What exactly is faith?

[civic]

Faith/Hope. Interesting I just talked about this last Saturday with our mens discipleship group at my house. Both saving faith and hope are in the Person and work of Christ. Christ is called our Blessed Hope. On this side of glory we have faith/confidence in our future hope. Hope is a future expectation of what is assured. Its a certain hope. In glory there will no longer be any need of faith/hope for it will be fully realized. But love is eternal and heaven will be all love being in Gods presence forever. We will know and experience Gods love throughout eternity with others.

Its why I always go back to pre creation- Gods nature/character is love and in eternity future that will be realized. All those other "temporal " attributes many like to argue over and over emphasize related to sin/the fall will disappear/vanish and will not exist. But they don't like having those discussions because if they were open and honest they would leave their human systematics in a heart beat.

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

This is a topic like many which it all depends on how one is using words. I don't believe faith can waver, FAITH is just that FAITH. Without seeming to contradict myself I can say someone's faith wavered but in saying that I'm not insisting on an exact precise way of what words mean.

Faith is not an "abstract". Faith has a tangible application. Jesus and the apostles used various references to describe faith.

Jesus referenced small faith. Even as a grain of mustard seed that grows.
Jesus referenced great faith.
Jesus was surprised by the quality of faith residing in a Gentle Roman officer.

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Paul declared of Abraham....

Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith

Saying one's Faith wavered is just a way we talk in this world. One in faith can waver but if they wavered they got out of faith and into doubt. Should be noted if one is TEMPTED to doubt that doesn't mean one is doubting. It's what one does with those thoughts that came to their mind which define if one has left faith.

Paul referenced faith as a "measure".

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

My faith has grown significantly over the years.

Mar 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

As a young theologian, I took positions that contrasted things I didn't believe were true. Taking that approach limits us. I stopped looking for evidence to combat what I thought was wrong. I started establishing a theological position relative to the Truth.

There is a "sliver" of truth in most any teaching. I realize that challenging what most people believe about faith but I believe what I've said is Truth. I welcome learning differently.

 

[civic]

Faith is not an "abstract". Faith has a tangible application. Jesus and the apostles used various references to describe faith.

Jesus referenced small faith. Even as a grain of mustard seed that grows.
Jesus referenced great faith.
Jesus was surprised by the quality of faith residing in a Gentle Roman officer.

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Paul declared of Abraham....

Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith



Paul referenced faith as a "measure".

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

My faith has grown significantly over the years.

Mar 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

As a young theologian, I took positions that contrasted things I didn't believe were true. Taking that approach limits us. I stopped looking for evidence to combat what I thought was wrong. I started establishing a theological position relative to the Truth.

There is a "sliver" of truth in most any teaching. I realize that challenging what most people believe about faith but I believe what I've said is Truth. I welcome learning differently.

Do you think faith, hope and love are intertwined/connected ? They are all action oriented. They have visible/tangible results in how we live. They don't exist in a vacuum. If Christ is really our Blessed Hope- our anchor and our FAITH is resting in Him then it will be seen in how we Love God and others. Would you agree ?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Abraham had no reasonable expectations Sarah would have a child based on the natural realm. Hope = reasonable expectations

Is that a English definition or from a commentary of some sort?

Abraham was called the friend of God. More than a servant. It is the same blessing that Jesus bestowed upon His disciples when he told them....

Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

The writer of Hebrews used the analogy/comparison to the Immutable council of God's will in comparison to hope being an anchor of our soul.

Heb 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

(I will deal with "Hope against hope" in a little while).

Another thing though came into play....God spoke....God gave a promise or a dealation. Because Abraham knew that would transcend natural realm realities (they were too old to have a child) ( I mean if God can created the heavens and the earth what is this small thing for God) that which once was unreasonable now became so.

Abraham literally lived the Gospel. That is what happens in our lives as well. The more we mature the more we are assured of the immutability of hope. (Realness in our tangible lives)

Pro 13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick,

When we lose hope we are doing more than just wavering. We lose all sense of direction.

Abraham was weak and listened to Sarah and had a child with the "bondwomen". Ishmael descendents now torment the children of Abraham. God's command is severe in "Cast out the bondwoman" .....

Abraham wavered. However, there was an event in the life of Abraham

Isaac had a supernatural birth. Sarah's seed was dead. Abraham's seed was dead. God literally rejuvenated their bodies. Can we imagine that one day Sarah was old and feeble and the next.... Sarah looks 40 years younger. Abraham was a wrinkled old man. One day Abraham can see better. Abraham's eyes notices Sarah and ole Abraham gets "spry and spunky".....

