Understanding the nature of man and sin

[TomL]

God IS righteous and loving. He also wants us to know all of his attributes. Without sin, that's impossible. Romans explains this pretty clearly.

22 What if [i.e. what's it to YOU?] God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Some here reject that God ordained for Adam to fall because they lack faith in God's purpose, that God could do that for good reason. We are but men, and can't know/plan the end from the beginning, like God.

Nothing there about God ordaining Adam's fall

God choosing - god willing concessive use of the participle, although willing, not causal that they are responsible may be seen 1Th 2:15 A.T Robertson

fitted to destruction - men persistent in evil. it is in the middle voice indicating that the vessels of wrath fitted themselves for destruction. vine’s

two different verbs are used in 9:22-23 translated as "fitted" and "prepared": katērtismena and proētoimasen. These verbs are in different tenses and voices. The word "prepared" has the Greek prefix pro and is therefore translated "afore prepared" (i.e., prepared beforehand). The word "prepared" is the third person singular, aorist active, indicative, showing God actively involved in the past preparation of the vessels of mercy. But "fitted" is a plural, middle / passive, perfect participle that agrees with the term "vessels." The perfect tense shows a current state that began in the past. There is debate whether the verb is intended as middle or passive, both of which have the same ending so that context determines which applies. The context here is Paul's contrast between the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy, and the middle voice is the better fit, so that Paul is saying that the vessels of wrath fitted themselves out for destruction, which means Paul is unquestionably not talking about TULIP election but building on the concepts addressed in Romans 1. This fits the example already given of Pharaoh defying God and hardening his heart (to which God later responded both with mercy and hardening) and the fact that Paul does not make any reference to God acting beforehand on the vessels of wrath as he does with the vessels of mercy. To these, God will eventually withhold mercy and show His wrath.
Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (pp. 164-165). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.

 

[TedT]

In Calvinism God is the author of sin

agreed.

But from your pov, who is the author of my sinfulness?
Whose choice is it that I am born separated from GOD by sin?

 

[jeremiah1five]

How are you at reading lengthy books?

About 14 years ago I ran across a book, through a puritan devotional.

The book's title is
Human Nature in its Fourfold State.

It was originally published in 1811.
The author is Thomas Boston.
He was a puritan pastor.
There comes a certain point in the book where it's clearly calvinist.
But by and large, it's an awesome Bible study on the 4-fold state of the human being.

The first state is before the fall.
The second state is after the fall, before Jesus. (Out of Christ)
The third state is after Jesus. Aka, IN Christ.

The fourth state is a two-fold condition...

Those who are in Christ, are eternally blessed.
Those who are not in Christ are eternally cursed.

It's 370 pages, and quite detailed in it's description, giving extensive biblical references.

You can find a freely available copy on Archive.org

Human nature in its fourfold state; of primitive integrity, entire depravity, begun recovery, and consummate happiness or misery subsisting in the parents of mankind in Paradise, the unregenerate, the regenerate, and all mankind in the future state,

26

archive.org

And numerous other pay sources, for a hardcopy.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=human+nature+in+its+fourfold+state&adgrpid=54124744777&hvadid=617005322832&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=9030904&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=17566683794498088371&hvtargid=kwd-362868445117&hydadcr=15118_13597746&tag=hydsma-20&ref=pd_sl_6k4j42plea_e

I'm familiar with Boston. I bought the book at Audible. But it'll take me some time to read it (19 hours) so I'll have to get back to you. I'm audibly reading something else at the minute: Jordan Petersen.

I don't believe in a "Fall" of mankind. I believe God created man sinful which is why he sinned as I believe sin comes from sinner and Adam and the woman were already sinners by adding to God's Word (Prov. 30:6) when they said, "Neither shall ye touch it."

Sin comes from sinner. (1 Sam. 24:13)

Isaiah says, "There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory (sinlessness, holiness, righteousness, etc.), to NO ONE" which would leave His creation as fallen short of His glory and the word for that is sin.

