Understanding the nature of man and sin

[TomL]

Great! Now I don't have to have no other gods before me. Free at last! Free at last! Thank Tom almighty I am free at last!

Um Tom did not write

Hebrews 8:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.


Romans 11:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[TedT]

Um we are not born guilty

I know but the state of being born into a corrupt and degrading LIFE is exactly the same as being born into sin - the end result is inevitably equal !!

I'm sorry I can't always speak to a nicety to the quirks of your theology that you use to insulate yourself from the fact that your theology has the same result as the born into sin theology that your reject!!!

GOD creating sinners by putting them into Adam's sin or by putting them into a world corrupted and (dare I say) ruled by sin BY HIS WILL NOT THEIRS is anathema!

 

[TomL]

I know but the state of being born into a corrupt and degrading LIFE is exactly the same as being born into sin - the end result is inevitably equal !!

I'm sorry I can't always speak to a nicety to the quirks of your theology that you use to insulate yourself from the fact that your theology has the same result as the born into sin theology that your reject!!!

GOD creating sinners by putting them into Adam's sin or by putting them into a world corrupted and (dare I say) ruled by sin BY HIS WILL NOT THEIRS is anathema!

So you have a third option?

other than

1 the unbiblical idea man is born guilty of Adams sin

2 what you call a quirk which was the view of the early church fathers and the great mass of those who reject the assumption of Adam's guilt

 

[TedT]

So you have a third option?

A person can only become a sinner by their free will choice to rebuke YHWH as a false god and a liar OR by rebelling against HIS commands about how to comport ourselves in our lives if one does accept HIM as their GOD and Saviour.

No sin ever happened by the will of GOD by any means whatsoever but only by the free will of the sinner. No one comes under the curse and degradation of sin except by their free will choice to be a sinner sin HIS eyes. Our being under the consequences of sin, ie, suffering and death, from conception onward, proves we made the choice to be a sinners before our conception.

The idea we inherit sin from Adam or that we live lives under the cures of Adam if not his sin is forced upon our beliefs by knowing we are conceived in sin as proven by the death and suffering of infants in the womb, the death and suffering that is the wages for sin, not a mere consequence of life on earth.

There is absolutely no reason to reject our pre-earth existence and fall except that we have chosen to be fully committed to the current theological favourite idea that we are created (as sinners or under the effects of sin) on earth...in other words, due to an eisegetic commitment to only reading and understanding scripture from the point of view of our being created on earth.

 

[TomL]

A person can only become a sinner by their free will choice to rebuke YHWH as a false god and a liar OR by rebelling against HIS commands about how to comport ourselves in our lives if one does accept HIM as their GOD and Saviour.

No sin ever happened by the will of GOD by any means whatsoever but only by the free will of the sinner. No one comes under the curse and degradation of sin except by their free will choice to be a sinner sin HIS eyes. Our being under the consequences of sin, ie, suffering and death, from conception onward, proves we made the choice to be a sinners before our conception.

The idea we inherit sin from Adam or that we live lives under the cures of Adam if not his sin is forced upon our beliefs by knowing we are conceived in sin as proven by the death and suffering of infants in the womb, the death and suffering that is the wages for sin, not a mere consequence of life on earth.

There is absolutely no reason to reject our pre-earth existence and fall except that we have chosen to be fully committed to the current theological favourite idea that we are created (as sinners or under the effects of sin) on earth...in other words, due to an eisegetic commitment to only reading and understanding scripture from the point of view of our being created on earth.

Pre earth existence?

Not found anywhere in the bible.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

A person can only become a sinner by their free will choice to rebuke YHWH as a false god and a liar OR by rebelling against HIS commands about how to comport ourselves in our lives if one does accept HIM as their GOD and Saviour.

No sin ever happened by the will of GOD by any means whatsoever but only by the free will of the sinner. No one comes under the curse and degradation of sin except by their free will choice to be a sinner sin HIS eyes. Our being under the consequences of sin, ie, suffering and death, from conception onward, proves we made the choice to be a sinners before our conception.

The idea we inherit sin from Adam or that we live lives under the cures of Adam if not his sin is forced upon our beliefs by knowing we are conceived in sin as proven by the death and suffering of infants in the womb, the death and suffering that is the wages for sin, not a mere consequence of life on earth.

