Understanding the nature of man and sin

[jeremiah1five]

Thank you for informing me of your opinion.

It's a truly good thing that YHVH is the only one whose opinion actually carries weight on the matter. Especially when it's His home we're being invited to come and live for eternity.

Yes, but unless one has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them their understanding falls short of biblical truth.
This is why the Constantinian Gentile false theology of the past 1900 years is false.
God does not have a "home." It is we the elect that have a home, not God. And our home is to return to Trinity from whence we the elect were first contemplated.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Name one person other than Jesus who, by their own free will, was never sinful.

Why is it impossible to name a person other than Jesus who, by their own free will, is/was never sinful?

 

[SteveB]

Yes, but unless one has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them their understanding falls short of biblical truth.

Ironic.
That's what your "Constantinian Gentile false theology" says.

This is why the Constantinian Gentile false theology of the past 1900 years is false.

so, in your book, the entire Bible is a lie?

God does not have a "home."

Well, since it appears you're talking about a completely different god than YHVH, i wouldn't know.
i believe in YHVH, whose son is Jesus.

It is we the elect that have a home, not God.

what's the name of your god?

And our home is to return to Trinity from whence we the elect were first contemplated.

What does that even mean?
Sounds esoteric.

 

[TomL]

There are two Hebrew words in the creative narrative of Genesis.

• בָּרָא (bara): This verb is used specifically in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created (בָּרָא) the heavens and the earth." The verb בָּרָא is often understood to mean creating something new or bringing something into existence from nothing (creatio ex nihilo). It is a term typically reserved for divine activity, emphasizing God's unique role in creation.
• עָשָׂה (asah): This verb appears throughout the creation narrative, such as in Genesis 1:7, "So God made (עָשָׂה) the expanse and separated the waters under the expanse from the waters above it." The verb עָשָׂה means to make, do, or fashion and is more general than בָּרָא. It can refer to the

Bara is used of God, and it means to "make something out of nothing."

Asah refers to "making something out of something."

The word ʿāśâ is in Ecclesiastes 7:29 and cannot and does not refer to God creating man out of nothing but instead is the word asah meaning God made man "upright" due to the Mosaic Covenant animal sacrifices which atoned yearly for the sins of the Hebrew people and as far as God was concerned the people were atoned (upright) in His eyes.
Either come with Scripture truth or don't come at all. I'm not your teacher. I can only advise you pray and fast and ask God to give you the Holy Spirit and once given ask God to open your heart and mind to His truth. It is very lacking in your belief system. For one who is anointed with the Holy Spirit their knowledge of God's truth after many decades of study would be 90% truth, 10% error. Yours is 90% error and 10% truth telling me the Holy Spirit does not dwell in you and as such Romans 8:9 applies.

Neither the NIV or this lexicon agree with you

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (NIV) — 29 This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes.”



15. to create† — to bring into existence. Stems: qal, 4. See also קנה. Related Topics: Cosmology; Creation Myths; Creation; New Creation; Myth.
qal
Am 5:8 עֹשֵׂ֨ה כִימָ֜ה וּכְסִ֗יל
Ec 3:11 אֶת־הַכֹּ֥ל עָשָׂ֖ה
Ec 7:14 גַּ֣ם אֶת־זֶ֤ה לְעֻמַּת־זֶה֙ עָשָׂ֣ה הָֽאֱלֹהִ֔ים
Ec 7:29 אֲשֶׁ֨ר עָשָׂ֧ה הָאֱלֹהִ֛ים
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Hebrew Bible (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

there is no sense of animal sacrifice in the passage

Ecclesiastes 7:27–29 (KJV 1900) — 27 Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account: 28 Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found. 29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

 

[TomL]

What possible reason could the ONE who is defined as LOVE have for creating people in HIS image into a world of suffering and death to become sinful themselves only because of the culture HE forced them to live within?

The better question is why would a loving God create people he destines to eternal destruction

There are only two option

Either God allows it to happen or he causes it to happen

You tell me what is the better option for a loving God

Only sinners suffer death. IF you are holy and elect there is no hint that you are born into this world to suffer and die.

Um Physical death comes to all men. Suffering is not an anomaly for a Christian

Why did HE not create us to be angels rather than in the sinful Adam? Why create anyone into Adam's cursed world for no reason ! instead of creating more angels to be HIS Bride when Adam and Eve and their line were cursed? This suggests a very low level of loving holiness toward HIS innocent creation...too low for me to accept.