 

[SteveB]

I'm familiar with Boston. I bought the book at Audible. But it'll take me some time to read it (19 hours) so I'll have to get back to you.

It was merely a recommendation of a good book.

I'm audibly reading something else at the minute: Jordan Petersen.

Ok.

I don't believe in a "Fall" of mankind. I believe God created man sinful which is why he sinned as I believe sin comes from sinner and Adam and the woman were already sinners by adding to God's Word (Prov. 30:6) when they said, "Neither shall ye touch it."

pity.
if God created Adam already sinful, he wouldn't have stated,

Gen 1:31 WEB God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. There was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

Unless you believe that sin is VERY GOOD, Adam was created very good, without sin, with the capacity to choose.

Adam and Eve were given the choice...
A tree that gives life, and a tree that gives death.

Notice that God kicked them out of the garden afterwards, so they wouldn't eat of the tree of life and live forever....Genesis 3
Gen 3:24 WEB So he drove out the man; and he placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

Sin comes from sinner. (1 Sam. 24:13)

After the fall.... absolutely!

Isaiah says, "There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory (sinlessness, holiness, righteousness, etc.), to NO ONE" which would leave His creation as fallen short of His glory and the word for that is sin.

After the fall in the garden.
Absolutely.

Adam's sin destroyed the connection between humanity and God.

Jesus restored it, and through faith in Jesus, we're made right with God, in spiritual regeneration, being the rebirth.

Boston's book does a great job of describing it.

 

[TomL]

agreed.

But from your pov, who is the author of my sinfulness?
Whose choice is it that I am born separated from GOD by sin?

You are

And you are not born guilty of sin

 

[jeremiah1five]

It was merely a recommendation of a good book.
Ok.
pity.
if God created Adam already sinful, he wouldn't have stated,

Gen 1:31 WEB God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. There was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

Unless you believe that sin is VERY GOOD, Adam was created very good, without sin, with the capacity to choose.

The word "good" in the creative narrative merely means "good enough" or "to specification." We say the same thing after we follow a recipe and take a bite and say "yum, that's good" meaning it came out according to the recipe instructions, or we say, "good job."

There is no moral or morality attached to this word.

Adam and Eve were given the choice...
A tree that gives life, and a tree that gives death.

Notice that God kicked them out of the garden afterwards, so they wouldn't eat of the tree of life and live forever....Genesis 3
Gen 3:24 WEB So he drove out the man; and he placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

So, if they were not eternal to begin with then this leaves them fallen short of the glory of God, and the word for that is sin. Both trees were available BEFORE their sin so you can't tell me the Gentile textbook answer that God took away the Tree of Life so they wouldn't live forever in a sinful condition.
Man, I used to believe all that false Gentile garbage as you do now. Now I see as God sees and say the same thing as God.

After the fall.... absolutely!
After the fall in the garden.
Absolutely.
Adam's sin destroyed the connection between humanity and God.

There was no connection. God is too pure to have a connection with the sinful creation He created.
Don't you believe let alone understand what Isaiah means that there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory (sinlessness) to NO ONE?
Compare the two "Adam's."
One was sinless, holy, innocent, righteous and He did NOT SIN. IF Adam was as Christ, then he would not have sinned but since he sinned this proves the first Adam was sinful and created fallen short of God's glory.

Jesus restored it, and through faith in Jesus, we're made right with God, in spiritual regeneration, being the rebirth.

Boston's book does a great job of describing it.

 

[SteveB]

The word "good" in the creative narrative merely means "good enough" or "to specification." We say the same thing after we follow a recipe and take a bite and say "yum, that's good" meaning it came out according to the recipe instructions, or we say, "good job."

There is no moral or morality attached to this word.

And you know that.... how?


Based on the Hebrew language, it says meod tov.

