Understanding the nature of man and sin

[SteveB]

Verse 23...WHO was kept under the Law until faith (the Holy Spirit of Promise) appeared?

Wow!
So you build the entire narrative of your belief on a single verse?
No wonder you're incoherent.

Answer: The children of Israel.

Since Gentiles were never under the Law then this disqualifies them as being inheritors of the Abrahamic Promises. in verse 29.

The whole discourse in these verses by Saul is that as rabbi he is NOT adding Gentiles to the Hebrew covenants nor as Pharisee, he is NOT saying that "if you are Christ's (Gentile) that you are Abraham's seed." because Saul knows Scripture cannot be broken, or changed or added to or subtracted from, and what he IS addressing in this chapter are Jewish Christians who have become born-again and are Christ's what is their standing in the Abrahamic Covenant by being a Christ-follower and believer?

He says it in verse 29.

If you, Jewish Christian, belong to your Messiah, Jesus Christ, you are STILL Abraham's offspring and heirs according to THAT Promise given to Abraham and HIS SEED.

Non-Hebrew Gentiles do not come from Abraham's loins.

And here it is.
You're adding a word to the verse.
The curious thing about the Galatians is....
They were Gentiles.
It's exactly why Paul and Peter got in a tif over adherence to the law when the brothers from Jerusalem came, and what drove the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.



Galatians 3:29
ABP ει δε And if υμείς you χριστού are of Christ, άρα then του [2 of the Αβραάμ 4 of Abraham σπέρμα 3 seed εστέ 1 you are], και and κατ΄ [2 according to επαγγελίαν 3 promise κληρονόμοι 1 heirs].

BBE And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and yours is the heritage by the right of God's undertaking given to Abraham.

BIB εἰ (If) δὲ (now) ὑμεῖς (you are) Χριστοῦ (Christ’s), ἄρα (then) τοῦ (-) Ἀβραὰμ (Abraham’s) σπέρμα (seed) ἐστέ (you are), κατ’ (according to) ἐπαγγελίαν (the promise) κληρονόμοι (heirs).

Bishops If [ye be] Christes, then are ye Abrahams seede, and heyres accordyng to the promise.

BLB Now if you are of Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, heirs according to the promise.

BSB And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Coverdale Yf ye be Christes, the are ye Abrahas sede and heyres acordynge to the promes.

Darby but if *ye* are of Christ, then ye are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

DRC And if you be Christ's, then are you the seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise.

EasyEnglish And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s grandchildren. So, you will receive everything that God promised to Abraham. note

Geneva And if ye be Christes, then are ye Abrahams seede, and heires by promes.

HNV If you are Messiah’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring and heirs according to promise.

ISV And if you belong to the Messiah, then you are Abraham’s descendants indeed, and heirs according to the promise.

JMNT Now since you folks belong to Christ (or: have [the] Anointing as your source and origin; or: So since you people have the qualities and character of Christ, and [are] that which is Christ), you are straightway and consequently Abraham's Seed: heirs (possessors and enjoyers of the distributed allotment), down from, corresponding to and in the sphere of Promise!

KJV And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

KJVLite And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Matthew Yf ye be Christes, then are ye Abrahams seede and heyres by promes.

MKJV1962 And if you [are] Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

NET And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise.

NHEB If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring and heirs according to promise.

OGNT εἰ ei iy if δὲ de ðe and ὑμεῖς hymeis iymiys you *Χριστοῦ Christou khriystu Christ, ἄρα ara ara therefore τοῦ tou tu the *Ἀβραὰμ Abraam avraam Abraham σπέρμα sperma sperma seed ἐστέ este este you are, κατ᾽ kat kat according to ἐπαγγελίαν epangelian epanggeliyan promise κληρονόμοι klēronomoi kliyronomiy heirs.¶

OGNTa εἰ δὲ ὑμεῖς Χριστοῦ, ἄρα τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ σπέρμα ἐστέ, κατ᾽ ἐπαγγελίαν κληρονόμοι.¶