Um angels rebelled as well and face future suffering

I suggest that HE did create everyone in HIS image as able to be HIS bride by their free will and everyone had an equal ability and opportunity to become HIS Bride by faith in HIM as their GOD and saviour from sin OR to become HIS eternal enemy by their faith against him as a false god.

And that would be my view

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Why is it impossible to name a person other than Jesus who, by their own free will, is/was never sinful?

There's a simple answer to this, but nobody seems to know it.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Ironic.
That's what your "Constantinian Gentile false theology" says.
so, in your book, the entire Bible is a lie?
Well, since it appears you're talking about a completely different god than YHVH, i wouldn't know.
i believe in YHVH, whose son is Jesus.
what's the name of your god?


What does that even mean?
Sounds esoteric.

4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth
the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers,
and of whom
as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom. 9:4–5.

This is the Word of God.
Believe it without changing it, adding to it, breaking it, or subtracting it for it covers all one needs to know as to the ownership of Jehovah God and His covenants.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Neither the NIV or this lexicon agree with you

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (NIV) — 29 This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes.”



15. to create† — to bring into existence. Stems: qal, 4. See also קנה. Related Topics: Cosmology; Creation Myths; Creation; New Creation; Myth.
qal
Am 5:8 עֹשֵׂ֨ה כִימָ֜ה וּכְסִ֗יל
Ec 3:11 אֶת־הַכֹּ֥ל עָשָׂ֖ה
Ec 7:14 גַּ֣ם אֶת־זֶ֤ה לְעֻמַּת־זֶה֙ עָשָׂ֣ה הָֽאֱלֹהִ֔ים
Ec 7:29 אֲשֶׁ֨ר עָשָׂ֧ה הָאֱלֹהִ֛ים
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Hebrew Bible (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

there is no sense of animal sacrifice in the passage

Ecclesiastes 7:27–29 (KJV 1900) — 27 Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account: 28 Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found. 29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

If the word were to say God "made/created" "man upright" then the word would be "bara" meaning created something from nothing, but since it is "asah" it refers to making His people "upright" through the sacrificial system God ordained for the children of Israel, to atone for their sins. When the high priest under the Law sprinkled the people with the blood of the lamb he sprinkled the children of Israel in covenant with God.
Stop adding and changing God's word or you will be found to be a liar:

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Prov. 30:6.

 

[SteveB]

4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth
the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers,
and of whom
as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom. 9:4–5.

This is the Word of God.
Believe it without changing it, adding to it, breaking it, or subtracting it for it covers all one needs to know as to the ownership of Jehovah God and His covenants.

So are you saying that you are a Gentile who believes that Judaism is the only way to actually know YHVH?

 

[TomL]

If the word were to say God "made/created" "man upright" then the word would be "bara" meaning created something from nothing, but since it is "asah" it refers to making His people "upright" through the sacrificial system God ordained for the children of Israel, to atone for their sins. When the high priest under the Law sprinkled the people with the blood of the lamb he sprinkled the children of Israel in covenant with God.
Stop adding and changing God's word or you will be found to be a liar:

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Prov. 30:6.

Neither the NIV or this lexicon agree with you

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (NIV) — 29 This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes.”



15. to create† — to bring into existence. Stems: qal, 4. See also קנה. Related Topics: Cosmology; Creation Myths; Creation; New Creation; Myth.
qal
Am 5:8 עֹשֵׂ֨ה כִימָ֜ה וּכְסִ֗יל
Ec 3:11 אֶת־הַכֹּ֥ל עָשָׂ֖ה
Ec 7:14 גַּ֣ם אֶת־זֶ֤ה לְעֻמַּת־זֶה֙ עָשָׂ֣ה הָֽאֱלֹהִ֔ים
Ec 7:29 אֲשֶׁ֨ר עָשָׂ֧ה הָאֱלֹהִ֛ים
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Hebrew Bible (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

there is no sense of animal sacrifice in the passage

Ecclesiastes 7:27–29 (KJV 1900) — 27 Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account: 28 Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found. 29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

There is no hint of animal sacrifices here

 

[jeremiah1five]

So are you saying that you are a Gentile who believes that Judaism is the only way to actually know YHVH?

