What do JW's Believe ?

[TibiasDad]

Gen 1:27--HE( not we) created--Prov 8= HE( not we) created all things. HE( God=YHVH) created all things-THROUGH Jesus, except Jesus he created direct-first and last= only begotten son.

Again, all three members of the Godhead are scripturally depicted as being present and active in the creation process. So, as I’ve cited earlier, Isa 44:24 says, “This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself…”

Orthodoxy says we believe in the three in one because of scriptures like this! And there are many more that dovetail perfectly with this.

Doug

 

[Keiw1]

Again, all three members of the Godhead are scripturally depicted as being present and active in the creation process. So, as I’ve cited earlier, Isa 44:24 says, “This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself…”

Orthodoxy says we believe in the three in one because of scriptures like this! And there are many more that dovetail perfectly with this.

Doug

Yes by himself=Jehovah. He is the only one with the power and wisdom to create. That is why Jesus is called Gods master worker. Jesus didn't create anything, he was a worker, Jehovah created all other things by himself-THROUGH- his master worker.

 

[TibiasDad]

Yes by himself=Jehovah. He is the only one with the power and wisdom to create. That is why Jesus is called Gods master worker. Jesus didn't create anything, he was a worker, Jehovah created all other things by himself-THROUGH- his master worker.

I’ve already shown you Col1:16 where Paul writes, “For in him all things were created…”, which means that he did, within himself, have the power and wisdom to create. And again, John says “By means of him (the Word) all things were created, and without him not one thing was made that has been made.” The Word created all things!

And your logic is wrong; that one is a worker does not mean he is powerless to create!

And if he “created all other things by himself-THROUGH- his master worker”, then he did not do it “by myself”.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Jehovah created all other things by himself-THROUGH- his master worker.

1) Jehovah created all other things?

2) How can there be a “master worker” who has no creative power? Seems to be a more inert worker than a master worker!


Doug

 

[Rockson]

Yes by himself=Jehovah. He is the only one with the power and wisdom to create. That is why Jesus is called Gods master worker. Jesus didn't create anything, he was a worker, Jehovah created all other things by himself-THROUGH- his master worker.

So if Jehovah created all things by himself then what exactly do you feel this one you call the master worker did?

 

[Keiw1]

I’ve already shown you Col1:16 where Paul writes, “For in him all things were created…”, which means that he did, within himself, have the power and wisdom to create. And again, John says “By means of him (the Word) all things were created, and without him not one thing was made that has been made.” The Word created all things!

And your logic is wrong; that one is a worker does not mean he is powerless to create!

And if he “created all other things by himself-THROUGH- his master worker”, then he did not do it “by myself”.


Doug

It says through him. I showed you--by myself means he is the only one with the power and wisdom to create.

 

[Keiw1]

1) Jehovah created all other things?

2) How can there be a “master worker” who has no creative power? Seems to be a more inert worker than a master worker!


Doug

God called him his master worker.

 

[Keiw1]

So if Jehovah created all things by himself then what exactly do you feel this one you call the master worker did?

It doesn't say. But 100% he did Gods will. I didn't call him Gods master worker, God did at Prov 8:30--Prov 8 explains creating.
Gen 1:27-HE( not we) created--Prov 8-HE( not we) created.

 

[TibiasDad]

It says through him.

Col 1:16For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Paul uses all three in the verse; in, through, and for him. That is a wholistic approach to say that the creation is totally because of and by means of Christ, as well as for him!

I showed you--by myself means he is the only one with the power and wisdom to create.

And I showed you that you are incorrect! That is not what “by myself” means. It means that there were no other “workers”/ people involved, that only one being is involved. All involved are God in nature and thus God did it “by myself” for they are One.

Another very real possibility is that all the Jehovah references regarding the creation are referring to Christ directly as Yahweh!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

God called him his master worker.

God called his wisdom his master worker! It is a poetic image personifying a non-corporal aspect of God!

But a master worker cannot be void of power.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

It doesn't say. But 100% he did Gods will. I didn't call him Gods master worker, God did at Prov 8:30--Prov 8 explains creating.
Gen 1:27-HE( not we) created--Prov 8-HE( not we) created.

Gen 1:26Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,

Note a singular being with a singular image belonging to a plurality of persons!

Doug

 

[Keiw1]

Col 1:16For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Paul uses all three in the verse; in, through, and for him. That is a wholistic approach to say that the creation is totally because of and by means of Christ, as well as for him!




And I showed you that you are incorrect! That is not what “by myself” means. It means that there were no other “workers”/ people involved, that only one being is involved. All involved are God in nature and thus God did it “by myself” for they are One.

Another very real possibility is that all the Jehovah references regarding the creation are referring to Christ directly as Yahweh!

Doug

The words through and for=prove 100% another did the creating=HE, not we.=pure bible evidence.

 

[Keiw1]

Gen 1:26Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,

Note a singular being with a singular image belonging to a plurality of persons!

Doug

Let us=YHVH and his master worker.-proves 100%= HE,( YHVH) not we did the creating.=Pure bible evidence.

 

[TibiasDad]

The words through and for=prove 100% another did the creating=HE, not we.=pure bible evidence.

I see no proof of this premise.

Through him means “by means of”.

