treasure is, there your heart will be also" ( Matt 6:21 ). If we look for God with all our heart, Moses promises we will find him ( Deut 4:28-29 ).

The Heart's Intellectual-Spiritual Functions. The heart thinks ( Matt 9:4 ; Mark 2:8 ), remembers, reflects, and meditates ( Psalm 77:5-6 ; Luke 2:19 ). Solomon's comprehensive knowledge of flora and fauna is described as his breadth of heart ( 1 Kings 4:29 ).

More specifically, as the eyes were meant to see and the ears to hear, the heart is meant to understand, to discern, to give insight. The Alexandrian Jewish scribes translated into Greek about 200 b.c. the Hebrew text of Proverbs 2:10, "wisdom will enter your heart" by "wisdom will come into your understanding (dianoian [diavnoia])" because to them it meant the same thing. When a person lacks insight the Hebrew speaks of a "lack of heart."

Understanding cannot be separated from morals. Isaiah was commissioned: "Make the heart of this people calloused; otherwise they might understand with their hearts" ( Isa 6:10 ). Pharaoh hardened his heart lest he hear Moses and gain insight about the Lord ( Exod 8:15 ), and the Lord hardened it irrevocably ( 7:13 ; 9:12 ). Paul says of the perverse, their foolish hearts were darkened ( Rom 1:21 ); they could not see the light of moral truth. The hearts of saints, however, are enlightened ( 2 Col 4:6 ; Eph 1:18 ).

Moderns speak of learning by heart, by which they mean rote memory. In the Bible, however, learning by heart is not like memorizing the multiplication tables; it must be mixed with spiritual affections. The Lord complains of apostate Israel that their worship "is made up only of rules taught by men" but "their hearts are far from me" ( Isa 29:13 ).

continued :

As the mouth reveals what is the heart, the ear determines what goes into it. The father tells his son to "store up my commands within you"; he then adds: by "turning your ear to wisdom, and you will incline your heart to understanding" ( Prov 2:2 ). When Moses says, "these commandments are to be upon your hearts" ( Deut 6:6 ), he commands his hearers to remain conscious of them. This idea is expressed by the metaphor of writing on the tablet of the heart ( Prov 3:3 ; Jer 17:1 ). In short, the heart needs to be educated by filling it with God's word ( Prov 22:17-18 ). In that way a person will grow in favor and good name ( 3:3-4 ) and be safeguarded against sin ( Psalm 119:11 ).

The heart functions as the conscience. After David showed insubordination against the anointed king by cutting off the corner of his robe, his heart smote him ( 1 Sam 24:5 ), and after Peter's sermon the audience was "cut to the heart" ( Acts 2:37 ). The heart may condemn us, but God is greater than our hearts ( 1 John 3:20 ). David prays that God would create for him a pure heart to replace his defiled conscience ( Psalm 51:10 ).

Finally, the heart plans, makes commitments, and decides. It is the inner forum where decisions are made after deliberation; here a person engages in self-talk. "In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps" ( Prov 16:9 ). Because of this critical function, the father instructs the son: "Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life ( 4:23 ). The Lord detests "a heart that devises wicked schemes" ( 6:18 ).

The greatest commandment according to Jesus is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart" ( Matt 22:37 ). Love here is more than emotion; it is a conscious commitment to the Lord.

One speaks to the heart of another to move that person to a decision ( Isa 40:2 ; Hosea 2:14 ). The father asks the son for his heart ( Prov 23:26 ), by which he means that the son make a conscious decision to follow his instructions. The impenitent, however, have hearts that are insensitive, obstinate ( Mark 3:5 ; 6:52 ), and hard ( Matt 19:8 ); they cannot be moved in a new direction.

hope this helps !!!

Right. Our heart moves us....according to whether or not we're saved.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yep, but if a person becomes born again, he/she knows (becomes are of) sin, the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit, John 16:8-11

So babies in Christ KNOW enough to completely stop sinning?

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Babies have to be taken care of. I've meet 80 year old babies in Christ who have been that way for 70 years or more.

Condemn them....... NEVER. They are children nonetheless. As long as they are expressing faith in God's forgiveness, no one has any right to say they are otherwise.

This "theoretical" theology you all have is just that.... a "theory" that is never meet with reality. Look at yourselves.

 

[praise_yeshua]

who is demanding it?

You are.

what??????

what?????

Well good. Because I have not willfully sinned (rejected Christ) Nor am I trying to earn Gods forgiveness by doing good deeds. I work because he first loved me, I do it out of gratitude. not expecting anything in return

Nonsense. You expect heaven in return. Don't pretend otherwise. You'll find your claims above will be challenged. I would never say what you said above. I've learned better. You need a new translation. You don't understand "Willful sin" in Hebrews 11:26

Jesus said he has not given us a spirit of fear. but of a sound mind, and we can come to him as our Daddy (abba) and his Yoke is light.

