Understanding the nature of man and sin

So GOD delegated me to be created as a sinner by delegating me to have Adam's sin nature by HIS will, NOT BY MY FREE WILL???!!!

Your thesis solves nothing...

What does it matter if HIS righteousness is impugned by creating sin before a free will choice to sin if it is before or after Adam??? It is wrong at any time!

Adam's nature changed because of his sin. He was fallen, and realized it and was ashamed. We inherited his fallen nature, hence we are born sinners. This is the fate God ordained from the beginning. If you think that's unfair, tell God you want a special dispensation to only be responsible for your own sins. Don't hold your breath, though.
 
No sir...
Adam's created nature was not sinful but he had the ability to choose to become sinful by his free will.
13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

This is the same as saying, "sin comes from sinners."
[edit:]
Satan's fall was before the creation of the world so before Adam there were myriads of sinners, all created by their free will, NOT GOD"S will.
So, before their act of sin what were they? Holy? Sinless?
And does not jeremiah 1 five's thesis also apply to Adam's progeny, the rest of mankind? That is, are they not created in Adam's sin or nature or whatever has us separated from GOD, (or however people like to say it so it lessens their feelings of blasphemy that they think GOD creates evil people) proven by being under the curse of death and with no righteousness?
Only Adam (and the woman were created. The rest are born.)
Have you even read my thread? The answer is there.
Death is the wages for sin.
Infants die.
Therefore they are sinners, not just created as tabula rasa.

IF GOD's perfection and glory demands that they only die for their wilful choice to sin and not by HIS will...then when did they make that choice? I suggest that the many hints that we existed as living spirits before the creation of the physical universe solves this and many other quirks of ordinary theology...
Which is it: We are sinners because we sin, or we sin because we are sinners?
One supports the Doctrine of Imputation, the other does not.
Which is it?
 
No way...not only unfair but absolutely injust. GOD cannot ordain anyone to be a condemned sinner nor to ordain them to hell before they choose to sin the unforgivable sin.

Of course, you're right. God put a forbidden tree in the garden and allowed Satan in and said to himself, "What could possibly go wrong?" When eve ate the fruit and gave some to Adam, God then said, "I'm shocked. SHOCKED, I tell you."
 
Of course, you're right. God put a forbidden tree in the garden and allowed Satan in and said to himself, "What could possibly go wrong?" When eve ate the fruit and gave some to Adam, God then said, "I'm shocked. SHOCKED, I tell you."
There was no Satan in the Garden of God. The angels that sinned are locked up awaiting judgment (2 Peter 2:4.)
The woman's temptation comes from what James said, "of her own lust" (James 1:14.)
There are not two ways to be tempted but one and James describes this one way.
 
There was no Satan in the Garden of God. The angels that sinned are locked up awaiting judgment (2 Peter 2:4.)

This is ONLY referring to angels that "kept not their own domain," that is they illegally trafficked with woman.

That does not logically equal all demons locked up, that's absurd, even Christ dealt with devils.

We see certain demons reserved for a specific time and task in Revelation 9:15.
 
So GOD delegated me to be created as a sinner by delegating me to have Adam's sin nature by HIS will, NOT BY MY FREE WILL???!!!

Your thesis solves nothing...

What does it matter if HIS righteousness is impugned by creating sin before a free will choice to sin if it is before or after Adam??? It is wrong at any time!

I understand your sentiments.

I struggled with many years feeling God's ways were unloving and unfair.

Our sinful nature will never see the value of God as infinitely above and superior to creation, thus we get offended at God for allowing evils.


It may seem pointless and irresponsible for God to allow one man's sin to affect billions of others.

But the reason we feel that way is not because we love people more than God does, but rather because we hate the idea of being victims ourselves.

If God had a holy and good reason to allow victimization through delegation, this still preserves his intention for good will, because he does not want the delegation to sin.


It is only our selfishness that hates so much God putting our destinies in another person's hands.

We should recognize that is rebellion and pride in our own heart, and pray earnestly that God humble us to a place of worship.
 
