praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You're obviously downplaying the LXX because it is a translation.
What is KJO ?
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Clifford
Active member
Let me rephrase that... when you've been a Christian long enough to have the whole Bible preach to you, or most of it anyway. And have read "word books" like commentaries and books by famous Pastors and the like. Plus read the Bible through in several different translations, Then I believe you have the word in your heart. At that point a poor translation isn't going to change your understanding of God's word because you know the word and the word hasset you free. You're not bound to a certain translation. Personally King James version gives me a headache. New King James I can deal with no problem. All the other translations I can read and I don't have a problem. In this day and age of the information highway Christian websites will give you all kinds of warnings about bad translations to stay away from.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
The Spirit of God is definitely our guide. Some are more sensitive than others.
There are some issues with modern translation. Of these, some of the issues revolve around the desire to avoid copyright claims. If it were not for "copyright" issues, we would probably have a much closer to the originals translation than we have today.
Clifford
Active member
I had no idea. Wow they've copyrighted the word of God, Who knew. As far as the spirit of God being our guide I can testify to that. I'm dyslexic And one of the ways it affects me is being able to memorize words, how to spell them and how to remember sentences they're in.
I was in a Street Outreach Ministry and they wanted us to learn memory verses like the Romans road and several other ones. First I thought is... Well I know how this is going to go, then it amazed me as I was able to memorize all the verses. We used them in our Street Ministry. I found years later that if I was witnessing to someone the verses from the Bible that that I needed at the moment would automatically come to mind.
Something always gets lost in any translation, some translations more than others, some translations more deliberately than others. The remedy to all this is asking someone who knows Koine Greek, preferably consulting the Majority Text, if you don't know Koine Greek yourself.
CC: @praise_yeshua
Clifford
Active member
Thank you for the info, Lost in the translation I think I've been there done that
Because you're "dyslexic", as you mentioned earlier? I'm not one to laugh at that. All the best, my friend.Thank you for the info, Lost in the translation I think I've been there done that
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I actually remember the KJV because it is what I have used most of my life. I always chasen my thoughts by consulting the manuscript evidence but I start with what I remember from the KJV. I'm critical of the KJV where it is needed. I prefer the manuscript tradition found in Codex Alexandrinus. Which is primarily Byzantine in the Gospels.
When I mentioned "copyright"... "copyright" issues come into play when large portions of translations are identical to one another. There isn't a "copyright" necessarily of the "word of God" but upon how it is expressed. For example, there is no copyright on the KJV. However, in England, the Monarchy still owns the rights and they allow Cambridge/etc to handle the reproduction of the KJV. In the US, even the NET Bible is copyrighted. Here is the link to the copyright.
Copyright - NET Bible
NET Bible Copyright NET BIble® Copyright THE NET BIBLE®, New English Translation (NET) Naming Convention: For verses quoted, in limited space situations the three letter abbreviation is: NET Alternately, the following may be used: NET Bible® NET Please avoid: New English Translation Bible or...
netbible.com
Absolutely. It is because you value the words. The Spirit of God helps us with what we value from God.
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Clifford
Active member
Thanks for the kind words of encouragement.I use actually remember the KJV because it is what I have used most of my life. I always chasen my thoughts by consulting the manuscript evidence but I start with what I remember from the KJV. I critical of the KJV where it is needed. I prefer the manuscript tradition found Codex Alexandrinus. Which is primarily Byzantine in the Gospels.
When I mentioned "copyright"... "copyright" issues come into play when large portions of translations are identical to one another. There isn't a "copyright" necessarily the "word of God" but upon how it is expressed. For example, there is no copyright on the KJV. However, in England, the Monarchy still owns the rights and they allow Cambridge/etc to handle the reproduction of the KJV. In the US, even the NET Bible is copyrighted. Here is the link to the copyright.
Copyright - NET Bible
NET Bible Copyright NET BIble® Copyright THE NET BIBLE®, New English Translation (NET) Naming Convention: For verses quoted, in limited space situations the three letter abbreviation is: NET Alternately, the following may be used: NET Bible® NET Please avoid: New English Translation Bible or...
Absolutely. It is because you value the words. The Spirit of God helps us with what we value from God.
Nadab
Member
In my home country Tanzania we speak Swahili and English so we can enjoy many translations. We've had the Bible in the Swahili translation for well over a hundred years. Here's John 3:16 in my native tongue.