H3966 search
Original: מאד

Transliteration: me'ôd

Phonetic: meh-ode'

BDB Definition:

exceedingly, much (adverb)
might, force, abundance (substantive)
muchness, force, abundance, exceedingly (noun masculine)
force, might
exceedingly, greatly, very (idioms showing magnitude or degree)
exceedingly
up to abundance, to a great degree, exceedingly
with muchness, muchness
Origin: from the same as H181

TWOT entry: 1134

Part(s) of speech:

Strong's Definition: From the same as H181; properly vehemence, that is, (with or without preposition) vehemently ; by implication wholly, speedily, etc. (often with other words as an intensive or superlative; especially when repeated): - diligently, especially, exceeding (-ly), far, fast, good, great (-ly), X louder and louder, might (-ily, -y), (so) much, quickly, (so) sore, utterly, very (+ much, sore), well.

Total KJV Occurrences: 286

H2896 search
Original: טוב

Transliteration: ṭôb

Phonetic: tobe

BDB Definition:

good, pleasant, agreeable (adjective)
pleasant, agreeable (to the senses)
pleasant (to the higher nature)
good, excellent (of its kind)
good, rich, valuable in estimation
good, appropriate, becoming
better (comparative)
glad, happy, prosperous (of man's sensuous nature)
good understanding (of man's intellectual nature)
good, kind, benign
good, right (ethical)
a good thing, benefit, welfare (noun masculine)
welfare, prosperity, happiness
good things (collective)
good, benefit
moral good
welfare, benefit, good things (noun feminine)
welfare, prosperity, happiness
good things (collective)
bounty
Origin: from H2895

TWOT entry: 793a

Part(s) of speech:

Strong's Definition: From H2895; good (as an adjective) in the widest sense; used likewise as a noun, both in the masculine and the feminine, the singular and the plural (good, a good or good thing, a good man or woman; the good, goods or good things, good men or women), also as an adverb (well): - beautiful, best, better, bountiful, cheerful, at ease, X fair (word), (be in) favour, fine, glad, good (deed, -lier, liest, -ly, -ness, -s), graciously, joyful, kindly, kindness, liketh (best), loving, merry, X most, pleasant, + pleaseth, pleasure, precious, prosperity, ready, sweet, wealth, welfare, (be) well ([-favoured]).

Total KJV Occurrences: 558

If the Holy Spirit selected these two words, he did so because He assigns moral meaning to it.

So, if they were not eternal to begin with then this leaves them fallen short of the glory of God, and the word for that is sin.

there's nothing to imply or infer that the human being is eternal.
where are you getting that idea from?

Both trees were available BEFORE their sin so you can't tell me the Gentile textbook answer that God took away the Tree of Life so they wouldn't live forever in a sinful condition.

I never said he took away the Tree of Life.
Scripture plainly stated he put angels to block the way to the Tree of Life.

Gen 3:24 WEB So he drove out the man; and he placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

Man, I used to believe all that false Gentile garbage as you do now. Now I see as God sees and say the same thing as God.

So, the Bible doesn't actually say what it says?

There was no connection. God is too pure to have a connection with the sinful creation He created.

I suppose that would explain why YHVH became a human being, through the birth of a human child, lived among us and grew to adulthood as a man.
he then died, and 3 days later, rose from the dead. 40 days later, he ascended to return to the Father.
 

Don't you believe let alone understand what Isaiah means that there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory (sinlessness) to NO ONE?

there is none like him.
He doesn't share his glory with another.
The problem you're having here is your confusion with the nature of YHVH.

Compare the two "Adam's."
One was sinless, holy, innocent, righteous and He did NOT SIN. IF Adam was as Christ, then he would not have sinned but since he sinned this proves the first Adam was sinful and created fallen short of God's glory.

Adam was without sin until he ate the fruit.
Jesus did not succumb to temptation, and retains his nature.

 

[TomL]

And you know that.... how?


Based on the Hebrew language, it says meod tov.