Then why do you fear? Don't tell me you're not fearful. Sure, you might be fearful of certain things but you're not walking on water.

the people who fear are those who have no assurance, because they have yet to trust Jesus

Yeah. Keep ignoring your own fear.

No, we do them because we have repented. and been saved.

Do tell what repentance means to you. Everyone seems to believe repentance is just you "changing your mind". Well.... God has to change His mind too. It is called a relationship. You can claim you've changed your mind all you want. God is witness of such when you actually come to agree with one another.

again, we love (obey these two commands) because he first loved us, and saved us.. and adopted us as his kids.

You don't love God with all your heart, body and soul. You dishonor the only Person who has. Jesus Christ. You certainly don't love your enemies like you love yourself. Christ does.

 

[ProDeo]

So babies in Christ KNOW enough to completely stop sinning?

They become aware of sin through the Holy Spirit, the awareness that did not exists before being born again. Awareness of sin becomes the starting point, the first step to stop, a life time process.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Like Paul states, Babes in Christ.

Babies have to be taken care of. I've meet 80 year old babies in Christ who have been that way for 70 years or more.

Condemn them....... NEVER. They are children nonetheless. As long as they are expressing faith in God's forgiveness, no one has any right to say they are otherwise.

This "theoretical" theology you all have is just that.... a "theory" that is never meet with reality. Look at yourselves.

Agree, no condemnation.

 

[MTMattie]

Not according to Stanley and many many others who teach the false idea.
Stanley says one can throw away his faith and still be saved while other says if one loses his faith heve never really had faith. An OBVIOUS CONTRADICTION contained with the false teaching os OSAS, ES,POTS for a person cannot be at the same time "saved anyway" and 'never really saved"

If OSAS.ES.POTS were true then the could be no thing as an apostate. Apostate from the Greek:

Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- Apostasy, rebellion, defection, falling away

defection, apostasy, revolt.
It implies a deliberate abandonment of faith or a turning away from previously held beliefs.
apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

apo = move away from....stasia = from a previous standing. Hence an apostate was a person in a saved state but how now moved from that previous saved state to a lost one. The word 'fall' means to change location...fall from a tree to the ground..fall from a saved position to a lost position. An always lost fallen person cannot fall, is not an apostate for fall and apostate mean change of position and one does not fall from a lost state to a lost state but from a saved state to a lost state.

those in Thessalonia tho't Christ's return was imminent yet Paul told them;
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,.." yet according to OSA,ES,POTS 'falling away' is impossible hence Christ will never return



the issue is about those who are Christians and become apostates.

Stanley says the Christian can never lose salvation, he can throw away their faith and still be saved....in that salvation is permanent and cannot be lost under ANY circumstance.
Other Baptist preachers say:
Sam Morris, First Baptist Church, Stamford Texas, Do a Christian’s Sins Damn His Soul?: “We take the position that a Christian’s sins do not damn his soul. The way a Christian lives, what he says, his character, his conduct, or his attitude toward other people have nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul . . . All the prayers a man may pray, all the Bibles he may read, all the churches he may belong to, all the services he may attend, all the debts he my pay, all the ordinances he may observe, all the laws he may keep, all the benevolent acts he may perform will not make his soul one whit safer; and all the sins he may commit from idolatry to murder will not make his soul in any more danger . . . The way a man lives has nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul . . . The way I live has nothing whatsoever to do with the salvation of my soul.”

Hoyt Chastain was a Missionary Baptist preacher who defended, in public debate, the idea that a child of God cannot fall from grace. In one debate Chastain affirmed that he could abandon his wife and children, move in with a sixteen-year-old girl, and the Lord would take the situation and “work it out for his good.”

Baptist preacher, 54-year-old J. L. Pettit, seduced a fourteen-year-old girl. He was arrested and brought to trial. The girl swore on the witness stand that the minister told her their sexual activity was merely a “matter of the flesh,” and it would not “bother the soul.”

Bill Foster, Baptist preacher in Louisville, KY commented: "If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women, I couldn't go to hell -- in fact, I couldn't go to hell if I wanted to. If on the judgment day, I should find that my loved ones are lost and should lose all desire to be saved, and should beg God to send me to hell with them, He couldn't do it" (The Weekly Worker, March 12, 1959).

If salvation were truly UNCONDITIONAL and can never be lost then what the above "preachers" says would be 100% correct. Yet for one to murder his wife and mother, rape women, molest young children and yet still be saved sounds awful to some hence they claim those that do such things were "never really saved".

Hence there is the contention claiming they will be "saved anyway"

I had an old boss who said that.

using 1 Cor 3:15 as "proof text" and the other contention claiming they were "never really saved" using 1 Jn 2:19 as "proof text". So there is an obvious mutually exclusive contradiction among these two contentions. In reality neither 1 Cor 3:15 or 1 Jn 2:19 even remotely teach the idea of OSAS,ES,POTS and hence the contradiction exist over the false idea of OSAS.