OGNTbe ⚐⊕εἰ δὲ ⊕ὑμεῖς Χριστοῦ, ⚐ἄρα ⊕τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ σπέρμα ἐστέ, ⚐⊕κατ᾽ ἐπαγγελίαν ⊕κληρονόμοι.¶
εἰIf δὲnow ὑμεῖςyou [are] ΧριστοῦChrist’s,
Now if you [are] of Christ,
And if you belong to Christ,
ἄραthen τοῦ- ἈβραὰμAbraham’s σπέρμαseed ἐστέyou are,
then you are Abraham’s seed,
then you are Abraham᾽s seed
κατ᾽according to ἐπαγγελίαν[the] promise κληρονόμοιheirs.
heirs according to [the] promise.
[and] heirs according to [the] promise.
OGNTk ει δε υμειϲ χ̅υ̅, αρα του αβρααμ ϲπερμα εϲτε, κατ επαγγελιαν κληρονομοι.¶

OGNTla
°° 3:29.w1-w4@3:29.w5-w12
3:29.w1
conjunctionw1
head
εἰ
if3:29.w2
conjunctionw2
head
δὲ
and3:29.w3
subjectw3
head
ὑμεῖς
you3:29.w4
adjunctw4
head
Χριστοῦ
Christ
° 3:29.w5-w12
3:29.w5
conjunctionw5
head
ἄρα
therefore3:29.w6-w8
qualifier
complement3:29.w6-w7w6
specifier
τοῦ
thew7
head
Ἀβραὰμ
Abrahamw8
head
σπέρμα
seed3:29.w9
predicatorw9
head
ἐστέ
you are3:29.w10-w12
relator
complement3:29.w10-w11w10
specifier
κατ᾽
according tow11
head
ἐπαγγελίαν
promisew12
head
κληρονόμοι
heirs
OGNTnet And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise.
°⊕εἰ δὲ ⊕ὑμεῖς Χριστοῦ,
°ἄρα ⊕τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ σπέρμα ἐστέ,
°°°⊕κατ᾽ ἐπαγγελίαν ⊕κληρονόμοι.¶

RNKJV And if ye be the Messiah's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

SLT And if ye of Christ, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

T4T Furthermore, since you belong to Christ, you are like Abraham’s descendants because you trust God as Abraham did, and you will possess/receive all that God has promised [MET].

Tanakh-1917

Vulgate si autem vos Christi ergo Abrahae semen estis secundum promissionem heredes

WEB If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring and heirs according to promise.

Wycliffe And if ye ben oon in Jhesu Crist, thanne ye ben the seed of Abraham, and eiris bi biheest.

Wycliffe-Modern And if ye be one in Jesus Christ, then ye be the seed of Abraham, and heirs by promise.

YLT and if ye are of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise--heirs.

 

[TomL]

No, YOU ARE SAYING Gentiles are the "wild" Olive tree mentioned. But there is no precedence. There is no Scripture or passage in the Old Testament where God calls Gentiles along with Israel an Olive tree, let alone, a "wild" Olive tree. Your interpretation is in error. You fail to respect the type and shadow of the Old Testament. And as I said which is true, if there is no Old Testament precedence, then there is no New Testament reality.

IF you were to find a passage in the Old Testament that Gentiles are called of God an Olive tree or even a "wild" Olive tree then you have an argument, but void of this designation in the OT makes your NT interpretation of the text in Romans a lie.

Scripture which you reject is the precedence

Romans 11:24 (NIV) — 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

You ignored two facts

1 The gentiles were from a wild olive tree which you denied

2 The Jews were at this time not in the olive tree

 

[SteveB]

The only people that are "good" are the seed of Abraham to whom the inheritance of God's promises was given.

Abraham ---> Isaac ---> and Jacob ---> the twelve tribes of Israel.

Wow...
Definitely not reading scripture.

Jer 17:9 WEB The heart is deceitful above all things and it is exceedingly corrupt. Who can know it?

Psa 14:1-3 WEBThe fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt. They have done abominable deeds. There is no one who does good. Yahweh looked down from heaven on the children of men, to see if there were any who understood, who sought after God. They have all gone aside. They have together become corrupt. There is no one who does good, no, not one.