H3966 search
Original: מאד

Transliteration: me'ôd

Phonetic: meh-ode'

BDB Definition:

exceedingly, much (adverb)
might, force, abundance (substantive)
muchness, force, abundance, exceedingly (noun masculine)
force, might
exceedingly, greatly, very (idioms showing magnitude or degree)
exceedingly
up to abundance, to a great degree, exceedingly
with muchness, muchness
Origin: from the same as H181

TWOT entry: 1134

Part(s) of speech:

Strong's Definition: From the same as H181; properly vehemence, that is, (with or without preposition) vehemently ; by implication wholly, speedily, etc. (often with other words as an intensive or superlative; especially when repeated): - diligently, especially, exceeding (-ly), far, fast, good, great (-ly), X louder and louder, might (-ily, -y), (so) much, quickly, (so) sore, utterly, very (+ much, sore), well.

Total KJV Occurrences: 286

H2896 search
Original: טוב

Transliteration: ṭôb

Phonetic: tobe

BDB Definition:

good, pleasant, agreeable (adjective)
pleasant, agreeable (to the senses)
pleasant (to the higher nature)
good, excellent (of its kind)
good, rich, valuable in estimation
good, appropriate, becoming
better (comparative)
glad, happy, prosperous (of man's sensuous nature)
good understanding (of man's intellectual nature)
good, kind, benign
good, right (ethical)
a good thing, benefit, welfare (noun masculine)
welfare, prosperity, happiness
good things (collective)
good, benefit
moral good
welfare, benefit, good things (noun feminine)
welfare, prosperity, happiness
good things (collective)
bounty
Origin: from H2895

TWOT entry: 793a

Part(s) of speech:

Strong's Definition: From H2895; good (as an adjective) in the widest sense; used likewise as a noun, both in the masculine and the feminine, the singular and the plural (good, a good or good thing, a good man or woman; the good, goods or good things, good men or women), also as an adverb (well): - beautiful, best, better, bountiful, cheerful, at ease, X fair (word), (be in) favour, fine, glad, good (deed, -lier, liest, -ly, -ness, -s), graciously, joyful, kindly, kindness, liketh (best), loving, merry, X most, pleasant, + pleaseth, pleasure, precious, prosperity, ready, sweet, wealth, welfare, (be) well ([-favoured]).

Total KJV Occurrences: 558

If the Holy Spirit selected these two words, he did so because He assigns moral meaning to it.


there's nothing to imply or infer that the human being is eternal.
where are you getting that idea from?

I never said he took away the Tree of Life.
Scripture plainly stated he put angels to block the way to the Tree of Life.

Gen 3:24 WEB So he drove out the man; and he placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

So, the Bible doesn't actually say what it says?

I suppose that would explain why YHVH became a human being, through the birth of a human child, lived among us and grew to adulthood as a man.
he then died, and 3 days later, rose from the dead. 40 days later, he ascended to return to the Father.
 

there is none like him.
He doesn't share his glory with another.
The problem you're having here is your confusion with the nature of YHVH.



Adam was without sin until he ate the fruit.
Jesus did not succumb to temptation, and retains his nature.

Compare the two "Adam's."
One was sinless, holy, innocent, righteous and He did NOT SIN. IF Adam was as Christ, then he would not have sinned but since he sinned this proves the first Adam was sinful and created fallen short of God's glory.

So God made a sinful man in your view

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (KJV 1900) — 29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

 

[jeremiah1five]

And you know that.... how?


Based on the Hebrew language, it says meod tov.

H3966 search
Original: מאד

Transliteration: me'ôd

Phonetic: meh-ode'

BDB Definition:

exceedingly, much (adverb)
might, force, abundance (substantive)
muchness, force, abundance, exceedingly (noun masculine)
force, might
exceedingly, greatly, very (idioms showing magnitude or degree)
exceedingly
up to abundance, to a great degree, exceedingly
with muchness, muchness
Origin: from the same as H181

TWOT entry: 1134

Part(s) of speech:

Strong's Definition: From the same as H181; properly vehemence, that is, (with or without preposition) vehemently ; by implication wholly, speedily, etc. (often with other words as an intensive or superlative; especially when repeated): - diligently, especially, exceeding (-ly), far, fast, good, great (-ly), X louder and louder, might (-ily, -y), (so) much, quickly, (so) sore, utterly, very (+ much, sore), well.