"Our God can do anything"

Abraham crossed the line of not just having hope.....but agreed with the declaration that God said he had made him a Father of many nations. He did not become weak in faith, in holding this belief, but gave glory to God continually that what God said was true, established and a fact regardless of what he saw or felt in the natural realm.

I wish I could get people to stop being so afraid of feelings. We are emotional creatures. God is emotion. Jesus literally weep from being hurt and exhausted from repeatedly being denied. Pain isn't absent in Divinity.

This life we live is about realizing what it is to love someone regardless of what they do. The torture of dealing with the unwilling.

I'm not trying to criticize you. Just trying to put things in perspective.

Hope is tangible in heart. Tangible in God's Immutable promises. It is where we anchor ourselves to the point of comfort and confidence (feelings).

Mind over matter? No it's not mind over matter but having FAITH in God that he changes the matter. (more could be said)

We come to point in our lives where we lose hope. The mind can not overcome this without tangible direction and meaningful comfort through the Spirit of God.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

 

[Soyeong]

That is not what I said.

You said:

"Is Faith "compliance"?

That is how many people treat/teach "faith". Just do what God says (what they classify as obedience) and everything will be okay. There are many issues associated with this perspective of faith.

1. We know that faith is more than compliance. Many people comply with demands of their leaders because they have few choices."

So you are addressing the issue of whether faith is compliance, that is what you said, and I've never heard of anyone who thinks that faith is compliance.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You said:

"Is Faith "compliance"?

That is how many people treat/teach "faith". Just do what God says (what they classify as obedience) and everything will be okay. There are many issues associated with this perspective of faith.

1. We know that faith is more than compliance. Many people comply with demands of their leaders because they have few choices."

So you are addressing the issue of whether faith is compliance, that is what you said, and I've never heard of anyone who thinks that faith is compliance.

I have. I meet you.

 

[Soyeong]

I have. I meet you.

I do not hold that position and you can't quote me as saying anything like that. You do not have my permission to make up things about what I believe.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I do not hold that position and you can't quote me as saying anything like that. You do not have my permission to make up things about what I believe.

I have your words. You didn't have to use the word compliance to be teaching compliance. Being a lawyer yourself, you know better.

You teach obedience as solely being compliance.

Oh do tell how compliance is not an accurate description of your position. So far, all you are doing is complaining about a word.

 

[Soyeong]

I have your words. You didn't have to use the word compliance to be teaching compliance. Being a lawyer yourself, you know better.

You teach obedience as solely being compliance.

Oh do tell how compliance is not an accurate description of your position. So far, all you are doing is complaining about a word.

If you have my words, then quote them, but you will not because you do not have them. I didn't say that you have the use the word "compliance" in order to be teaching it. I teach that the way to have faith in God to correctly divide between right and wrong through the Mosaic Law is by being a complier of it. I do not teach that every act of compliance to it is acting in faith.

 

[praise_yeshua]

If you have my words, then quote them, but you will not because you do not have them. I didn't say that you have the use the word "compliance" in order to be teaching it. I teach that the way to have faith in God to correctly divide between right and wrong through the Mosaic Law is by being a complier of it. I do not teach that every act of compliance to it is acting in faith.

See. You do teach compliance. You're creating a distinction with little to no difference to ignore the fact you do.

 

[Rockson]

Is that a English definition or from a commentary of some sort?

LOL Nope, Just a reasonable rendering I think of what was going on. We using hope here and at times we need other words to define it's application in an event. The event was Abraham/Sarah going to have a child.

Was it a reasonable expectation for one to have just in the natural to be able to expect this? No way. Not a chance. But Ab could override what natural impulse told his mind for God had spoken, It now becomes a whole different ball game with it now becoming a reasonable expectation. Obviously the reason why is because God is God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

LOL Nope, Just a reasonable rendering I think of what was going on. We using hope here and at times we need other words to define it's application in an event. The event was Abraham/Sarah going to have a child.

Was it a reasonable expectation for one to have just in the natural to be able to expect this? No way. Not a chance. But Ab could override what natural impulse told his mind for God had spoken, It now becomes a whole different ball game with it now becoming a reasonable expectation. Obviously the reason why is because God is God.

We are saying similar things... just differently...

Do you agree with my assessment of what happened to Abraham and Sarah? I believe God rejuvenated their dead bodies. A supernatural event. Is a "allegory" to the miraculous Virgin Birth of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

See. You do teach compliance. You're creating a distinction with little to no difference to ignore the fact you do.

I teach that we should be compliers of God's instructions through faith. I do not teach that all compliance is faith and have never seen anyone teach that. You are the one who made the point that people comply with demands their leads because they have few choices, so I agree with the obvious reality that people can comply for reasons other than faith, but you are arguing against a position that no one holds.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I teach that we should be compliers of God's instructions through faith. I do not teach that all compliance is faith and have never seen anyone teach that. You are the one who made the point that people comply with demands their leads because they have few choices, so I agree with the obvious reality that people can comply for reasons other than faith, but you are arguing against a position that no one holds.