Psa 53:1-3 WEBThe fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity. There is no one who does good. God looks down from heaven on the children of men, to see if there are any who understood, who seek after God. Every one of them has gone back. They have become filthy together. There is no one who does good, no, not one.

Ecc 7:20 WEBSurely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and doesn’t sin.

Who were David and Solomon and YHVH referring to?

 

[TomL]

The only people that are "good" are the seed of Abraham to whom the inheritance of God's promises was given.

Abraham ---> Isaac ---> and Jacob ---> the twelve tribes of Israel.

It must really gall you so many were cutoff and the gentiles grafted in

 

[jeremiah1five]

Wow!
So you build the entire narrative of your belief on a single verse?
No wonder you're incoherent.

No. But in these verses Saul is writing to Jewish Christians who were rightly concerned as to their status in the Abrahamic Covenant by being followers of Christ. That's why after his comments about being under the Law he says, "if you are Christ's, you are STILL Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise given to Abraham.

And here it is.
You're adding a word to the verse.
The curious thing about the Galatians is....
They were Gentiles.
It's exactly why Paul and Peter got in a tif over adherence to the law when the brothers from Jerusalem came, and what drove the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.

Matthew to Revelation is Jewish Christians writing to and for Jews and Jewish Christians.

This idea Saul wrote to Gentiles is just another false Constantinian Gentile belief that has for 1900 years misled many true Christians.
Galatians is written to Jewish Christians. He may mention a concern about Gentile proselytes or God Fearers, but the Word of God is all written to God's covenant people the Jews.

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Gal. 1:3–5.

The "gave Himself for OUR sins" ties in nicely with the Old Testament Hebrew covenants, especially the Mosaic Covenant in which the animal sacrifices were performed yearly for the sins of the Jewish people also known as the Children of Israel. The sacrifice under the Law was for the Children of Israel and since Christ did not come to destroy the Law or change it by instituting anything new but fulfilled what was already written, as the Lamb of God and taking the place of the animal sacrifice under the Law and fulfilling the Law His death and resurrection was for the Children of Israel but instead of yearly is now forever:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal. 4:3–5.

And the words "according to the will of God OUR FATHER" is referring to the role of God as the Father of the Hebrew people.

It is a Hebrew covenant, Christ was prophesied to and for the Hebrew people, Christ was "manifest" (appeared) to and for the Hebrew people, lived, taught the Jews from out of their Law, died on a cross for the sins of the Jewish people. Jesus' death occurred during the Passover and as was instituted by Moses while the children of Israel were in bondage it served to prefigure the state of the children of Israel's bondage and slavery to sin that Christ died to redeem and deliver the children of Israel from their sins. Scripture cannot be broken. God has covenant with the Hebrew people going as far back as Abraham and the sending of the Lamb of God was to atone for the sins of the Hebrew people under the Law.

Christ did not change a thing and as the animal sacrifice under the Law was made to atone yearly for the sins of the Hebrew people, so, too, did Christ's sacrifice atone for the sins of the Hebrew people.
Scripture cannot be broken.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Scripture which you reject is the precedence

Romans 11:24 (NIV) — 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

You ignored two facts

1 The gentiles were from a wild olive tree which you denied

2 The Jews were at this time not in the olive tree

There is no passage in the Old Testament of God calling Gentiles an Olive tree let alone a "wild" Olive tree. You are adding to the bible what is not there.
You are soooo very blind. You can't prove from Old Testament Scripture Gentiles being called by God an Olive tree or a "wild" Olive tree but that doesn't matter. You're going to be stiff-necked and contradict God's Word which cannot be broken and continue to interpret Romans 11 by inserting Gentiles in an otherwise Jewish example.
Thank God He opened my eyes.

I don't add to the bible. God calls Israel an Olive tree and so we know what Saul is saying about disobedient Jews being broken off of their own Olive tree - which, incidentally the Olive tree is a symbol of National Israel - but you can't find a Scripture of God calling Gentiles an Olive tree but that doesn't matter to you. You're still going to make the bible support your interpretation rather than your interpretation being support by Scripture.
Just more Gentile heresy.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Wow...
Definitely not reading scripture.