It's not the "acts" of sin of which Christ died for but for the sin nature as the Doctrine of Imputation declares in 2 Cor. 5:21. It was a nature-swap. He takes our sin nature, and we take His righteous nature. This is what Peter is speaking about when he says we "partake of His divine nature." He didn't die for our sinful acts (which are only the symptom), He died for our sin nature (which is the cause) from where our sinful acts originates.

I agree with the nature swap thing.

But Scripture is CRYSTAL clear that Jesus also suffered the punishment for our individual sins, not just the nature.

You will not find a stronger advocate of the sin nature on this forum.

But it's absurd to think a holy God can pass over individual sins, that just does not happen, the price must be paid in full.


Now as to free will, you seem to have a wrong definition of it, distortions I see in a lot of Calvinists who tilt at the windmills of straw men definitions.

Yes, God created free will, he says choose ye this day, and the sin nature does preclude their being a free will.


This study is a worth a read, and includes a lot of these points:

 
There was no Satan in the Garden of God. The angels that sinned are locked up awaiting judgment (2 Peter 2:4.)
The woman's temptation comes from what James said, "of her own lust" (James 1:14.)
There are not two ways to be tempted but one and James describes this one way.

Oh, I see. God let the serpent in the garden to lie and tempt Eve. That makes all the difference. God couldn't possibly have seen that coming.
 
This is ONLY referring to angels that "kept not their own domain," that is they illegally trafficked with woman.

That does not logically equal all demons locked up, that's absurd, even Christ dealt with devils.

We see certain demons reserved for a specific time and task in Revelation 9:15.
I knew you'd give the textbook answer.
You take Job's "sons of God" and Genesis' "sons of God" in chapter 6 and turn humans into angels.
I think you need to rethink this subject because to do that runs into many fantastical claims that violate several natural and reasonable truths.
 
I agree with the nature swap thing.
But Scripture is CRYSTAL clear that Jesus also suffered the punishment for our individual sins, not just the nature.
Well, when I go to a doctor (and I do) unless there is a cure for my condition, I don't want him to just address the symptoms of my condition. I'd rather he addresses the cause of my ailment. And that is what we have here. The cause of sin and the acts of sin that come from the cause of sin.
The cause: sin nature.
The symptoms: acts of sin from my sin nature.
Take care of the cause and the symptoms go away.
Right?
You will not find a stronger advocate of the sin nature on this forum.
I'm stronger.
But it's absurd to think a holy God can pass over individual sins, that just does not happen, the price must be paid in full.
Again, did God deal with the sin nature (my sickness) or did He deal with the acts of sin (the symptoms)?
Now as to free will, you seem to have a wrong definition of it, distortions I see in a lot of Calvinists who tilt at the windmills of straw men definitions.
First, I'm not Calvinist. I never read or studied Calvin until I heard of him many years ago and even then, I did not read or study Calvin. If I came to the same conclusions as him and Saul, and Augustine, then this encourages my personal study and God has rightly divided His Word of Truth in me.
It just comes down to this question: Which will is Sovereign: God's or man?
And then there's also the question that if man has free will and God overrules that free will with His own then God has sinned and free will is a lie.
Yes, God created free will, he says choose ye this day, and the sin nature does preclude their being a free will.
He said that to a people ALREADY in covenant with Him.
 
Oh, I see. God let the serpent in the garden to lie and tempt Eve. That makes all the difference. God couldn't possibly have seen that coming.
The Scripture tells me what to believe and I don't add to the bible:

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Peter 2:4.

With the above truth one must now find out WHEN this happened and I place this sentence from God between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, before God created man.

And man - including the woman in the Garden - was tempted as per James:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:14.

This is the same way Jesus was tempted.
There are not two ways to be tempted but one. James 1:14.
 
Of course, you're right. God put a forbidden tree in the garden and allowed Satan in and said to himself, "What could possibly go wrong?" When eve ate the fruit and gave some to Adam, God then said, "I'm shocked. SHOCKED, I tell you."
Why do I think GOD set up the byplay in the garden to go like this ? especially IF Eve was a newly created innocent, a tabula rasa, a know nothing at all?

ImCo:
IF so, then why did YHWH not discuss with her the dangers the serpent presented? Why did HE even allow the serpent access to her? HIS reaction to the serpent could be construed as a very unloving thing to do with HIS newly created innocent elect member of HIS Church, HIS Bride ! since HE obviously knew she would obviously be deceived and defiled by the serpent's evil intent.