No, I am saying that God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew and his seed, and his seed is Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob's children a people we know today as the twelve tribes of Jacob/Israel, also known as the Jews.
I am also saying that faith is not a prerequisite to salvation, never was and never has been since dead men in sin do not have faith but are dead in trespasses and sin.
God was the one to approach Abram and make covenant with him. God is the One who initiated the covenants and God is the One who does the saving and only because of a book of life of the lamb slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world. All God is doing is following a preordained plan of salvation of one group of people above all peoples of the earth, a people God declares holy and special.
All 66 "books" of the Hebrew bible record this plan of God towards a Hebrew people and records His dealing with this people throughout human history. This bible records Hebrew history, culture, religion, people, events, and everything else you find in its pages that have to do with the Hebrew people and nation, a people known as the children of Israel.

There is no "accept the animal sacrifice into your heart and you shall be saved," nor is there a formula for salvation such as "confess with your mouth and believe in your heart the animal sacrifice and you shall be saved." And if it was not required in the Old Testament neither, is it required under the New Covenant. God saves merely on His own will to save and there is nothing men can do to effect God's will upon anyone to salvation. Scripture cannot be broken. If there is no Old Testament precedent there is no New Covenant reality.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Neither the NIV or this lexicon agree with you

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (NIV) — 29 This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes.”



15. to create† — to bring into existence. Stems: qal, 4. See also קנה. Related Topics: Cosmology; Creation Myths; Creation; New Creation; Myth.
qal
Am 5:8 עֹשֵׂ֨ה כִימָ֜ה וּכְסִ֗יל
Ec 3:11 אֶת־הַכֹּ֥ל עָשָׂ֖ה
Ec 7:14 גַּ֣ם אֶת־זֶ֤ה לְעֻמַּת־זֶה֙ עָשָׂ֣ה הָֽאֱלֹהִ֔ים
Ec 7:29 אֲשֶׁ֨ר עָשָׂ֧ה הָאֱלֹהִ֛ים
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Hebrew Bible (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

there is no sense of animal sacrifice in the passage

Ecclesiastes 7:27–29 (KJV 1900) — 27 Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account: 28 Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found. 29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

There is no hint of animal sacrifices here

Doesn't have to be. It was already the vehicle by which God made His people upright yearly until the lamb of God offer Himself as per covenant for the children of Israel forever.

 

[TomL]

Doesn't have to be. It was already the vehicle by which God made His people upright yearly until the lamb of God offer Himself as per covenant for the children of Israel forever.

The blood of bulls and goats can never take away sin

Hebrews 10:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


And it is Christ's blood which obtains redemption for us

Hebrews 9:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

You prove once again you do not believe New covenant scripture

 

[TedT]

Name one person other than Jesus who, by their own free will, was never sinful.

Since i contend that only sinful spirits are born into this world as per Mat 13:36-39, I can't find any human that was never sinful but I do find non-sinful people who were passed over for being born as human amng the holy ad elect angels, including Michael and Gabriel to name two.

 

[TomL]

4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth
the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers,
and of whom
as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom. 9:4–5.

This is the Word of God.
Believe it without changing it, adding to it, breaking it, or subtracting it for it covers all one needs to know as to the ownership of Jehovah God and His covenants.

So is this

Romans 11:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Well; because of unbelief they (many Israelites)were broken off, and thou (gentiles who believe) standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

 

[TedT]

The better question is why would a loving God create people he destines to eternal destruction

Good morning TomL,
as you know from the post of mine which you quoted, I believe that GOD let us make our own free will decisions about our eternal fate without any predestination to that fate.

But is seems to me that you introduce this question to slip it by me that you do not give your answer as to why HE would have us created in a corrupt and evil place of suffering and death...

There are only two option

Either God allows it to happen or he causes it to happen

You tell me what is the better option for a loving God

My problem with your definition of our free will after being created on earth, an earth cursed and corrupt, is that, in this definition, HE has created us against a stacked deck from which we had no chance to be holy by our free will! My proof is that no one, not one person, ever came thru mortal life holy by his own free will, excluding Christ. Only God Himslef could go thu life on earth and not become a sinner! How does that prove our free will here on earth? And no one who does choose to become a sinner can escape the consequences of this decision except by the gift of grace thru faith from our Lord??!!! How does that prove our free will in our salvation?

We know that we can only become evil by our own free will decision to be evil since GOD cannot create evil people but it is obvious to me that the earth cannot be the place of that choice if GOD truly loved us and was righteous toward us. That is, HE would never create us into a cursed corrupt situation when our moral choices are so perfectly stacked against holiness.