Jer 17:9 WEB The heart is deceitful above all things and it is exceedingly corrupt. Who can know it?

Only God can know it, and believers with the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them.

Psa 14:1-3 WEBThe fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt. They have done abominable deeds. There is no one who does good. Yahweh looked down from heaven on the children of men, to see if there were any who understood, who sought after God. They have all gone aside. They have together become corrupt. There is no one who does good, no, not one.

This does not mean there is no God as to His existence, but rather is a statement by the fool that There is a God but that He will not do what He said He would do.

Psa 53:1-3 WEBThe fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity. There is no one who does good. God looks down from heaven on the children of men, to see if there are any who understood, who seek after God. Every one of them has gone back. They have become filthy together. There is no one who does good, no, not one.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

Just another way of saying sin comes from sinned, which is the reason why Adam sinned. He was a sinner. Sin comes from sinner.

Ecc 7:20 WEBSurely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and doesn’t sin.

Who were David and Solomon and YHVH referring to?

From God's eternal perspective I am holy, righteous, and sinless in Christ.
From my perspective in time, I am a sinner in need of a Savior.
Both positions are true.

 

[jeremiah1five]

It must really gall you so many were cutoff and the gentiles grafted in

Where does it say in the Old Testament God calling Gentiles an Olive tree let alone a "wild" Olive tree?
There is nothing in Saul's statements that Gentiles are "wild" Olive tree because there is nothing in the Old Testament saying they are.
Type and shadow. Scripture cannot be broken.

 

[TomL]

Where does it say in the Old Testament God calling Gentiles an Olive tree let alone a "wild" Olive tree?
There is nothing in Saul's statements that Gentiles are "wild" Olive tree because there is nothing in the Old Testament saying they are.
Type and shadow. Scripture cannot be broken.

New testament. The old is obsolete, remember?


Hebrews 8:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.


Romans 11:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[TomL]

There is no passage in the Old Testament of God calling Gentiles an Olive tree let alone a "wild" Olive tree. You are adding to the bible what is not there.
You are soooo very blind. You can't prove from Old Testament Scripture Gentiles being called by God an Olive tree or a "wild" Olive tree but that doesn't matter. You're going to be stiff-necked and contradict God's Word which cannot be broken and continue to interpret Romans 11 by inserting Gentiles in an otherwise Jewish example.
Thank God He opened my eyes.

I don't add to the bible. God calls Israel an Olive tree and so we know what Saul is saying about disobedient Jews being broken off of their own Olive tree - which, incidentally the Olive tree is a symbol of National Israel - but you can't find a Scripture of God calling Gentiles an Olive tree but that doesn't matter to you. You're still going to make the bible support your interpretation rather than your interpretation being support by Scripture.
Just more Gentile heresy.

New testament

Scripture which you reject is the precedence

Romans 11:24 (NIV) — 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

You ignored two facts

1 The gentiles were from a wild olive tree which you denied

2 The Jews were at this time not in the olive tree

 

[SteveB]

No. But in these verses Saul is writing to Jewish Christians who were rightly concerned as to their status in the Abrahamic Covenant by being followers of Christ.

actually, they were Galatians. This was a central region of Turkiye.

That's why after his comments about being under the Law he says, "if you are Christ's, you are STILL Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise given to Abraham.

yep. A promise of YHVH to all who trust in Jesus.

Matthew to Revelation is Jewish Christians writing to and for Jews and Jewish Christians.

Goyim are the predominant members of the church of Jesus.

This idea Saul wrote to Gentiles is just another false Constantinian Gentile belief that has for 1900 years misled many true Christians.

sounds like you're confused about the body of Jesus.
You really should read Revelation 2-3.
These are 7 gentile churches which predate the catholic church.
I am not, nor have I ever been a catholic.
So, you can either come to Jesus and learn the truth or continue to wander around in your delusions.

Galatians is written to Jewish Christians.

nope. It was written to the churches in a Gentile country. Among whom were SOME Jewish people.

He may mention a concern about Gentile proselytes or God Fearers, but the Word of God is all written to God's covenant people the Jews.

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Gal. 1:3–5.

Yep! Pretty awesome that YHVH welcomes goyim into the household of faith.