So I ask, "Why would GOD treat Eve so? Why permit her to go through this experience with the serpent and be deceived and defiled?

This reminds me of 1 Timothy 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful...etc, etc. Why were Adam and Eve given a command if they were righteous in their innocence when the law is only given to sinners to convict them of sin? Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of / convicts of sin. ?? Awareness is 1922 epígnōsis "knowledge gained through first-hand relationship".

When this verse is applied to Adam and Eve It would seem to say that they were already sinful even though they had not eaten yet and the command was given to bring them to the awareness, the knowledge gained through first-hand experience, that they were sinners. The reference to their not being ashamed is weird if they have nothing to be ashamed of, ie they were just created in innocence BUT if they were indeed sinful but thought that they were righteous ( as most sinners think) then having their eyes opened to their sinfulness by giving them a law to break, the command not to eat, they could realize their sinfulness and became ashamed.

While naked is a common Biblical metaphor for sinfulness, it is notable that the word chosen to refer to their nakedness is the same word used to describe the evil of the serpent's cunning, ie, they are homonyms, the same word with two meanings. The vowel marks that differentiate the word naked from the word cunning were added by the Masoretes ç600AD. Thus verse Genesis 2:25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame. could be as easily read: Genesis 2:25 Adam and his wife were both cunning in an evil way, but they felt no shame.

So, if we limit ourselves to just these hints (ignoring the others) that Adam and Evil were already sinful in the garden before eating, we can see an obvious reason for GOD allowing the evil serpent access to HIS not so innocent daughter ie, to open her eyes to her sinfulness so she could become ashamed, repent and come to Christ. Neither is it too far a leap to suggest her sin before eating had to do with the her willingness to accept the serpent as a mentor or even a pastor and to follow his logic into disobedience, opening her eyes to his total lack of caring for her so that she would understand that to him, she was only a dispensable pawn in his game against GOD.

After letting him trick her out of Paradise, you can bet that she never gave him another opportunity to defile her again and was quite willing to see him damned and condemned, separated out of her life. This is the story of all the elect, the lesson we are to learn writ large in the first story of the Bible; the serpent is a liar, we are sinners and we will never return to Paradise until we come out from among the demons so they can be all banished to the outer darkness.
 
It is only our selfishness that hates so much God putting our destinies in another person's hands.
I think GOD is righteous and loving...I do not hate HIM for this doctrine but what I hate is that the doctrine is blasphemous and a culpable denigration of HIS love and justice nature and I have quit accepting it as a necessary interpretation of the scriptures.
 
Why do I think GOD set up the byplay in the garden to go like this ? especially IF Eve was a newly created innocent, a tabula rasa, a know nothing at all?

ImCo:
IF so, then why did YHWH not discuss with her the dangers the serpent presented? Why did HE even allow the serpent access to her? HIS reaction to the serpent could be construed as a very unloving thing to do with HIS newly created innocent elect member of HIS Church, HIS Bride ! since HE obviously knew she would obviously be deceived and defiled by the serpent's evil intent.

So I ask, "Why would GOD treat Eve so? Why permit her to go through this experience with the serpent and be deceived and defiled?

This reminds me of 1 Timothy 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful...etc, etc. Why were Adam and Eve given a command if they were righteous in their innocence when the law is only given to sinners to convict them of sin? Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of / convicts of sin. ?? Awareness is 1922 epígnōsis "knowledge gained through first-hand relationship".

When this verse is applied to Adam and Eve It would seem to say that they were already sinful even though they had not eaten yet and the command was given to bring them to the awareness, the knowledge gained through first-hand experience, that they were sinners. The reference to their not being ashamed is weird if they have nothing to be ashamed of, ie they were just created in innocence BUT if they were indeed sinful but thought that they were righteous ( as most sinners think) then having their eyes opened to their sinfulness by giving them a law to break, the command not to eat, they could realize their sinfulness and became ashamed.