Total KJV Occurrences: 286

H2896 search
Original: טוב

Transliteration: ṭôb

Phonetic: tobe

BDB Definition:

good, pleasant, agreeable (adjective)
pleasant, agreeable (to the senses)
pleasant (to the higher nature)
good, excellent (of its kind)
good, rich, valuable in estimation
good, appropriate, becoming
better (comparative)
glad, happy, prosperous (of man's sensuous nature)
good understanding (of man's intellectual nature)
good, kind, benign
good, right (ethical)
a good thing, benefit, welfare (noun masculine)
welfare, prosperity, happiness
good things (collective)
good, benefit
moral good
welfare, benefit, good things (noun feminine)
welfare, prosperity, happiness
good things (collective)
bounty
Origin: from H2895

TWOT entry: 793a

Part(s) of speech:

Strong's Definition: From H2895; good (as an adjective) in the widest sense; used likewise as a noun, both in the masculine and the feminine, the singular and the plural (good, a good or good thing, a good man or woman; the good, goods or good things, good men or women), also as an adverb (well): - beautiful, best, better, bountiful, cheerful, at ease, X fair (word), (be in) favour, fine, glad, good (deed, -lier, liest, -ly, -ness, -s), graciously, joyful, kindly, kindness, liketh (best), loving, merry, X most, pleasant, + pleaseth, pleasure, precious, prosperity, ready, sweet, wealth, welfare, (be) well ([-favoured]).

Total KJV Occurrences: 558

If the Holy Spirit selected these two words, he did so because He assigns moral meaning to it.


there's nothing to imply or infer that the human being is eternal.
where are you getting that idea from?

I never said he took away the Tree of Life.
Scripture plainly stated he put angels to block the way to the Tree of Life.

Gen 3:24 WEB So he drove out the man; and he placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

So, the Bible doesn't actually say what it says?

I suppose that would explain why YHVH became a human being, through the birth of a human child, lived among us and grew to adulthood as a man.
he then died, and 3 days later, rose from the dead. 40 days later, he ascended to return to the Father.
 

there is none like him.
He doesn't share his glory with another.
The problem you're having here is your confusion with the nature of YHVH.



Adam was without sin until he ate the fruit.
Jesus did not succumb to temptation, and retains his nature.

"good" [Strong's #2895] Hebrew Word: טוֹב Transliteration: ṭôb (verb.)

a primitive root, to be (transitive do or make) good (or well) in the widest sense.

See the word defined as "well"?

His creation was "good" or "well" (enough), "to specification."

Simple.

There is no moral aspect or quality to the word. That word that contains moral quality does not appear in the creative narrative.

 

[jeremiah1five]

So God made a sinful man in your view

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (KJV 1900) — 29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

God did made "man upright" or "straight" meaning that under the Law the children of Israel were made "straight" or "right" with God through the animal sacrifices. Solomon understood this.

And this word "made" has nothing to do with any word defined as "created." Solomon does not say man was "made" or created "straight" or "upright." He is not referring to creation.

 

[TomL]

God did made "man upright" or "straight" meaning that under the Law the children of Israel were made "straight" or "right" with God through the animal sacrifices. Solomon understood this.

And this word "made" has nothing to do with any word defined as "created." Solomon does not say man was "made" or created "straight" or "upright." He is not referring to creation.

You are simply in denial

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (NIV) — 29 This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes.”



15. to create† — to bring into existence. Stems: qal, 4. See also קנה. Related Topics: Cosmology; Creation Myths; Creation; New Creation; Myth.
qal
Am 5:8 עֹשֵׂ֨ה כִימָ֜ה וּכְסִ֗יל
Ec 3:11 אֶת־הַכֹּ֥ל עָשָׂ֖ה
Ec 7:14 גַּ֣ם אֶת־זֶ֤ה לְעֻמַּת־זֶה֙ עָשָׂ֣ה הָֽאֱלֹהִ֔ים
Ec 7:29 אֲשֶׁ֨ר עָשָׂ֧ה הָאֱלֹהִ֛ים
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Hebrew Bible (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

there is no sense of animal sacrifice in the passage

Ecclesiastes 7:27–29 (KJV 1900) — 27 Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account: 28 Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found. 29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

 

[SteveB]

"good" [Strong's #2895] Hebrew Word: טוֹב Transliteration: ṭôb (verb.)

a primitive root, to be (transitive do or make) good (or well) in the widest sense.