 

[TedT]

There's a simple answer to this, but nobody seems to know it.

Why are you so insistent on ignoring the holy elect angels???

 

[TomL]

Good morning TomL,
as you know from the post of mine which you quoted, I believe that GOD let us make our own free will decisions about our eternal fate without any predestination to that fate.

Great

But is seems to me that you introduce this question to slip it by me that you do not give your answer as to why HE would have us created in a corrupt and evil place of suffering and death...

Why ask me I am not God?

As i noted there are two choices

either he allows it or he determines it,

if you agree with free will you must believe he allows it as I do.

Certainly I can speculate that free will is a necessity if men are going to have a loving relationship with God

My problem with your definition of our free will after being created on earth, an earth cursed and corrupt, is that, in this definition, HE has created us against a stacked deck from which we had no chance to be holy by our free will!

Oh but he provides a method by which we can be holy and blameless before him in love

We have access to that by a free will decision of faith in Christ

My proof is that no one, not one person, ever came thru mortal life holy by his own free will, excluding Christ. Only God Himslef could go thu life on earth and not become a sinner! How does that prove our free will here on earth? And no one who does choose to become a sinner can escape the consequences of this decision except by the gift of grace thru faith from our Lord??!!! How does that prove our free will in our salvation?

Quite simply that grace is not irresistible. You can accept that grace and believe on Christ or you can refuse it

We know that we can only become evil by our own free will decision to be evil since GOD cannot create evil people but it is obvious to me that the earth cannot be the place of that choice if GOD truly loved us and was righteous toward us. That is, HE would never create us into a cursed corrupt situation when our moral choices are so perfectly stacked against holiness.

Um our free will can receive or not receive Christ

Our stay on earth is the only chance we have of making that free will decision. Afterwards is the judgment

Yet here we are

 

[SteveB]

No, I am saying that God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew and his seed, and his seed is Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob's children a people we know today as the twelve tribes of Jacob/Israel, also known as the Jews.

Good to see.

I am also saying that faith is not a prerequisite to salvation, never was and never has been since dead men in sin do not have faith but are dead in trespasses and sin.

Interesting....
It appears that Jesus says differently.

Mar 16:16 WEB He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.

Joh 3:18 WEB He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only born Son of God.

Paul references Genesis 15:6, Psalms 32, and other Old Testament passages throughout Romans and Galatians.
Faith is indeed a necessity to be saved.
Hebrews 11 deals with this too!

What is your definition of faith?

God was the one to approach Abram and make covenant with him.

yep.

God is the One who initiated the covenants and God is the One who does the saving

Yep.

and only because of a book of life of the lamb slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world.

And what do you base this on?

All God is doing is following a preordained plan of salvation of one group of people above all peoples of the earth, a people God declares holy and special.

And what do you base this on?

All 66 "books" of the Hebrew bible record this plan of God towards a Hebrew people and records His dealing with this people throughout human history.

Hebrew bible? Where do the other 27 books come from?
I'm acquainted with 39 books in the Hebrew bible.
Genesis through Malachi.

This bible records Hebrew history, culture, religion, people, events, and everything else you find in its pages that have to do with the Hebrew people and nation, a people known as the children of Israel.

Yep.

There is no "accept the animal sacrifice into your heart and you shall be saved," nor is there a formula for salvation such as "confess with your mouth and believe in your heart the animal sacrifice and you shall be saved."

where did you get the idea that such was the case?

And if it was not required in the Old Testament

Why then did YHVH spend 4 books on detailing the righteousness of the law and commandments to Moses and Israel?

neither, is it required under the New Covenant.

faith in Jesus is the requirement to experience the life of YHVH.

God saves merely on His own will to save and there is nothing men can do to effect God's will upon anyone to salvation.

so you don't actually have to turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus?
if he wants to save, he saves, and if not, regardless of what you do, you can't be saved?

Scripture cannot be broken.

this is true.

If there is no Old Testament precedent there is no New Covenant reality.

Then I'd say that scripture can be broken, according to your own statement here.

 

[TomL]

I am also saying that faith is not a prerequisite to salvation, never was and never has been since dead men in sin do not have faith but are dead in trespasses and sin.

You really do not believe the New Testament do you.

John 3:14–18 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 3:36 (NASB 2020) — 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.