For him means Jesus created it and thus it is his. He is the owner and holds authority over it. As Col 1:17 says, “17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.”

(Note the absence of “other” in 17a; it is not in the Greek, and it is totally inaccurate to insert it into the text. This is pure Bible evidence.)

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Let us=YHVH and his master worker.-proves 100%= HE,( YHVH) not we did the creating.=Pure bible evidence.

You can’t ignore the “singular being with a singular image belonging to a plurality of persons!”

Doug

 

[Keiw1]

I see no proof of this premise.

Through him means “by means of”.

For him means Jesus created it and thus it is his. He is the owner and holds authority over it. As Col 1:17 says, “17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.”

(Note the absence of “other” in 17a; it is not in the Greek, and it is totally inaccurate to insert it into the text. This is pure Bible evidence.)

Doug

If you cannot see bible reality, the darkness owns you. What don't you understand about-HE--not we?

 

[Keiw1]

You can’t ignore the “singular being with a singular image belonging to a plurality of persons!”

Doug

Israel NEVER served a trinity God while serving the true God. They served the true God=YHVH(Jehovah)
You see if you weren't being forced to use altered translations that mislead one in the darkness and had enough love and respect for God, unlike your religion, you would use a translation with Gods name put back in the over 7000 places God wants it, thus Jesus wants it there as well. But those being blinded( 2 Cor 4:4) cannot see Gods will.

 

[TibiasDad]

If you cannot see bible reality, the darkness owns you. What don't you understand about-HE--not we?

With all due respect, @Keiw 1, you have not followed the scriptural evidence I presented. Col 1:16 says in him, through, him and for him. You have to take all three things together.

I understand about He, my friend, the question is that you have 3 personalities involved (or given your theology, at least two personalities, the Father and the Word)
If it is a singular person to which “He” is referring, then which person is it?

Both the Father and the Son are credited with creation (Gen 1, John 1, Col 1, Heb 1) and in the NT, it is the Son that is continually pictured in the role of creator.

So, is the OT contradicting the NT? The most direct (and scriptural) explanation is the answer is No, The God of creation in the OT is The Word, Jesus Christ in the NT.

The only logical and scripturally accurate explanation is that Jesus is God in terms of his natural state of existence. I have explained scripturally why I disagree with your opinion. You have yet to answer me with scriptural evidence that what I have said about the scripture is not correct and why.

I have not referred to any translation as true, but rather the Greek itself. You have not given anything beyond the the WTS’s standard and unsupported quotations. (Which I’ve learned to to expect from ‘well trained’ members of Kingdom Hall.) You are trained to repeat what they tell you, rather than trained to exegete scripture with scripture. Members of Kingdom Hall are told to not study the Bible on your own, or at least not without Watchtower/Kingdom supervision and guidance. That is why exegesis is not taught. The top leaders of the Watchtower have allegedly done the “exegesis” and told the various Kingdom Halls under their supervision what to say, rather than teach their people how to do the work for themselves.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Israel NEVER served a trinity God while serving the true God. They served the true God=YHVH(Jehovah)

That’s because they rejected their Messiah!

You see if you weren't being forced to use altered translations that mislead one in the darkness and had enough love and respect for God, unlike your religion, you would use a translation with Gods name put back in the over 7000 places God wants it, thus Jesus wants it there as well. But those being blinded( 2 Cor 4:4) cannot see Gods will.

Again, I have tried to deal with the Greek, not the English translation. There is no Greek ms or any numerous examples that has the Tetragrammaton in it for the NT writings. Kurios is the Greek word for Lord. A capital K always indicates that God is being referenced in relation to the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. Which is critical for when Jude calls Jesus “our only Sovereign and Lord”!


Doug

 

[Keiw1]

With all due respect, @Keiw 1, you have not followed the scriptural evidence I presented. Col 1:16 says in him, through, him and for him. You have to take all three things together.

I understand about He, my friend, the question is that you have 3 personalities involved (or given your theology, at least two personalities, the Father and the Word)
If it is a singular person to which “He” is referring, then which person is it?

Both the Father and the Son are credited with creation (Gen 1, John 1, Col 1, Heb 1) and in the NT, it is the Son that is continually pictured in the role of creator.

So, is the OT contradicting the NT? The most direct (and scriptural) explanation is the answer is No, The God of creation in the OT is The Word, Jesus Christ in the NT.

The only logical and scripturally accurate explanation is that Jesus is God in terms of his natural state of existence. I have explained scripturally why I disagree with your opinion. You have yet to answer me with scriptural evidence that what I have said about the scripture is not correct and why.

I have not referred to any translation as true, but rather the Greek itself. You have not given anything beyond the the WTS’s standard and unsupported quotations. (Which I’ve learned to to expect from ‘well trained’ members of Kingdom Hall.) You are trained to repeat what they tell you, rather than trained to exegete scripture with scripture. Members of Kingdom Hall are told to not study the Bible on your own, or at least not without Watchtower/Kingdom supervision and guidance. That is why exegesis is not taught. The top leaders of the Watchtower have allegedly done the “exegesis” and told the various Kingdom Halls under their supervision what to say, rather than teach their people how to do the work for themselves.

Doug

Do you understand English? Through and for him=100% fact that another had to do it. Gen 1:27= HE created, not WE.