These two contentions must come together and find agreement for as it stands, the contentions prove OSAS,ES,POTS is wrong, unbiblical.



no one will be saved apart from obeying God's will....no obedience = no salvation, Hen 5:9; 2 Thess 1:8

a test for you:

you say a true born again Christian will be never fall away.

Are you spirit filled? What has been your experience when you have sinned . Never got that solid conviction within yourself? Sorry. it should not be missed by any brother or sister.

---the Christian will never fall away even if he turns to live and die in homosexuality? Yes? No?

When the Heavenly Father calls a man with another man or a woman giving up the natural use of het body an abomination a true born again knows this and will stand firm. So no he wont consciously fall away

---or does his becoming a homosexual proves he was 'never really saved'?

If you followed certain preachers from the pulpit that say the gay is saved, ???? I say never really saved. No.

If you answer 'yes' here then you are saying the Christian must live a perfect sinless life for if the Christian sins his sinning proves he was never really saved? Yes? No?

What does God say. A marriage is between a man and a woman. So gays at best are well into fornication and sexual weirdness. What does God say...1 Cor 6:9-10 say

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

That pretty well says THOU SHALT NOT

---if you claim a Christian can sin and still be saved, then why can't the Christian sin by being a homosexual and still be saved?

Because they wont give up the sex.

True resentence is hard on every sin... but what's the longest you have gone???? NO... Not expecting an answer.

 

[GodsGrace]

Since when is saying someone can not return to live in sin, mean they are trying to excuse these people (who do not exist) from doing it?

John did not stuter, he made it clear. whoever lives in habitual sin has never seen or known God. whoever is born of God can not do it.



Yes. he will not accept self righteousness

I confess my sins, I do not mock God and ask forgiveness. How many times do you ask your father to forgive you before you start to sound like a broken record. Your father loves you. He just wants you to acknowledge your sin and move on.

EG...I'm NOT talking about YOU.

These people exist even if you don't think they do.
I can't really debate this...it's OK if you think that some will go back to a life of sin because they're being taught
by some on these forums that a person can never lose their salvation because they walked down some isle a few years back
but now...gee...those sins are starting to look good again ---- and since salvation is forever....

You finish the sentence.

 

[mailmandan]

What does God say...1 Cor 6:9-10 say

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Folks who dismiss eternal security of the believer (the righteous) will typically create a second camp of Christians and place them into this category above with the unrighteous.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9 such folks overlook Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? This is discussing the unrighteous who  practice such sins, just as we see in Galatians 5:19-21. These folks also overlook verse 1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were (past tense) some of you: but ye are washed,  but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Paul is contrasting the unrighteous with the righteous.

 

[praise_yeshua]

They become aware of sin through the Holy Spirit, the awareness that did not exists before being born again. Awareness of sin becomes the starting point, the first step to stop, a life time process.

So how do BABIES understand the Holy Spirit?

Are you a father yourself? Do you understand that babies will have "bowel movements" on themselves that they can't clean up themselves? They don't even know they are hurting themselves. Do you punish a baby for pooping on themselves?

Don't repeat what you've heard to me. Don't repeat what you've been taught. Show yourself not to be a baby yourself.

It is no different. You do not receive perfect knowledge when you're "born again". Behaviorally, you actually change very little. Sure, you might go to church and pretend you're different but in reality, you're just beginning to EXPERIENCE life.

Nature mimic spiritual things. You don't learn instantly. YOU need experience. It takes time and it certainly takes listening to Holy Spirit instead of all the other voices that are competing for your attention.

The idea that babies know better is rather silly.

I often ask people if they obey the "5th" commandment.... I find it silly to think that anyone actually pays attention to what they read.....

Exo 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

I'd been stoned a long time ago. Even if I hadn't literally "cursed" them outloud, I certainly did it in my heart.....

I don't think I'm alone.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Folks who dismiss eternal security of the believer (the righteous) will typically create a second camp of Christians and place them into this category above with the unrighteous.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9 such folks overlook Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? This is discussing the unrighteous who  practice such sins, just as we see in Galatians 5:19-21. These folks also overlook verse 1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were (past tense) some of you: but ye are washed,  but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Paul is contrasting the unrighteous with the righteous.

I agree......

OR they create a little pretend "group" that are some "conquering kings" that never conquer anything.....

1Co 4:8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.

 

[ProDeo]

So how do BABIES understand the Holy Spirit?

I don't follow.

We were talking about Paul, him mentioning babes in Christ, not sweet smelling babies.

I'd been stoned a long time ago. Even if I hadn't literally "cursed" them outloud, I certainly did it in my heart.....

I am sorry to hear that.

God bless you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I don't follow.

We were talking about Paul, him mentioning babes in Christ, not sweet smelling babies.

Don't play dumb. I explained it well. Babies are babies. That is why the reference "works".....

Did you notice the "milk" part? Is there some other "milk of Christ" somewhere?

I am sorry to hear that.

God bless you.

So you pretend you're different..... Typical.

The law demanded your death. You should have been dead by now. Why not? Where is your guarantee of opportunity to be different?