What do JW's Believe ?

[Keiw1]

The Greek is διά, which with the genitive means that the Word is the immediate means through which something happens or is done.

The genitive means that the subject to which it is applied is the ‘owner’ of the action; thus, the Word is the owner of the act of creation. This is why the emphatic tag of “without him” is made.

The Father makes the Son, the Word, the instrument through which and by which the creation comes to be. And this is not just calling the Word the instrument or tool in the hands of another, for we do not praise the ‘hammer’ for the house being built, but the actual builder. The Word is praised, not the Father, as the builder.

Finally, the Word was necessarily already existent before creation if he is the means through which/by which creation is accomplished.


Doug

trinity twisting. Jesus would have to be his Father in order for that assertation to be truth that you posted. Psalm 110:1 quoted at Matt 22:44 proves Jesus is not Jehovah, and its Jehovah who is doing it all. (Acts 2:22--God( Jehovah) did ALL the powerful works through Jesus,) same with creating.
Jesus is Gods image-not God.

 

[Keiw1]

In the first place, you do realize that the “and” in the middle of the clause connects the second clause to the first. The only possible way to interpret this is that whoever is the Lord in the first clause is also the God of the second clause.

Secondly, Kurios, is the Greek word used in the LXX to represent Yahweh in the OT. The use of all Caps was used to distinguish the use of the Tetragrammaton but that is not necessary in the Greek. The capital ‘L’ is all that is needed. I would remind you of Jude’s definitive declaration of Jesus as “Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.”

Finally, you should have realized that I didn’t quote any translation, but only cited the Greek itself. Moreover, I didn’t refer to the translation itself, but rather the grammar that defines the translation. Nobody fears using the Name. We use it of all who are worthy! “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive honor and glory and power”!


Doug

Jehovahs name belongs in the NT = over 200 spots where the OT is quoted.
Here is a misleading deception that will cost billions their eternal life by using the altered translations
Joel 2:21-22-Those who call on the name of Jehovah will be saved--quoted 2 x in NT at Acts 2:21,, Romans 10:13--the name Jehovah belongs at all 3 spots. But the altered translations has Lord at all 3 spots. Since Jesus is called Lord(1Cor 8:6) all using the altered translations will call on his name in error because they are being mislead by the removal of Gods name--FACT= Only false religions are using the altered translations. Jesus would use a translation done by Gods will, not one altered by satans will to mislead.

 

[TibiasDad]

trinity twisting. Jesus would have to be his Father in order for that assertation to be truth that you posted. Psalm 110:1 quoted at Matt 22:44 proves Jesus is not Jehovah, and its Jehovah who is doing it all. (Acts 2:22--God( Jehovah) did ALL the powerful works through Jesus,) same with creating.
Jesus is Gods image-not God.

It is not Trinity twisting; it is pure Greek grammar. God inspires the grammar that communicates the meaning as well as the meaning itself.

Jesus and the Father are distinct individuals; John 1:1 demonstrates that is true. But the fact that they are both together prior to creation necessarily means they are both eternal in nature, ie, uncreated beings.

So they are both equal in nature of being. That is what makes them both God in nature. There is no difference between them, but the Word, in role, is the Son, the Father takes the lead (and the Holy Spirit is the Helper, the Paraklete).

Jesus as a human being, setting an example, would necessarily speak to his Father as God. This doesn’t preclude his equality of nature with his Father. You are just as human as your father, yet two distinct persons. If we are like that, why could it not be possible that God’s own son would have his same nature. (Which would mean at a minimum that he would be eternal.)

Phil 2:6 says ὃς ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ, which literally means “Who (was) in (the) form of God” or “Who (existed) in God’s form”.

The context is pre-incarnation, thus the past tense verbs inserted. The fact of the first clause establishes the context for the second clause. That because he existed in the form or nature of God, he did not think it wrong to claim equality with God- for he existed in God’s form. But rather than boasting about it, he humbled himself and became human. That is why God worked through Jesus’s humanity, Jesus had emptied himself of the right to use his own power to live within the confines of human strength and capacity.

