On earth he was a perfect mortal. Back in heaven he is Michael. He is a living being, he is in one place at a time. He is NEVER called omnipresent in Gods bible.
What is Communion ?
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Doug Brents
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All things were brought into being by and through Jesus (John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6). If all things came into being by and through Him, then He cannot be part of the created order. He has to predate all created things. Only God is eternal (Heb 13:8, Isa 57:15), and Jesus is eternal (Isa 9:6).
God can do that if he wants. He created all of creation. He created every living being.
He did predate 99%--He was created direct first and last= the only begotten son, the FIRSTBORN of all creation. Then God created all other things through his master worker( Prov 8:30= the one who was beside God during the creation. He gives God 100% credit for it at Prov 8.
Truther
Well-known member
But it’s a stretch to say that Michael the archangel reincarnated into a human. That’s exactly what you’re teaching. Think about it.
God sent his best.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
"All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being." John 1:3
NOTHING was created that was not create through the Word (Jesus). If Jesus was a created being, then He would be SOMETHING that was not created by and through Himself (He cannot have created Himself). 100% of what was created was created by and through Jesus.
Truther
Well-known member
Good post.
Jesus, begotten(created) by his God in the beginning , had everything made by, for and THROUGH him.
It’s that easy.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
You say it is a "good post" and then state the complete opposite of what the "good post" says.
Jesus cannot have been created, because nothing that was created was created without Him, and He could not have created Himself. "Begotten" is not the same as "created".
Yes through him, means another did it=his God and Father=YHVH(Jehovah)
Truther
Well-known member
Do you believe that God has the ability to transcend time?
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Time is a part of creation. It has no meaning (as far as I can determine, and in my opinion) outside of creation (ie: in Heaven and with God). So yes, I believe that God is outside of time, and can be in all places in time at the same time. But that has no impact on whether Jesus was created or not. Scripture, always correct, always reliable Scripture, says that EVERYTHING that was created was created by/through Jesus, and NOTHING that was created was created without Him. That means that Jesus cannot be a created being, because He could not create Himself, and if He was created then He would be something that He did not create (thus violating what Scripture says).
Further, John 1:1 says that "In the beginning...". That is the beginning of time, and since time was created, Jesus existed before that; in the eternity before there was anything else. God is the only thing that is eternal, with no beginning and no end, and Jesus has always been there with, and a part of, God.
Truther
Well-known member
Another question, since God can transcend time, can he actually see or experience things that are yet to happen before they happen? Or does he just know it is going to happen?
Doug Brents
Well-known member
That is not a question I can answer. As Spock and Doctor McCoy discussed in Startrek 4 (I believe it was), in order to have a meaningful conversation on death, both would have to have died and so have a common frame of reference in which to discuss it. I am not God, nor am I outside of time. So I cannot tell you what God can actually see or experience, I do not have that frame of reference to comprehend.
Truther
Well-known member
Did God see(witness) this from the foundation of the world or predict it?...
Psalm 22
King James Version
22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
What I mean is, was Jesus quoting it from the cross or was this quoting Jesus?
Doug Brents
Well-known member
This was written by the Psalmist (probably David), and Jesus was quoting David. It was inspired in David by God in response to the things that were happening to David, which were very similar to what happened to Jesus. Yes, God knew from the beginning what would happen to David and what would happen to Jesus, and through His providence made these similar things happen to both of them.
Truther
Well-known member
You believe that Jesus on the cross, quotes OT men?
Since it is the anointed word of God, you believe he quotes himself? Yikes.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
There is great power in the proper application of quotes of God. Jesus quoted the Word of God (thus quoting Himself) in His defense against the temptations of Satan. Satan even quoted the Word of God in his temptations against Christ, but he was misusing the Scriptures, and so the Scriptures had no power for him.
Why would you believe that it is improper for God to quote Himself?