There is absolutely no reason to reject our pre-earth existence and fall except that we have chosen to be fully committed to the current theological favourite idea that we are created (as sinners or under the effects of sin) on earth...in other words, due to an eisegetic commitment to only reading and understanding scripture from the point of view of our being created on earth.

Genesis 50:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Um Tom did not write

Hebrews 8:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.


Romans 11:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Really? Is the Law of Moses "obsolete"?

Why are nine commands of the Moral Law of Moses commanded of believers in the New Covenant writings?

Biblical Christians did not believe or teach the Law of Moses was obsolete. Teaching the Law of Moses is obsolete is a Gentile heresy that is not supported in the NT. As I said, Gentiles do not practice biblical Christianity. They (and you) practice a "form of godliness but deny the power thereof" and have their own religion as I said above. It is a religion that has no Hebrew roots.

 

[TomL]

Really? Is the Law of Moses "obsolete"?

Why are nine commands of the Moral Law of Moses commanded of believers in the New Covenant writings?

Biblical Christians did not believe or teach the Law of Moses was obsolete. Teaching the Law of Moses is obsolete is a Gentile heresy that is not supported in the NT. As I said, Gentiles do not practice biblical Christianity. They (and you) practice a "form of godliness but deny the power thereof" and have their own religion as I said above. It is a religion that has no Hebrew roots.

The nine laws are repeated because we are to obey them. Why were others not repeated

Have you made atonement for your sins by sacrificing an animal

Once again Tom did not write

Um Tom did not write

Hebrews 8:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.


Romans 11:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Galatians 5:1–4 (KJV 1900) — 1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[TomL]

Genesis 50:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

James 1:13–14 (KJV 1900) — 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

1 John 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The nine laws are repeated because we are to obey them. Why were others not repeated

Have you made atonement for your sins by sacrificing an animal

Once again Tom did not write

Um Tom did not write

Hebrews 8:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.


Romans 11:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Galatians 5:1–4 (KJV 1900) — 1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[TomL]

The nine laws are repeated because we are to obey them. Why were others not repeated

Have you made atonement for your sins by sacrificing an animal

Once again Tom did not write

Um Tom did not write

Hebrews 8:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.


Romans 11:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Galatians 5:1–4 (KJV 1900) — 1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you,
whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[TedT]

Pre earth existence?

Not found anywhere in the bible.

Sure it is...folk just interpret the hints and references to it eisegetically in any other way to support their earlier acceptance of our 'creation on earth' theory. How about three places outside of the over three dozen I could have chosen from...

Job 38:7
Berean Standard Bible
...while the morning stars sang together and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy? tells us us that we ALL were there and saw the creation of the physical universe and sang HIS praise. The world all really is in the text but is easily explained away because we all know that we are created on earth, right, so it must mean something else?

Colossians 1:23 ...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

The phrase that HAS BEEN PROCLAIMED to every creature under heaven uses a past tense that means "past and finished but is repeated into the future"...how about that? How does EVERY creature having heard the gospel fit with the idea that each person is created on earth at conception or birth and humans HAVE NOT HEARD until they are young children or even not at all???

I also know that all can refer only to all those created at this time, excluding a later creation, but it reads better the other way for me...

Matt 13: 36 Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
It seems to need a bit of repetition so I'll mention once again that an explanation of a metaphor explains nothing if it merely adds to or extends the metaphor. In other words, the explanation must tell us the meaning of the words hidden by the metaphor...

37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

It is clearly written that humans are sown here into mankind, not created, because the devil sows also and he cannot create. To sow therefore must have the non-metaphorical, open meaning of "to remove something from a place of storage to scatter it into a place of growth."

It also says clearly that the meaning of seed is that they are people, the sons of the kingdom or the sons of the evil one - two groups of people separated into their groups before they are sown into this world.

Sown and sons of are the real words used to explain the truth of the metaphor to us. If this is rejected then must we reject the meaning about the end of the world and the angels reaping the harvest also since they imply the fate of real people?