That’s why God, after raising him from the dead, gave him the name above all names, Yahweh, and exalted him to the highest place (which is as God, the head of the church).

In Revelation, the Father and the Lamb are praised equally and together. The Lamb is never praised less than the Father.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Jehovahs name belongs in the NT = over 200 spots where the OT is quoted.
Here is a misleading deception that will cost billions their eternal life by using the altered translations
Joel 2:21-22-Those who call on the name of Jehovah will be saved--quoted 2 x in NT at Acts 2:21,, Romans 10:13--the name Jehovah belongs at all 3 spots. But the altered translations has Lord at all 3 spots. Since Jesus is called Lord(1Cor 8:6) all using the altered translations will call on his name in error because they are being mislead by the removal of Gods name--FACT= Only false religions are using the altered translations. Jesus would use a translation done by Gods will, not one altered by satans will to mislead.

Once again, you move the goalposts to avoid dealing with my evidence. You do realize that just saying “you’re wrong” doesn’t mean anything, don’t you? Evidence is the only means to proving a claim right or wrong.

There is no mss evidence to support anything you have claimed, and you’ve offered no grammatical evidence of my being in error. (I know, there isn’t any; that’s why you changed the subject. It’s okay, I forgive you!)


Doug

 

[koberstein]

Once again, you move the goalposts to avoid dealing with my evidence. You do realize that just saying “you’re wrong” doesn’t mean anything, don’t you? Evidence is the only means to proving a claim right or wrong.

There is no mss evidence to support anything you have claimed, and you’ve offered no grammatical evidence of my being in error. (I know, there isn’t any; that’s why you changed the subject. It’s okay, I forgive you!)


Doug

Well said

 

[Keiw1]

It is not Trinity twisting; it is pure Greek grammar. God inspires the grammar that communicates the meaning as well as the meaning itself.

Jesus and the Father are distinct individuals; John 1:1 demonstrates that is true. But the fact that they are both together prior to creation necessarily means they are both eternal in nature, ie, uncreated beings.

So they are both equal in nature of being. That is what makes them both God in nature. There is no difference between them, but the Word, in role, is the Son, the Father takes the lead (and the Holy Spirit is the Helper, the Paraklete).

Jesus as a human being, setting an example, would necessarily speak to his Father as God. This doesn’t preclude his equality of nature with his Father. You are just as human as your father, yet two distinct persons. If we are like that, why could it not be possible that God’s own son would have his same nature. (Which would mean at a minimum that he would be eternal.)

Phil 2:6 says ὃς ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ, which literally means “Who (was) in (the) form of God” or “Who (existed) in God’s form”.

The context is pre-incarnation, thus the past tense verbs inserted. The fact of the first clause establishes the context for the second clause. That because he existed in the form or nature of God, he did not think it wrong to claim equality with God- for he existed in God’s form. But rather than boasting about it, he humbled himself and became human. That is why God worked through Jesus’s humanity, Jesus had emptied himself of the right to use his own power to live within the confines of human strength and capacity.

That’s why God, after raising him from the dead, gave him the name above all names, Yahweh, and exalted him to the highest place (which is as God, the head of the church).

In Revelation, the Father and the Lamb are praised equally and together. The Lamb is never praised less than the Father.


Doug

Its trinity twisting of the grammar.'Why do you think over 20 translations in history by Greek scholars had a god at John 1:1? and 3 had was divine, 1 had was godlike> 2Cor 4:4 translating proves 100% a god belongs at John 1:1

 

[Keiw1]

Well said

by the ones in darkness. The house divided it will not stand = the mass of confusion called trinity religionssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss=hundreds of them with hundreds of different truths. Fail this true mark 100%-1Cor 1:10-Unity of thought( all of Gods 1 truth) no division. Yet you will throw real bible evidence in the garbage to give support to the darkness= sad.

 

[Keiw1]

Well said

Trinity evidence= darkness. Its why they are a mass of confusion, all teaching different truths on matters.

Once again, you move the goalposts to avoid dealing with my evidence. You do realize that just saying “you’re wrong” doesn’t mean anything, don’t you? Evidence is the only means to proving a claim right or wrong.

