Ok Dwight thanks for your response. I see where you're coming from . So you're saying 2 Thess 2:1,8 takes place over an incredibly long length of time from 500 AD to our present day or 15K years or so. To me I get a sense the sequence of events Paul mentioned wouldn't entail such a big gap of time,
that is between a falling away until the Son of perdition, or what some call the antichrist. So the Pope of 500 AD apparently was one
called
Dwight - Paul said in verse 1-3 that the 2nd coming and the rapture would not happen until the falling away, the revealing of the man of lawlessness and the taking away of "he who now restrains" So , YES, from Paul's time to the 2nd coming is a long length of time. The sequence of events last all the way to the return of Christ. Then in verse 8 he mentions that at the 2nd coming, that the Lord will slay the man of lawlessness with the breath of His mouth. Again, we're talking about 2000+ years and Paul himself is the one referring to that length of time, not me. It's likely that Paul himself did not know how much time that would take, and of course we don't either, because we don't know when the Lord will return.
Symmachus or a Pope of his era was the first one you'd say was the Son of Perdition. But you make it a blend of all Popes after him to our present day. That would probably be at least about 150 Popes or something like that from 500 AD to now. Doesn't seem reasonable to me. I've said before and will say again 2 Thess 2 has the appearance it's talking about A MAN, singular and that very man is the one of whom the latter verse speaks of where,
"....the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming"
Dwight - No, I believe Paul may have known about the existence of this man-made church while he was still alive. We know that he was in Rome at least two years and I would think that he disliked it from the start. How could he not? It was NOT a church organization that God started. It is unclear exactly when the man of lawlessness was revealed, but we can safely assume that at the point that the Catholic church became guilty of mass lawlessness, is the point when they could rightfully be called the man of lawlessness. Remember that the Catholic church was not just the Popes. It consisted of thousands, maybe millions who followed them - many out of fear for their lives if they didn't, especially when the church began killing nonCatholics. Others followed the church willingly and actually did the bidding of the church. So the term "man of lawlessness" could refer to all the people who were part of the Catholic church- or to be more accurate, all the Catholics who participated in their church's evil deeds.
Dwight -I read that they killed multiplied thousands of Jews throughout Europe as early as the 300's, and they would also kill non Jews who attempted to protect the Jews. Some say Rome fell in 476 A.D. when a Roman emperor was defeated. Then the Popes became more powerful to the point of them not only ruling the Catholic church, but also ruling sections of Italy, which were called Papal States. Now they were also political leaders, not just religious leader. When they ordered the killing of Christians and Jews, the "soldiers" who carried that out order, were complicit in their crimes.
Dwight - I counted 265 Popes since 67 A.D. when Linius was made the "2nd" Pope, or they may have called them the Bishop of Rome at that time. I do not include Peter, which the Catholic church claims was the first Pope or Bishop of Rome. I don't believe that. Jesus appointed Peter as an apostle, and I doubt seriously that he would take a position where he would be called Pope or Bishop by men from a man-made church organization. We see from his epistles that he was a very humble man and that in obedience to His Lord, he would not allow men to "exalt" him in a man-made church. In fact, Pope means "Father" and Jesus told Peter and the other 11 apostles, "Call no man your Father ..."
Dwight - Regarding the word "man" referring to a single man - well Paul called the body of Christ "man" in Ephesians 2:15 - "... so that in Himself He might make the two (Jews and Gentiles) into one new man, ..." Yet the body of Christ is millions of men
We see a similar pattern of this in other scriptures. Satan himself was brought down immediately when he sought to take the place of God. Lk 10:18 You recall Dan 4:4 Nebuchadnezzar in the OT became presumptions who exalted himself as God and the true God brought him down.
The key is right away. We also see in Acts 12:23 where Herod took the place of praise that he was a god an angel came down and smote him.
Dwight - Luke 10:18 says nothing about Satan seeking to take the place of God. The context is the disciples returning with joy because they could cast out demons. Jesus' response could be his way of saying that Satan's kingdom was being successfully attacked by his demons being ordered out of people. We know that Jesus had a habit of making statements that were not always meant to be taken literally. "Drink My blood and eat My flesh" or "If you can accept it, he (John the Baptist) is Elijah." or "Lazarus is asleep" etc.
So what you have in your view is some Pope did this similar thing and God doesn't respond. He then let's 150 Popes or so do the same thing and finally the last one get's the judgement. To me it just doesn't add up. All the other cases in Lk 10:18, Dan 4:4 and Acts 12: 23 God acted immediately when somebody did this. Your interpretation has God going against his manner of standing up not letting anybody get away with this.
Dwight - Genesis 15:13 and 16 God told Abraham that the iniquity of the Amorite was not yet complete, and that He would not judge them for another 400 years! During that time the Israelites were enslaved in Egypt, where God also waited 400 years to judge the Pharoah of Egypt and the Egyptians themselves. Hitler was wreaking havoc in Germany in the 1930's, yet God did not judge him right away. God gave all of mankind 1656 years after Adam was created, before He judged them with a world-wide flood. How long has he NOT judged the wicked regimes and dictators of North Korea, China, Iran, Russia, Syria, etc? Immediate judgment is NOT ALWAYS God's manner. You are mistaken.
Dwight - It's not just one Pope or even just the last Pope who gets judgment. The soul that sins - it shall die. You know how the judgment works. Each individual will be judged by his own works. Each Pope, each Catholic, each person in the Catholic church, will be judged by his own works. If there were some Popes, or even Catholics who were actually saved, which is possible- especially if they were deceived, then we know that they would not be a part of the murders and persecution of innocent people.
And I think your view falls apart because of this as well. The verse which says,
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." Now think through on this. We have to know Paul was talking about the mystery of iniquity being present working right now when he was writing.
Dwight - I said that very thing in a previous post, that the mystery of lawlessness was already at work. 2 Thess. 2:7 But that does not mean that the man of lawlessness could not have continued working lawlessness down through the centuries - and apparently even continue to do that until the time of Christ's 2nd coming. So the man of lawlessness ( the Catholic church) could have existed even as he was writing, but apparently it was not revealed (in its fullest sense) until later when Rome fell.
Then you would be saying Paul was accusing his fellow breathren Peter, James or John, James....or who would be considered pillars of the church....well that would mean he'd be stating they were wanting to exalt themselves as gods if he was saying the mystery of iniquity is working right now. If the mystery of iniquity was working and you've attributed church leaders of his era as ones leaning towards iniquity, if you get my meaning.
Dwight - That doesn't even make sense. None of the apostles were part of the Catholic church or any man-made church. When Paul labeled the Catholic church "the man of lawlessness", he was not referring to the body of Christ (which may have even included some saved Catholics). The apostles were the beginning of the body of Christ, not a man-made organization. If Paul was including the body of Christ as the man of lawlessness, then he would be condemning himself, because he was a part of the body of Christ.