Verses related to this parable are Rev 12:4-9 and the word return in Ps 9:17 which tell us where we were before we were sown into this world.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The nine laws are repeated because we are to obey them. Why were others not repeated

Have you made atonement for your sins by sacrificing an animal

Once again Tom did not write

Um Tom did not write

Hebrews 8:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.


Romans 11:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Galatians 5:1–4 (KJV 1900) — 1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you,
whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

It wasn't necessary because the first Christians were Jewish, and no one needed to tell them anything about obedience to the Law of Moses of which they were still in covenant with God.
When Jews began to become born-again natural Olive tree Israel became spiritual Olive tree Israel.

 

[TomL]

It wasn't necessary because the first Christians were Jewish, and no one needed to tell them anything about obedience to the Law of Moses of which they were still in covenant with God.
When Jews began to become born-again natural Olive tree Israel became spiritual Olive tree Israel.

Really

Hebrews 7:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 10:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Romans 3:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 3:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Really

Hebrews 7:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 10:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Romans 3:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 3:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

There is just no hope for you.

 

[TomL]

There is just no hope for you.

Translation you have no answer for the scriptures quoted

Hebrews 7:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 10:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Romans 3:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 3:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Translation you have no answer for the scriptures quoted

Hebrews 7:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 10:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Romans 3:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 3:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Oh, I've answered you many times and many times you posted Ephesians and Romans and failed to answer me.
So, I'm not going to waste any more time with you. Keep your false Constantinian Gentile theology. We'll see on the last day.

 

[TomL]

Oh, I've answered you many times and many times you posted Ephesians and Romans and failed to answer me.
So, I'm not going to waste any more time with you. Keep your false Constantinian Gentile theology. We'll see on the last day.

Um "your answer" was to deny the New Testament.

I hate to break it to you, but few here will accept that as an answer


Hebrews 7:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 10:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Romans 3:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 3:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Um "your answer" was to deny the New Testament.

I hate to break it to you, but few here will accept that as an answer


Hebrews 7:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 10:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Romans 3:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 3:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Jesus said, Scripture cannot be broken.

And your interpretation attempts to break Scripture, but it cannot be broken by your false teaching and Gentile biased interpretation of the Hebrew Scripture.

Why is it you must quote Saul's letters when asked to show me in Genesis 17 the Abraham covenant includes non-Hebrew Gentiles???

Why can't you show me in Genesis when and where the Abraham covenant was made to prove non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Abraham covenant?
That's because you can't.

Instead, you elevate Saul to God status with the power and authority to change Yahweh's covenants with the Hebrew people to include non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Abraham covenants.
Imagine that. Man has the Deific power and authority to change Yahweh's covenants with the Hebrew people to now include non-Hebrew Gentiles.
Saul is a false god. He was only a messenger, not a god with power or authority to change Yahweh's covenants with the Hebrew people.

ALL PRAISE AND WORSHIP TO SAUL, THE GOD AND APOSTLE TO THE GENTILES!!!

HALLELU-SAUL!
HALLELU-SAUL!
HALLELU-SAUL!

Er, I mean, PAUL!

 

[TomL]

Jesus said, Scripture cannot be broken.

And your interpretation attempts to break Scripture, but it cannot be broken by your false teaching and Gentile biased interpretation of the Hebrew Scripture.

Why is it you must quote Saul's letters when asked to show me in Genesis 17 the Abraham covenant includes non-Hebrew Gentiles???

Why can't you show me in Genesis when and where the Abraham covenant was made to prove non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Abraham covenant?
That's because you can't.

Instead, you elevate Saul to God status with the power and authority to change Yahweh's covenants with the Hebrew people to include non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Abraham covenants.
Imagine that. Man has the Deific power and authority to change Yahweh's covenants with the Hebrew people to now include non-Hebrew Gentiles.
Saul is a false god. He was only a messenger, not a god with power or authority to change Yahweh's covenants with the Hebrew people.

ALL PRAISE AND WORSHIP TO SAUL, THE GOD AND APOSTLE TO THE GENTILES!!!

HALLELU-SAUL!
HALLELU-SAUL!
HALLELU-SAUL!

Er, I mean, PAUL!

Um the New testament is scripture and BTW the old covenant has been replaced with the New