It is exactly what you believe. You believe complying with the law is being faithful to God. You insist over and over again that is a requirement of faith to comply with the law.

Here. Let me share some Scripture. Please deal with each of them.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

Exo 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Compliance without faith... while claiming to please God.

Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Compliance to the law, no faith... while claiming to please God.

 

[Rockson]

We are saying similar things... just differently...

Do you agree with my assessment of what happened to Abraham and Sarah? I believe God rejuvenated their dead bodies. A supernatural event. Is a "allegory" to the miraculous Virgin Birth of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Sure. And you said God made them look 40 years younger. God renewed their youth like the eagles. Yeah I can see it's like an allegory or type of the virgin birth.

 

[Soyeong]

It is exactly what you believe. You believe complying with the law is being faithful to God. You insist over and over again that is a requirement of faith to comply with the law.

Here. Let me share some Scripture. Please deal with each of them.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

Exo 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Compliance without faith... while claiming to please God.

Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Compliance to the law, no faith... while claiming to please God.

There are many verses that connect our faith with our obedience to God, so being an complier of law is the way to have faith in God, though again, not all compliance is out of faith. In other words, the way to believe in God is by believing that we ought to be in his image as doers of His character traits by obeying His law.

In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the law by pursuing it as through righteousness were earned as the result of their works instead of pursing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, this faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, in regard to saying that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the death. So I agree that the problem was that they were not complying with God's law through faith, though the solution to that problem is to start complying with God's law through faith.

In Exodus 19:7-8, it doesn't say that they were complying without faith. It wasn't as no one in the history of Israel had faith.

You've intentionally taken Deuteronomy 32:20 in context, so you shouldn't need me to explain that one to you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

There are many verses that connect our faith with our obedience to God, so being an complier of law is the way to have faith in God,

I'm just going to stop right here. You need to acknowledging that I was right when I made my statement that you believe faith is compliance.

I don't care a single thing about accepting your "double talk". I don't. You can do that alone.

Thanks

 

[Soyeong]

I'm just going to stop right here. You need to acknowledging that I was right when I made my statement that you believe faith is compliance.

I don't care a single thing about accepting your "double talk". I don't. You can do that alone.

Thanks

People can be compliers through faith, though not all compliance is done in faith, and this has been my position from the start, so you are intentionally misrepresenting my position, and the double talk is all coming from you.

If you ask me to please deal with the verses that you cited, then you should at least respond to what I said.

 

[praise_yeshua]

People can be compliers through faith, though not all compliance is done in faith, and this has been my position from the start, so you are intentionally misrepresenting my position, and the double talk is all coming from you.

If you ask me to please deal with the verses that you cited, then you should at least respond to what I said.

You said I took it in context. Why are you complaining that I didn't answer you?

No. You can't comply through faith. Compliance is not about faith. Compliance can never be about faith.

I've told my children to clean up their room before. They complied. They didn't really believe their room needed cleaning. You know how I know? Because if they had, then they would have done it without me having to ask them do so.

Which is exactly why lawyers like yourself can never really understand that laws do not govern the faithful. Laws are incomplete and insufficient to teach the very heart of the lawgiver.

My children lived by my laws. When they got to the point of "having their way", they did what they pleased. All they did was comply. They never understood why I said the things I did. They never really knew what it is to actually be ME. One day they will. Through... conformity.

So go ahead and keep pretending you're pleasing your father by complying.

 

[Soyeong]

You said I took it in context. Why are you complaining that I didn't answer you?

You asked me to please answer your question and then ignored what I said.

No. You can't comply through faith. Compliance is not about faith. Compliance can never be about faith.

I've told my children to clean up their room before. They complied. They didn't really believe their room needed cleaning. You know how I know? Because if they had, then they would have done it without me having to ask them do so.

Which is exactly why lawyers like yourself can never really understand that laws do not govern the faithful. Laws are incomplete and insufficient to teach the very heart of the lawgiver.

My children lived by my laws. When they got to the point of "having their way", they did what they pleased. All they did was comply. They never understood why I said the things I did. They never really knew what it is to actually be ME. One day they will. Through... conformity.

So go ahead and keep pretending you're pleasing your father by complying.

The fact that people can comply for reasons other than faith does not mean that people can't comply through faith. If someone has faith in God to guide them in how to rightly live through the Mosaic Law, then they will be an complier of it. How can David be consider to be a man after God's own heart is His law was incomplete and insufficient to teach the very heart of the lawgiver? It is not as though the way to please the Father is by refusing to comply with His instructions, so you can keep pretending that.