Understanding the nature of man and sin
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
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jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Adding to the bible. Gotcha!
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Here it is again. Notice that the Abrahamic Covenant is a generational covenant passed from father to son to grandson to great-grandsons, to...
...to a thousand generations of sons and their offspring:
The Abraham Covenant:
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen. 17:7.
The Isaac Covenant:
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
Gen. 17:21.
and
2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen. 26:2–4.
The Jacobian Covenant:
13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
Gen. 28:13–15.
Unless you are the seed of Abraham, you're asped out. Gentiles included.
God's covenant is with Abe and his seed unto a thousand generations of children. We're presently around 36 generations of Hebrews.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Every time you comment you prove to me you're unlearned, undisciplined, unknowledgeable in the Scripture and the things of God.
You post wrong things about the One True God, and you fear going into the Old Testament as Saul did to get biblical knowledge and understanding. I'm not your teacher. You really wasted my time. But the one thing I've learned in my two decades of posting on "Christian" websites and forums is that members all enjoy an equality of knowing Scripture and doctrine, that is, until members post and then they show they know Jesus and His Word, or their posts show they don't know Jesus or His Word.
You're thew latter.
Maybe civic can remember, but I was at another website I thought was Christian but was not. It was a place where many denominations were represented in its members. Oneness, Baptists, Mennonite, Methodist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Millerites, Mormons, etc., and many members took offense to the Scripture I posted that would refute the things they said. Then, when I joined CARM I remember telling a very good friend of mine, "there are some members here [CARM] that are very sharp and know their bible. I sometimes feel inadequate and unlearned like I know nothing."
These "feelings, nothing more than feelings..." caused me to spend more time reading and studying my bible, and here I am twenty years later and the depth of my knowledge and insight has increased exponentially. But a great deal has happened in my personal life, too, that contributed to my depth of knowledge and insight into God and the things of God. The more wisdom I gained, the more grief. The more knowledge the more my suffering. You see, there's a reason why I chose my username - well, actually, God chose it for me - and let me only say and I have a witness, my Baruch who can vouch for me in the following, but my life played out in similar fashion to the prophet Jeremiah. Everything Jeremiah suffered I suffered the same fate. I know my calling, my place in the body, and my spiritual gifts, and one thing I really hate are people - Christian and non-Christian, who say wrong things about the One True God.
And every time you writer such stuff you remind me you do not believe New covenant scripture and are stuck in the old covenant which is no longer in effect
I have no problem seeing why many would reject your doctrine. You reject the New covenant and possess the attitude of the Jews written about in Rom 9:30-32
Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Duh that is the bible
Romans 11:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Well; because of unbelief they (many Israelites)were broken off, and thou (gentiles who believe) standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
You obviously ignore the New Testament
The blood of bulls and goats can never take away sin
Hebrews 10:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
And it is Christ's blood which obtains redemption for us
Hebrews 9:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
You prove once again you do not believe New covenant scripture
tell me have you sacrificed an animal for your sins lately
SteveB
Well-known member
I'd say then I'm in a good position.
Rom 11:28 WEB Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake.
Gal 3:1-18 WEB 1 Foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you not to obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 I just want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now completed in the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain, if it is indeed in vain? 5 He therefore who supplies the Spirit to you and does miracles among you, does he do it by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith? 6 Even so, Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.” 7 Know therefore that those who are of faith are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Good News beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you all the nations will be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who doesn’t continue in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God is evident, for, “The righteous will live by faith.” 12 The law is not of faith, but, “The man who does them will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brothers, speaking of human terms, though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been confirmed, no one makes it void or adds to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his offspring. He doesn’t say, “To descendants”, as of many, but as of one, “To your offspring”, which is Christ. 17 Now I say this: A covenant confirmed beforehand by God in Christ, the law, which came four hundred thirty years after, does not annul, so as to make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:6-9 WEB 6 Even so, Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.” 7 Know therefore that those who are of faith are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Good News beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you all the nations will be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
Yeah! I'm most definitely in a VERY GOOD place.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Adding to the bible.
Nowhere does God call Gentiles Olive tree let alone "wild" Olive tree. But wild can mean disobedient Jews broken off and grafted in again. In order to be Olive tree, one must be the seed of Abraham and Gentiles are NOT the seed of Abraham.
You add to the bible. And your interpretation doesn't follow Scripture.
SteveB
Well-known member
Actually, he does call us a wild olive tree.
Rom 11:24 WEB For if you were cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more will these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
That said, we still read in Galatians 3,
Gal 3:6-9 WEB 6 Even so, Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.” 7 Know therefore that those who are of faith are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Good News beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you all the nations will be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
We then have
Isa 42:6 WEB“I, Yahweh, have called you in righteousness. I will hold your hand. I will keep you, and make you a covenant for the people, as a light for the nations,
Isa 49:6 WEBIndeed, he says, “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel. I will also give you as a light to the nations, that you may be my salvation to the end of the earth.”