Eph 2:11-22 WEB 11 Therefore remember that once you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “uncircumcision” by that which is called “circumcision” (in the flesh, made by hands), 12 that you were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in his flesh the hostility, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man of the two, making peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, having killed the hostility through it. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far off and to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God, 20 being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone; 21 in whom the whole building, fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

The "gave Himself for OUR sins"

Why yes! Yes He does.
goyim included.

Eph 2:11-14 WEB 11 Therefore remember that once you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “uncircumcision” by that which is called “circumcision” (in the flesh, made by hands), 12 that you were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of separation,

ties in nicely with the Old Testament Hebrew covenants, especially the Mosaic Covenant in which the animal sacrifices were performed yearly for the sins of the Jewish people also known as the Children of Israel.

So, Jesus isn't the better sacrifice to end all sacrifices for sin?

The sacrifice under the Law was for the Children of Israel and since Christ did not come to destroy the Law or change it by instituting anything new but fulfilled what was already written, as the Lamb of God and taking the place of the animal sacrifice under the Law and fulfilling the Law His death and resurrection was for the Children of Israel but instead of yearly is now forever:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal. 4:3–5.

And the words "according to the will of God OUR FATHER" is referring to the role of God as the Father of the Hebrew people.

It is a Hebrew covenant, Christ was prophesied to and for the Hebrew people, Christ was "manifest" (appeared) to and for the Hebrew people, lived, taught the Jews from out of their Law, died on a cross for the sins of the Jewish people. Jesus' death occurred during the Passover and as was instituted by Moses while the children of Israel were in bondage it served to prefigure the state of the children of Israel's bondage and slavery to sin that Christ died to redeem and deliver the children of Israel from their sins. Scripture cannot be broken. God has covenant with the Hebrew people going as far back as Abraham and the sending of the Lamb of God was to atone for the sins of the Hebrew people under the Law.

Christ did not change a thing and as the animal sacrifice under the Law was made to atone yearly for the sins of the Hebrew people, so, too, did Christ's sacrifice atone for the sins of the Hebrew people.
Scripture cannot be broken.

No. It can't be broken, yet you continue to reject that YHVH welcomes goyim into his Kingdom through Jesus Christ.


Eph 2:11-22 WEB 11 Therefore remember that once you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “uncircumcision” by that which is called “circumcision” (in the flesh, made by hands), 12 that you were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in his flesh the hostility, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man of the two, making peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, having killed the hostility through it. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far off and to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God, 20 being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone; 21 in whom the whole building, fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

 

[SteveB]

Only God can know it, and believers with the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them.

This does not mean there is no God as to His existence, but rather is a statement by the fool that There is a God but that He will not do what He said He would do.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

Just another way of saying sin comes from sinned, which is the reason why Adam sinned. He was a sinner. Sin comes from sinner.

From God's eternal perspective I am holy, righteous, and sinless in Christ.
From my perspective in time, I am a sinner in need of a Savior.
Both positions are true.

Your perspective....

I'd say that sums up the situation rather concisely.

 

[TomL]

No. It can't be broken, yet you continue to reject that YHVH welcomes goyim into his Kingdom through Jesus Christ.


Eph 2:11-22 WEB 11 Therefore remember that once you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “uncircumcision” by that which is called “circumcision” (in the flesh, made by hands), 12 that you were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in his flesh the hostility, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man of the two, making peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, having killed the hostility through it. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far off and to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God, 20 being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone; 21 in whom the whole building, fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

Yes he rejects the will of YHWH and his Christ

 

[TedT]

God deliberately allowed the serpent into the garden so that Adam & Eve would sin. Once that happened, the human race was forever changed such that we are born sinners. Why would God do this? To make His righteousness, mercy, love and wrath against unrighteousness known to us, so that we would know Him more fully.

The following implications of this belief are hard to accept:

1. That GOD cannot only bring HIS bride, HIS church, to a full knowledge of HIM without the use of evil.

We must accept the necessary but unproven presupposition that it is impossible for GOD to perfect HIS creatures HIMSELF, that HE needs the presence of evil that HE abhors in order to bring HIS creation to its highest potential. In other words we must accept, for example, that in GOD’S world one has to first be sick in order to be healthy, or sinful in order to be faultless.