"Kwa maana jinsi hii Mungu aliupenda ulimwengu, hata akamtoa Mwanawe pekee, ili kila mtu amwaminiye asipotee, bali awe na uzima wa milele."
That's from the union translation which is in Swahili. I prefer it because the words in Swahili mean so much more to me and they give me a word picture. I have no problem with the English translation of the Bible but I must admit King James is not my favorite.
"Kwa maana jinsi hii Mungu aliupenda ulimwengu, hata akamtoa Mwanawe pekee, ili kila mtu amwaminiye asipotee, bali awe na uzima wa milele."
That's from the union translation which is in Swahili. I prefer it because the words in Swahili mean so much more to me and they give me a word picture. I have no problem with the English translation of the Bible but I must admit King James is not my favorite.
I'm in a KJVO church, and I use the KJV. I just want to say if you read the KJV alot..the old English (which wasn't the common English at the time, but used to adhere closely to the Greek).. the thees and thous etc... become no issue.
Plus there are plenty of verses that are simple to read in it, that have no thees and thous etc ...
In saying this though...I am not KJV only myself. I think it's a very accurate translation..but not the reinspired word of God. The inspired Word is gone..in the original manuscripts.. but accurate translations have kept it.
I don't understand why KJVO people reject Bibles from the same Textus Receptus that the KJV uses. Eg NASB... NKJV etc..
They use the same source...why do they reject them?
The main argument for KJVO is the promise of God preserving His Word in all generations.
But I thought this was thru preservation in the mountains of manuscripts to translate from... not with one particular translation.
But yea .. my pastor is KJVO ..
But not for every language...his view is it is the preserved Word in English. So I think he believes other languages could have their own perfectly preserved translation.
This has been a struggle for me lately, as there is a church very very similar to the one I'm in now that is not KJVO , but I feel I'd be leaving the church I'm in now for the wrong reasons if I joined that one.
Plus there are plenty of verses that are simple to read in it, that have no thees and thous etc ...
In saying this though...I am not KJV only myself. I think it's a very accurate translation..but not the reinspired word of God. The inspired Word is gone..in the original manuscripts.. but accurate translations have kept it.
I don't understand why KJVO people reject Bibles from the same Textus Receptus that the KJV uses. Eg NASB... NKJV etc..
They use the same source...why do they reject them?
The main argument for KJVO is the promise of God preserving His Word in all generations.
But I thought this was thru preservation in the mountains of manuscripts to translate from... not with one particular translation.
But yea .. my pastor is KJVO ..
But not for every language...his view is it is the preserved Word in English. So I think he believes other languages could have their own perfectly preserved translation.
This has been a struggle for me lately, as there is a church very very similar to the one I'm in now that is not KJVO , but I feel I'd be leaving the church I'm in now for the wrong reasons if I joined that one.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Thank you for sharing your experience. I was once where you are right now. I can tell that you love and share a bond with the people within your church. I know from experience that is so very difficult to disagree with someone that you care so much about. Even if you don't mention it. The book of Amos from the KJV and other editions have these words....
Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
However, Jesus did just that. He disciples often resisted Him and even openly tried to rebuke Him. He just keep loving them. Sometimes even the best relationships are "one sided". We often have to carry one another. People often consider me difficult to get along with but it only because I love people enough to tell them where they are wrong. I don't enjoy the endless criticism. I don't. It is extraordinarily disheartening and difficult. At times, it seems overwhelming. I would encourage you to rely heavily upon the only One that will never abandon you. Never criticize you unless you need it. Everyone else is just human like us all. This life is designed to challenge us at every turn. Designed to continually remind us of the Anchor we have that never moves and never fails. Just keep loving people even when they don't love you. That is the work of Christ in us. He was perfect in His work, we definitely are not.
I mentioned Amos 3:3 because it is an example of a mistake in the KJV and other early modern English translations that enlarges the ego and creates separation among God's children. It makes us believe that everyone has to agree with us in order to share a bond of fellowship in the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. We don't to agree about everything. Love is the bond of perfection. It shatters ego and leaves men broken hearted so Jesus can mend our broken hearts.
I honestly have no idea how why Early Modern English translations chose such words. Even the MT isn't so rigid. KJVOism often creates this "agree with me or get out" mentality. I'm glad Jesus has never acted this way to me. I praise Him for his lovingkindness.