There is no mss evidence to support anything you have claimed, and you’ve offered no grammatical evidence of my being in error. (I know, there isn’t any; that’s why you changed the subject. It’s okay, I forgive you!)


Doug

Trinity evidence= darkness-Hundreds of those religions teaching hundreds of different truths--How many truths did God put into his bible= 1. Jesus is with the 1 religion who has Gods 1 truth.

 

[TibiasDad]

Its trinity twisting of the grammar.'Why do you think over 20 translations in history by Greek scholars had a god at John 1:1? and 3 had was divine, 1 had was godlike>

So how many other translations are there? My understanding is that there are roughly 900 translations into English, and many more in other languages.

So 874 translations say “God” while 24 don’t. If we’re playing a numbers game, I win!

What quantifies a Greek Scholar? Who says these translators are scholars?

2Cor 4:4 translating proves 100% a god belongs at John 1:1

There is no way this is true. They are not the same grammatical construction. Your ignorance of Greek is showing.

2 Cor 4:4 ἐν οἷς ὁ θεὸς τοῦ αἰῶνος… ὁ θεὸς is the nominative noun, where θεὸς in John 1:1c is a predicate. (It is a modifier of the noun, like an adjective in English.)

2Cor has the article (The) while John 1:1c does not.

These are not comparable verses. The translation of one verse is not a reason in itself to translate it the same in another verse.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Trinity evidence= darkness-Hundreds of those religions teaching hundreds of different truths--How many truths did God put into his bible= 1. Jesus is with the 1 religion who has Gods 1 truth.

Again, all bravado, no evidence! There are many truths in scripture. One of them, to again cite Jude, is “Jesus, our only Sovereign and Lord”. (Sovereign is the Greek word Despotes, which means “master”. If Jesus is our only Master and Lord, what is the Father?)

Doug

 

[Keiw1]

So how many other translations are there? My understanding is that there are roughly 900 translations into English, and many more in other languages.

So 874 translations say “God” while 24 don’t. If we’re playing a numbers game, I win!

What quantifies a Greek Scholar? Who says these translators are scholars?



There is no way this is true. They are not the same grammatical construction. Your ignorance of Greek is showing.

2 Cor 4:4 ἐν οἷς ὁ θεὸς τοῦ αἰῶνος… ὁ θεὸς is the nominative noun, where θεὸς in John 1:1c is a predicate. (It is a modifier of the noun, like an adjective in English.)

2Cor has the article (The) while John 1:1c does not.

These are not comparable verses. The translation of one verse is not a reason in itself to translate it the same in another verse.


Doug

100% undeniable FACT--When Ton Theon=God is in the same paragraph with Theos=god. Your translations have it correct at 2 Cor 4:4. Translating the same at both spots. Unbias Greek scholars put a god at John 1:1--

 

[Keiw1]

Again, all bravado, no evidence! There are many truths in scripture. One of them, to again cite Jude, is “Jesus, our only Sovereign and Lord”. (Sovereign is the Greek word Despotes, which means “master”. If Jesus is our only Master and Lord, what is the Father?)

Doug

The Father has stepped aside for now. The Father GAVE Jesus all authority in heaven and earth and judging. If Jesus were God he would have already had all 3. But at the end of Rev 20, this occurs-1Cor 15:24-28--Jesus must hand back the kingdom to his God and Father and subject himself))))= forever. In the Lords prayer Jesus tells all the kingdom belongs to the Father.

 

[TibiasDad]

The Father has stepped aside for now. The Father GAVE Jesus all authority in heaven and earth and judging. If Jesus were God he would have already had all 3. But at the end of Rev 20, this occurs-1Cor 15:24-28--Jesus must hand back the kingdom to his God and Father and subject himself))))= forever. In the Lords prayer Jesus tells all the kingdom belongs to the Father.

So the Father has stepped aside; is God on vacation?

The Father gave the Son control of all things-this included having the Word create all things by the Word’s own power. This is why Paul says, “For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.” (Col 1:16)

“In him” because it was his own power, creativity and desire. “Through him” because he is the active agent. And “for him” for it is for his own purposes and for his own possession.