See the word defined as "well"?

His creation was "good" or "well" (enough), "to specification."

Simple.

There is no moral aspect or quality to the word. That word that contains moral quality does not appear in the creative narrative.

Thank you for informing me of your opinion.

It's a truly good thing that YHVH is the only one whose opinion actually carries weight on the matter. Especially when it's His home we're being invited to come and live for eternity.

 

[civic]

It was merely a recommendation of a good book.

Ok.

pity.
if God created Adam already sinful, he wouldn't have stated,

Gen 1:31 WEB God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. There was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

Unless you believe that sin is VERY GOOD, Adam was created very good, without sin, with the capacity to choose.

Adam and Eve were given the choice...
A tree that gives life, and a tree that gives death.

Notice that God kicked them out of the garden afterwards, so they wouldn't eat of the tree of life and live forever....Genesis 3
Gen 3:24 WEB So he drove out the man; and he placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.





After the fall.... absolutely!


After the fall in the garden.
Absolutely.

Adam's sin destroyed the connection between humanity and God.

Jesus restored it, and through faith in Jesus, we're made right with God, in spiritual regeneration, being the rebirth.

Boston's book does a great job of describing it.

Everything God created was good not evil or sinful. Thats the facts from Genesis 1 and Gods 6 days of creation. You are correct.

You are dealing with a theistic fatalists mindset of the calvinist/determinist. I have been one myself for many decades and now oppose such an unbiblical view of the Good God of the Bible.

 

[TomL]

Everything God created was good not evil or sinful. Thats the facts from Genesis 1 and Gods 6 days of creation. You are correct.

You are dealing with a theistic fatalists mindset of the calvinist/determinist. I have been one myself for many decades and now oppose such an unbiblical view of the Good God of the Bible.

I think he is dealing with someone who denies the New Testament and holds to Jewish superiority

 

[civic]

I think he is dealing with someone who denies the New Testament and holds to Jewish superiority

Could be but it’s still a theistic determinism.

 

[TedT]

You are

And you are not born guilty of sin

Good morning TomL,

this doctrine, to my mind, implies that
- death is not the wages for sin but is a mere consequence of lfe
- innocents besides Christ do suffer and die
- GOD does create some people just to suffer and die as unsinful babies for some unstated reason...

IF babies are saved from sin by dying in their innocence, then why do so many people grow up to become sinful and to cause so much suffering in this world? Why was I not killed in my innocence but instead made to live until I sinned and then left in my sin until I was 40, causing all sorts of mayhem to those I came across?

I ask why, not because I think there is an answer or a mystery but because I do not think there is an answer since this idea contradicts the benevolence of GOD even if it seems to solve a theological problem at face value.

Why were not we, me and thee, saved by being members of the death as infants club?? ARE those who die as innocents better than the rest of us, worthy to be saved from a life of suffering and causing suffering? Why would HE not save every one this way since HE is love and wants no one to be damned?

 

[TomL]

Good morning TomL,

this doctrine, to my mind, implies that
- death is not the wages for sin but is a mere consequence of lfe

All do in fact die

- innocents besides Christ do suffer and die

Yes

- GOD does create some people just to suffer and die as unsinful babies for some unstated reason...

I would disagree with that. We live in a sin cursed world and that has consequences

 

[TedT]

I would disagree with that. We live in a sin cursed world and that has consequences

What possible reason could the ONE who is defined as LOVE have for creating people in HIS image into a world of suffering and death to become sinful themselves only because of the culture HE forced them to live within?