Isa 60:3 WEBNations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising.
You are in denial
Romans 11:24 (NIV) — 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
The only people that are "good" are the seed of Abraham to whom the inheritance of God's promises was given.
Abraham ---> Isaac ---> and Jacob ---> the twelve tribes of Israel.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
There ya go. You said it.
"how much more readily will these NATURAL branches be grafted into THEIR OWN Olive tree."
If God were to graft any other tree branch to the Olive tree then the Olive tree has lost its purity and what will grow becomes a "hybrid" and this violates Scripture.
But you have a habit through your erroneous interpretation of doing that.
SteveB
Well-known member
You don't read much do you?
You really should learn.
YHVH is saving the goyim as a bride for His Son, Jesus.
Gal 3:2-29 WEB 2 I just want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now completed in the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain, if it is indeed in vain? 5 He therefore who supplies the Spirit to you and does miracles among you, does he do it by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith? 6 Even so, Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.” 7 Know therefore that those who are of faith are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Good News beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you all the nations will be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who doesn’t continue in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God is evident, for, “The righteous will live by faith.” 12 The law is not of faith, but, “The man who does them will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brothers, speaking of human terms, though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been confirmed, no one makes it void or adds to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his offspring. He doesn’t say, “To descendants”, as of many, but as of one, “To your offspring”, which is Christ. 17 Now I say this: A covenant confirmed beforehand by God in Christ, the law, which came four hundred thirty years after, does not annul, so as to make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by promise. 19 Then why is there the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise has been made. It was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not between one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could make alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, confined for the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 So that the law has become our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring and heirs according to promise.
I ask for your opinion...
Did GOD create a place of dissolute corruption and then fill it with innocents who inevitably become corrupted by that place themselves?
GOD can create no evil but by creating a corrupt cursed place and then creating innocents to live there until they are corrupted by the evil in that place certainly seems like HE creates, forms, molds their sinfulness in a way much different from HIS creating them in a neutral society without any sinfulness tempting them...
What is so different from saying that HE had them created in Adam's sin when it amounts to the same thing??
HE either put us into Adam's sin where our sin is inevitable or HE put us under HIS curse into a cursed corrupt place where our sin is inevitable...you've solved nothing by this nicety of how GOD made us all sinners by HIS will (where HE created us) not allowing us to sin by our will by choosing to rebel against HIM.
There is no reason to out us under the curse Adam and Eve got until we chose to sin the sin that they sinned!
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
I'm not sure what you're saying here, but this is my opinion.
God deliberately allowed the serpent into the garden so that Adam & Eve would sin. Once that happened, the human race was forever changed such that we are born sinners. Why would God do this? To make His righteousness, mercy, love and wrath against unrighteousness known to us, so that we would know Him more fully.
Romans 11:24 (NIV) — 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
You ignored two fact
1 The gentiles were from a wild olive tree which you denied
2 The Jews were at this time not in the olive tree
God did not create a place of dissolute corruption. That was a result of man's fall
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Verse 23...WHO was kept under the Law until faith (the Holy Spirit of Promise) appeared?
Answer: The children of Israel.
Since Gentiles were never under the Law then this disqualifies them as being inheritors of the Abrahamic Promises. in verse 29.
The whole discourse in these verses by Saul is that as rabbi he is NOT adding Gentiles to the Hebrew covenants nor as Pharisee, he is NOT saying that "if you are Christ's (Gentile) that you are Abraham's seed." because Saul knows Scripture cannot be broken, or changed or added to or subtracted from, and what he IS addressing in this chapter are Jewish Christians who have become born-again and are Christ's what is their standing in the Abrahamic Covenant by being a Christ-follower and believer?
He says it in verse 29.
If you, Jewish Christian, belong to your Messiah, Jesus Christ, you are STILL Abraham's offspring and heirs according to THAT Promise given to Abraham and HIS SEED.
Non-Hebrew Gentiles do not come from Abraham's loins.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
No, YOU ARE SAYING Gentiles are the "wild" Olive tree mentioned. But there is no precedence. There is no Scripture or passage in the Old Testament where God calls Gentiles along with Israel an Olive tree, let alone, a "wild" Olive tree. Your interpretation is in error. You fail to respect the type and shadow of the Old Testament. And as I said which is true, if there is no Old Testament precedence, then there is no New Testament reality.
IF you were to find a passage in the Old Testament that Gentiles are called of God an Olive tree or even a "wild" Olive tree then you have an argument, but void of this designation in the OT makes your NT interpretation of the text in Romans a lie.