Yeah, the main thing that has been a struggle for me is voicing my disagreement/questioning the person giving the KJVO argument. I got stony silence in response and I didn't understand why. Like I'd said something wrong just by asking about it. Even though they had invited people after service to ask him about it.
I've had the same issue with a previous pastor.. when we joined the church I am in now.. there was no vote to ascertain if the assembly wanted to merge with the other church. I didn't know why we did it.. and tried to ask why through online messaging and I think a text message. I did this because I was scared to ask.. and could still voice what I was thinking through text. I even said that the new place is a very good church to be in. But he just messaged back to see me at the new place.. no reason why given.
I went to visit another church.. the one that is not KJVO.. because their pastor used to be mine, before he left with his family to start a new church. I felt hurt that there was no reason given to move to the new place and thought there should have been a vote from the assembly whether to go there or not.
Then when I got to the new place, he and his family were deliberately ignoring me. I'd go to sit with them or approach them.. and they would move or turn their backs.
What did I do wrong? Just visit another church to see if it suited. Then they gave me stony silence when I came back.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Head up brother. Keep yourself in the love of God. Find significance in Christ. These people you're dealing with are often looking for significance for themselves.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Satan has created those fine sounding arguments for he wants Christians in darkness.
King James might as well be speaking in tongues needing a translator for me.
I find that people who are gullible and zealous find themselves caught in its web.
Those who are set in their way do not really want to concentrate and have things analyzed
for them to be clarified... "to be corrected" and shown how stupid they can be. Being humble
takes being shown how stupid one can be a few times before God has you where He wants
us to learn. God only gives grace to the humble. And, we all have been stupid at times.
And, say what I just did? Invites attack.
So let them be where they are. For if the Holy Spirit does not lead them to truth?
You will be reasoning with flesh and emotions that rule them. Paul had a problem
with this kind of believer in his day, and they brought him to tears.
Here is what I speak of. I will even use the NKJV to make the point.
For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping,
that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction,
whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind
on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly
wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ." Philippians 3:18-20
In those days there was no word "emotion" yet in use. Body parts were used for emotions. "Reins'(kidneys) bowels, belly, etc.
Those believers Paul shed tears over were just as frustrating and self destructive as we find some Christians today.
For their god was their emotions. "Belly" meant their emotions. We see them everywhere. Irrational and dogmatic.
To make matter worse, when the uninformed read the word "belly?" In confusion they assume its about gluttony ...
or make stuff up always missing the point, yet feeling like they are in control because no one really knows what it means.
Those who crave authority over others the KJV makes for a handy tool because the gullible listeners have nothing to think
with to consider what the truth is. They do not want to think. They want an excuse to simply make up their minds and have
no one tell them what to think......
Its a bad place to be.
Well, what bibles would be the most accurate for English then? That aren't paraphrasing?
The reason I prefer the KJV is for its literal translation and close adherence to the Greek. So I can trust it's not messing with most Christian doctrine.
I could also use the NKJV and ASB .. plus others that are accurate to the Greek ..but what would you use?
If you are going to protest against KJVO...then what is your alternative bible/bibles to use?
GeneZ
Well-known member
The Church did not learn by reading their Bibles (which they had none).
The pastor-teachers who studied the Scriptures in the original languages were their Bible.
Some believers had access to synagogues and could search the Torah when allowed.
The Bible is only a tool.
And, in many ways is a means for creating good questions for the reader, to have answered by a good pastor-teacher.
Good pastor-teachers are hard to come by in our day and age.
Yet, God has provided just the same, for those so led by the Spirit to find them.
For the time will come when they will not put up with/endure sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number
of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3
Most pastors looking to keep their power will simply sense what their people want to believe, and telling them what they want to hear.
For the time will come when they will not put up with/endure sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number
of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."
So we be.
Personally, I'm ok with the NKJV when reading the NT. I stay away from NKJV when reading the OT because its source is the Masoretic Hebrew Text. The Masoretes are notorious for altering verses, for the purpose of squashing that viral mutation call Christianity, and for being accomplices in the tearing out of OT books written during the Greek era.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
As a complete collection, there isn't a English Bible that would call "perfect". The KJV certainly isn't the most accurate English translation even of the TR. The Geneva has that honor.
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