All do in fact die

Only sinners suffer death. IF you are holy and elect there is no hint that you are born into this world to suffer and die.

Why did HE not create us to be angels rather than in the sinful Adam? Why create anyone into Adam's cursed world for no reason ! instead of creating more angels to be HIS Bride when Adam and Eve and their line were cursed? This suggests a very low level of loving holiness toward HIS innocent creation...too low for me to accept.

I suggest that HE did create everyone in HIS image as able to be HIS bride by their free will and everyone had an equal ability and opportunity to become HIS Bride by faith in HIM as their GOD and saviour from sin OR to become HIS eternal enemy by their faith against him as a false god. Then the Satanic rebellion occurred and split HIS creation into three moral groups:
- those who put their faith in HIM fully,
- those who never accepted HIM as their GOD saviour because they rebuked HIM as a liar and therefore a false god from the beginning and
- those who put their faith in HIM as their GOD and saviour but then chose to sin.

Iow,
- HIS holy and elect angels
- HIS sheep gone astray into sin who were never condemned for their sin because they believed in His name Jn 3:18, and
- those who never believed and so are condemned already, Jn 318.

No innocent except Christ suffers.
No innocent has ever had to live in a sin cursed world suffering the consequences of sin merely because of where they were created!!
No innocent suffers at all - only the sinful are born into this world, both the sinful people of HIS kingdom and the eternally evil people of the evil one, Matt 13:36-39.

ONLY those sinful by their own free will must suffer the consequences of living in a cursed world.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

ONLY those sinful by their own free will must suffer the consequences of living in a cursed world.

Name one person other than Jesus who, by their own free will, was never sinful.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You are simply in denial

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (NIV) — 29 This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes.”



15. to create† — to bring into existence. Stems: qal, 4. See also קנה. Related Topics: Cosmology; Creation Myths; Creation; New Creation; Myth.
qal
Am 5:8 עֹשֵׂ֨ה כִימָ֜ה וּכְסִ֗יל
Ec 3:11 אֶת־הַכֹּ֥ל עָשָׂ֖ה
Ec 7:14 גַּ֣ם אֶת־זֶ֤ה לְעֻמַּת־זֶה֙ עָשָׂ֣ה הָֽאֱלֹהִ֔ים
Ec 7:29 אֲשֶׁ֨ר עָשָׂ֧ה הָאֱלֹהִ֛ים
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Hebrew Bible (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

there is no sense of animal sacrifice in the passage

Ecclesiastes 7:27–29 (KJV 1900) — 27 Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account: 28 Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found. 29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

There are two Hebrew words in the creative narrative of Genesis.

• בָּרָא (bara): This verb is used specifically in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created (בָּרָא) the heavens and the earth." The verb בָּרָא is often understood to mean creating something new or bringing something into existence from nothing (creatio ex nihilo). It is a term typically reserved for divine activity, emphasizing God's unique role in creation.
• עָשָׂה (asah): This verb appears throughout the creation narrative, such as in Genesis 1:7, "So God made (עָשָׂה) the expanse and separated the waters under the expanse from the waters above it." The verb עָשָׂה means to make, do, or fashion and is more general than בָּרָא. It can refer to the

Bara is used of God, and it means to "make something out of nothing."

Asah refers to "making something out of something."

The word ʿāśâ is in Ecclesiastes 7:29 and cannot and does not refer to God creating man out of nothing but instead is the word asah meaning God made man "upright" due to the Mosaic Covenant animal sacrifices which atoned yearly for the sins of the Hebrew people and as far as God was concerned the people were atoned (upright) in His eyes.
Either come with Scripture truth or don't come at all. I'm not your teacher. I can only advise you pray and fast and ask God to give you the Holy Spirit and once given ask God to open your heart and mind to His truth. It is very lacking in your belief system. For one who is anointed with the Holy Spirit their knowledge of God's truth after many decades of study would be 90% truth, 10% error. Yours is 90% error and 10% truth telling me the Holy Spirit does not dwell in you and as such Romans 8:9 applies.