2. It implies that the damnation of millions that is caused by this method to teach us to understand HIM fully is a necessity...but how does the damnation of millions makes us more appreciative / perfect in understanding than would be the sinfulness and damnation of just one or two, Adam and Eve of even just Satan, the serpent?

Does a billion suffering have a more edifying effect than a mere million? Or even just one single person?

3. This doctrine ignores the fact that one part of HIS creation, the holy and elect angels, did not need to be created under sin to suffer and die to fully understand HIM. If not them, why us? Was HE so angry at at the fall of Adam and Eve (but not the serpent) that HE forgot how to create perfect people who did not need to sin to come to a full understanding of HIM?

4. This doctrine ignores the fact that Satan and his reprobate angels chose sin from a position of pre-sin moral innocence and thus their higher understanding of HIM did nothing at all to alleviate their degradation because they merely held the truth in unrighteousness, Romans 1:18-end.

Why did they not need to be born into sin to learn this truth they had come to reject?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

The following implications of this belief hard to accept:

1. That GOD cannot only bring HIS bride, HIS church, to a full knowledge of HIM without the use of evil.

We must accept the necessary but unproven presupposition that it is impossible for GOD to perfect HIS creatures HIMSELF, that HE needs the presence of evil that HE abhors in order to bring HIS creation to its highest potential. In other words we must accept, for example, that in GOD’S world one has to first be sick in order to be healthy, or sinful in order to be faultless.

2. It implies that the damnation of millions that is caused by this method to teach us to understand HIM fully is a necessity...but how does the damnation of millions makes us more appreciative / perfect in understanding than would be the sinfulness and damnation of just one or two, Adam and Eve of even just Satan, the serpent?

Does a billion suffering have a more edifying effect than a mere million? Or even just one single person?

3. This doctrine ignores the fact that one part of HIS creation, the holy and elect angels, did not need to be created under sin to suffer and die to fully understand HIM. If not them, why us? Was HE so angry at at the fall of Adam and Eve (but not the serpent) that HE forgot how to create perfect people who did not need to sin to come to a full understanding of HIM?

4. This doctrine ignores the fact that Satan and his reprobate angels chose sin from a position of pre-sin moral innocence and thus their higher understanding of HIM did nothing at all to alleviate their degradation because they merely held the truth in unrighteousness, Romans 1:18-end.

Why did they not need to be born into sin to learn this truth they had come to reject?

I don't find it hard to accept. Everything is God's creation, and He can do with it whatever He deems fit. But I can see why it is hard for most people to accept.

 

[TedT]

God did not create a place of dissolute corruption. That was a result of man's fall

Tt tt... that HE created Adam and Eve in a perfect garden does NOT necessitate that HE forced by HIS will that HIS human society must be created within the degradation and corruption (your words) caused by Adam and Eve!

We are born into their sinfulness or corruption ONLY by HIS will, not by any fault found in us - a doctrine that goes against HIS holy and loving righteousness and benevolence.

 

[TedT]

I don't find it hard to accept. Everything is God's creation, and He can do with it whatever He deems fit. But I can see why it is hard for most people to accept.

Of course HE can - but this cannot be made to fit with HIS loving, righteous and just nature...

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Of course HE can - but this cannot be made to fit with HIS loving, righteous and just nature...

I think it fits his loving nature perfectly. I'm not saying you have to look at it my way, just that it makes perfect sense to me.

 

[TomL]

Tt tt... that HE created Adam and Eve in a perfect garden does NOT necessitate that HE forced by HIS will that HIS human society must be created within the degradation and corruption (your words) caused by Adam and Eve!

Never stated it did

We are born into their sinfulness or corruption ONLY by HIS will, not by any fault found in us - a doctrine that goes against HIS holy and loving righteousness and benevolence.

Um we are not born guilty

 

[jeremiah1five]

New testament. The old is obsolete, remember?


Hebrews 8:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.


Romans 11:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Great! Now I don't have to have no other gods before me. Free at last! Free at last! Thank Tom almighty I am free at last!