Jesus had all three, but he had willingly submitted his rights to the Father’s authority. The Father allowed the Son to accomplish what he wanted to do.

At the end, the Son gives all he created to the Father as the supreme authority. This is an act of love and respect to the Father.

The praise of all creation in the end is equally to both the Father and the Lamb.
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” (Rev 5:13, also see 7:10 and 14:4)

Finally, Isa 44:24 says, “This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself…”

The NT clearly claims these things about Jesus. The only way that God can say that he did these things “by myself” is if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are inseparably united as one. The Bible places all three as active participants in the creation event. There is no other logically coherent way to explain “by Myself”!


Doug

 

[koberstein]

So the Father has stepped aside; is God on vacation?

The Father gave the Son control of all things-this included having the Word create all things by the Word’s own power. This is why Paul says, “For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.” (Col 1:16)

“In him” because it was his own power, creativity and desire. “Through him” because he is the active agent. And “for him” for it is for his own purposes and for his own possession.

Jesus had all three, but he had willingly submitted his rights to the Father’s authority. The Father allowed the Son to accomplish what he wanted to do.

At the end, the Son gives all he created to the Father as the supreme authority. This is an act of love and respect to the Father.

The praise of all creation in the end is equally to both the Father and the Lamb.
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” (Rev 5:13, also see 7:10 and 14:4)

Finally, Isa 44:24 says, “This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself…”

The NT clearly claims these things about Jesus. The only way that God can say that he did these things “by myself” is if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are inseparably united as one. The Bible places all three as active participants in the creation event. There is no other logically coherent way to explain “by Myself”!


Doug

Eloquent post!

 

[TibiasDad]

Eloquent post!

Thank you!


Doug

 

[Keiw1]

So the Father has stepped aside; is God on vacation?

The Father gave the Son control of all things-this included having the Word create all things by the Word’s own power. This is why Paul says, “For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.” (Col 1:16)

“In him” because it was his own power, creativity and desire. “Through him” because he is the active agent. And “for him” for it is for his own purposes and for his own possession.

Jesus had all three, but he had willingly submitted his rights to the Father’s authority. The Father allowed the Son to accomplish what he wanted to do.

At the end, the Son gives all he created to the Father as the supreme authority. This is an act of love and respect to the Father.

The praise of all creation in the end is equally to both the Father and the Lamb.
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” (Rev 5:13, also see 7:10 and 14:4)

Finally, Isa 44:24 says, “This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself…”

The NT clearly claims these things about Jesus. The only way that God can say that he did these things “by myself” is if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are inseparably united as one. The Bible places all three as active participants in the creation event. There is no other logically coherent way to explain “by Myself”!


Doug

He allowed Jesus to have all authority for now. Jesus made the ransom sacrifice, a kingship, a bride and all authority and judging was given to him for that sacrifice.

 

[TibiasDad]

He allowed Jesus to have all authority for now. Jesus made the ransom sacrifice, a kingship, a bride and all authority and judging was given to him for that sacrifice.

He allowed Jesus to use his own power. He did not give him something he did not possess. That’s the point! Jesus possessed all the power to create, all the authority to act and judge. God gave him the role and context in which to use it.

Doug

 

[Keiw1]

He allowed Jesus to use his own power. He did not give him something he did not possess. That’s the point! Jesus possessed all the power to create, all the authority to act and judge. God gave him the role and context in which to use it.

Doug

Acts 2:22-GOD did all the powerful works through Jesus.

 

[TibiasDad]

Acts 2:22-GOD did all the powerful works through Jesus.

During the incarnation, yes, Jesus limited himself to human capacities. But not so the Word and the resurrected Christ prior to and after the incarnation.


Doug

 

[Keiw1]

During the incarnation, yes, Jesus limited himself to human capacities. But not so the Word and the resurrected Christ prior to and after the incarnation.


Doug

Gen 1:27--HE( not we) created--Prov 8= HE( not we) created all things. HE( God=YHVH) created all things-THROUGH Jesus, except Jesus he created direct-first and last= only begotten son.