While naked is a common Biblical metaphor for sinfulness, it is notable that the word chosen to refer to their nakedness is the same word used to describe the evil of the serpent's cunning, ie, they are homonyms, the same word with two meanings. The vowel marks that differentiate the word naked from the word cunning were added by the Masoretes ç600AD. Thus verse Genesis 2:25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame. could be as easily read: Genesis 2:25 Adam and his wife were both cunning in an evil way, but they felt no shame.

So, if we limit ourselves to just these hints (ignoring the others) that Adam and Evil were already sinful in the garden before eating, we can see an obvious reason for GOD allowing the evil serpent access to HIS not so innocent daughter ie, to open her eyes to her sinfulness so she could become ashamed, repent and come to Christ. Neither is it too far a leap to suggest her sin before eating had to do with the her willingness to accept the serpent as a mentor or even a pastor and to follow his logic into disobedience, opening her eyes to his total lack of caring for her so that she would understand that to him, she was only a dispensable pawn in his game against GOD.

After letting him trick her out of Paradise, you can bet that she never gave him another opportunity to defile her again and was quite willing to see him damned and condemned, separated out of her life. This is the story of all the elect, the lesson we are to learn writ large in the first story of the Bible; the serpent is a liar, we are sinners and we will never return to Paradise until we come out from among the demons so they can be all banished to the outer darkness.
interesting.
 
I think GOD is righteous and loving...I do not hate HIM for this doctrine but what I hate is that the doctrine is blasphemous and a culpable denigration of HIS love and justice nature and I have quit accepting it as a necessary interpretation of the scriptures.

God IS righteous and loving. He also wants us to know all of his attributes. Without sin, that's impossible. Romans explains this pretty clearly.

22 What if [i.e. what's it to YOU?] God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Some here reject that God ordained for Adam to fall because they lack faith in God's purpose, that God could do that for good reason. We are but men, and can't know/plan the end from the beginning, like God.
 
God IS righteous and loving. He also wants us to know all of his attributes. Without sin, that's impossible. Romans explains this pretty clearly.

22 What if [i.e. what's it to YOU?] God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Some here reject that God ordained for Adam to fall because they lack faith in God's purpose, that God could do that for good reason. We are but men, and can't know/plan the end from the beginning, like God.
Gods foreknowledge knew the fall would occur which is much different than determining the fall. God created adam knowing he would fall and man would need redemption which God planned due to the fall.
 
22 What if [i.e. what's it to YOU?] God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Some here reject that God ordained for Adam to fall because they lack faith in God's purpose, that God could do that for good reason.
These verses are indeed true but they do not say, hint at nor show the absolute necessity that this was or must have been achieved by ordaining Adam's fall!!!

Romans 9:22 What if GOD, willing to show HIS wrath, and to make HIS power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction?
This verse says that GOD was (is) willing to judge and prove to HIS people that HE is the sovereign GOD, but that HE has to endure with much long-suffering the temporary abrogation of justice concerning those vessels doomed to wrath by the postponement of the judgement as taught in Mat 13:27-30* as due to the sinfulness of HIS sinful good seed.

In verse Romans 9:23 And that HE might make known the riches of HIS glory on the vessels of mercy, which HE had afore prepared unto glory. Paul gives a reason why GOD had to postpone the judgement which HE obviously did not like or want, so that HE could show all the elect the riches of HIS glory, not HIS wrath but HIS mercy. This must include the fact that HIS way (judgement) is so much better than any other way, and that HIS judgement is an absolute necessity that it can not be abrogated if we are going to live in peace with HIM in HIS kingdom.

According to the adherents of pre-conception (PCE) theology, that is what you are supposed to be learning down here. That is what GOD wants you to learn from this life.

This verse also presupposes that the reprobate vessels of wrath existed during all the time of Satan's rebellion for when we consider that the number of those who will be judged is a known and fixed number in GOD's omniscient sight, we must also realise that they all must have existed since the very first time HE was willing to bring them to judgement, that is, all the reprobate weeds existed and fell by their own free will into unforgivable evil before the creation of the physical universe,
before they were flung into the Earth, Rev 12:4-9, and
before the garden...

IF Matt 13:27-30 is true at the time of Satan's rebellion as to why the judgement was postponed, then it must have applied to Satan and the demons with the good but sinful seed at the time of the fall or why did the judgement not happen at that time BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE GARDEN AND ADAM AND EVE???

*Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to the explanation of this parable, ie, no more metaphor, in verses 36-39]
So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’[to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. IF the reason for the postponement of the judgement is to save the sinful good seed from being pulled up and burnt with the reprobate weeds, then this assumes that at the time of the Satanic fall and the necessity of their judgment, the fall of the sinful good seed MUST have also already occurred!!!

HE didn't have to ordain Eve's fall if she chose by her free will to rebel against HIS call to come out from among her friends who had chosen by their free will to become reprobate weeds forcing the postponement of the judgement nor did HE have to ordain Adam's fall if Adam chose by his free will to not leave his friend, Eve, to GOD's mercy but rebelled against HIS call for all the elect to come out from any elect sinners or join the consequences.

This interpretation of our fall is just as true to the words as the orthodox position but are much more true to HIS attributes as a loving, righteous and just GOD.
 
Greetings, fellow seekers of truth! Today, let's delve into some profound insights from the Scriptures that shed light on the nature of man and the origin of sin. Drawing from Isaiah, Saul, and the book of Genesis, we can gain a deeper understanding of our existence and the need for redemption.

Isaiah, the prophet, unequivocally declares the uniqueness of God – there is only one God, and none can compare to Him. In His divine glory, God bestows sinlessness upon Himself alone, a characteristic not shared with any created being. This establishes a fundamental distinction between the Creator and His creation.

Genesis 2:7 reveals the remarkable creation of the first man from the dust of the ground. This act of divine craftsmanship underscores the intimate connection between humanity and the physical world. Saul, in 1 Corinthians 15, further emphasizes this distinction by highlighting the earthly origin of man and the heavenly nature of the Lord. The dichotomy between the earthly and the heavenly signifies the divine order and purpose in creation.

In Genesis 2:17, God issues a command to the man regarding the tree of knowledge, saying, "thou shalt not eat of it." This divine command introduces the concept of the Law, a moral standard that sets the stage for understanding sin. As Saul aptly articulates in Romans 7, the existence of the Law reveals our sinful nature. It is through the Law that we recognize our inability to attain sinlessness on our own.

Here lies a crucial theological point: Adam's sin does not arise from his actions alone but is rooted in his created nature. Sin is not a byproduct of sinlessness; rather, Adam's nature as a sinner leads to his transgression. This perspective challenges the notion that Adam became a sinner solely through his disobedience, suggesting that he was created with inherent tendencies toward sin.

This profound understanding aligns with the biblical narrative, emphasizing the fallen nature of humanity. Sin is not an external force imposed upon an inherently sinless creature but an outworking of the sinful nature with which we were created. This perspective lays the groundwork for comprehending the depth of God's grace and the necessity of redemption through Christ.

As we ponder these theological truths, let us engage in a thoughtful and respectful dialogue. How does this perspective on the nature of man and sin resonate with your understanding of Scripture? Let us explore together the richness of God's Word and seek a deeper revelation of His redemptive plan for humanity.
How are you at reading lengthy books?

About 14 years ago I ran across a book, through a puritan devotional.

The book's title is
Human Nature in its Fourfold State.

It was originally published in 1811.
The author is Thomas Boston.
He was a puritan pastor.
There comes a certain point in the book where it's clearly calvinist.
But by and large, it's an awesome Bible study on the 4-fold state of the human being.

The first state is before the fall.
The second state is after the fall, before Jesus. (Out of Christ)
The third state is after Jesus. Aka, IN Christ.

The fourth state is a two-fold condition...

Those who are in Christ, are eternally blessed.
Those who are not in Christ are eternally cursed.

It's 370 pages, and quite detailed in it's description, giving extensive biblical references.

You can find a freely available copy on Archive.org



And numerous other pay sources, for a hardcopy.

 
So GOD delegated me to be created as a sinner by delegating me to have Adam's sin nature by HIS will, NOT BY MY FREE WILL???!!!

Your thesis solves nothing...


What does it matter if HIS righteousness is impugned by creating sin before a free will choice to sin if it is before or after Adam??? It is wrong at any time!
In Calvinism God is the author of sin
 
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