Trying to understand Dispensationalism

Not all who believe in a literal millennium and Christ 2nd Coming at the end of the great tribulation believe everything taught by dispensationalism . Just like many Calvinists see things differently and don’t agree on many things Calvin taught. So you can’t throw the baby out with the bath water and lump everyone into one pile.
"... the bad tree bears bad fruit ... nor can a bad tree produce good fruit." Matthew 7:17-18 "Dispensationalism" was a bad tree from the beginning, not taught in the scripture, so to accept any part of it, is to accept bad fruit.
 
"... the bad tree bears bad fruit ... nor can a bad tree produce good fruit." Matthew 7:17-18 "Dispensationalism" was a bad tree from the beginning, not taught in the scripture, so to accept any part of it, is to accept bad fruit.
Is everything you believe 100% biblical without error ? Just curious
 
Is everything you believe 100% biblical without error ? Just curious
That reminds me of what a Bible school teacher once said: "Has anyone ever said to you, 'You always think you are so right!'? The teacher's answer: "Of course I think I'm right- if I thought I was wrong, I would believe something else."

Yes, I could be wrong, but when my beliefs are corroborated with scriptures, obviously I think they are correct. If someone shows me, however, that I have been misunderstanding or misinterpreting any scripture, and they can give other scripture to support their views (because scripture supports and interprets other scripture), then I am perfectly willing to change my mind.

I have given many scriptural evidences of the error of the "dispensational" system. So far, I haven't seen any scriptural evidence which refutes what I have said. I welcome it, but it seems that dps just want to TELL you what they believe, without any scripture to back it up. Or they will give you one or two dozen "addresses" of verses, oftentimes without even quoting the verses, and then say, "See, these verses prove my point." Ryrie does that in his books. He'll say something like: "The rapture of the church is seven years before Christ's return." Then he'll give 10 to 20 addresses to verses, quote none of them, and then move on to the next false point. That's not teaching, that's avoiding any and all challenges by those who actually read the verses he has listed.

The Bible has only two great divisions - the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Nowhere does it speak of seven time periods or 3 time periods or any other number of time periods, where God deals differently with man in each period. Where does the scripture say these things? Yet, the man-made doctrine mislabeled "dispensationalism" (because "dispensation" does NOT mean a time period - the Greek word means either "stewardship" or "administration") makes such a claim.

Can anybody provide the scriptures that support such a false claim?
 
That reminds me of what a Bible school teacher once said: "Has anyone ever said to you, 'You always think you are so right!'? The teacher's answer: "Of course I think I'm right- if I thought I was wrong, I would believe something else."

Yes, I could be wrong, but when my beliefs are corroborated with scriptures, obviously I think they are correct. If someone shows me, however, that I have been misunderstanding or misinterpreting any scripture, and they can give other scripture to support their views (because scripture supports and interprets other scripture), then I am perfectly willing to change my mind.

I have given many scriptural evidences of the error of the "dispensational" system. So far, I haven't seen any scriptural evidence which refutes what I have said. I welcome it, but it seems that dps just want to TELL you what they believe, without any scripture to back it up. Or they will give you one or two dozen "addresses" of verses, oftentimes without even quoting the verses, and then say, "See, these verses prove my point." Ryrie does that in his books. He'll say something like: "The rapture of the church is seven years before Christ's return." Then he'll give 10 to 20 addresses to verses, quote none of them, and then move on to the next false point. That's not teaching, that's avoiding any and all challenges by those who actually read the verses he has listed.

The Bible has only two great divisions - the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Nowhere does it speak of seven time periods or 3 time periods or any other number of time periods, where God deals differently with man in each period. Where does the scripture say these things? Yet, the man-made doctrine mislabeled "dispensationalism" (because "dispensation" does NOT mean a time period - the Greek word means either "stewardship" or "administration") makes such a claim.

Can anybody provide the scriptures that support such a false claim?
Is there a future period of great tribulation that has yet to be fulfilled ?
 
Is there a future period of great tribulation that has yet to be fulfilled ?
Throughout all of time, there has been tribulation for godly people. But the great tribulation that Jesus speaks of appears to be the awful time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. There is no scripture that specifically speaks of a future seven year tribulation.
 
Throughout all of time, there has been tribulation for godly people. But the great tribulation that Jesus speaks of appears to be the awful time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. There is no scripture that specifically speaks of a future seven year tribulation.
So Christs 2nd Coming already happened correct ?
 
"... the bad tree bears bad fruit ... nor can a bad tree produce good fruit." Matthew 7:17-18 "Dispensationalism" was a bad tree from the beginning, not taught in the scripture, so to accept any part of it, is to accept bad fruit.
"... the bad tree bears bad fruit ... nor can a bad tree produce good fruit." Matthew 7:17-18 "preterism" was a bad tree from the beginning, not taught in the scripture, so to accept any part of it, is to accept bad fruit.

hope this helps !!!
 
So Christs 2nd Coming already happened correct ?
Somewhere along the line, you must have gotten the impression that I am full preterist. I am not and never have been. I am partial-preterist. No, of course not, Christ has not come the 2nd time. I agree with you that full preterism is a false teaching, since there is no scriptural support that Christ has already returned.
By the way, partial-preterism came FIRST, going all the way back to the early church and has been believed by many ever since. Later, the false view of full-preterism arose, many say in the early to mid 1600's.
So partial-preterism was NEVER a fruit of full-preterism. Nor was full-preterism a fruit of partial-preterism, rather it was a twisting of the truth of partial-preterism.
"Dispensationalism", on the other hand is a SYSTEM of unscriptural doctrines, so large and complex that C. I. Scofield thought it necessary to create his own study Bible, with the express purpose of FILLING the margins of the Word of God with the unscriptural teachings of John Nelson Darby - in effect placing Darby's teachings on the same level with God's Word.
Thus, any portion of Darby's new doctrine is bad fruit, just as his whole "dispensational" system (the bad tree) is also.

Therefore, when you use the word "preterism", the FALSE IMPLICATION is that BOTH full and partial preterism are equally BAD DOCTRINE. This is NOT TRUE. If you are honest, you should either differentiate between the two or condemn BOTH as FALSE TEACHING.

To lump those of us who are partial-preterists in with those who are full-preterists by simply labeling all of us as preterists is dishonest.

hope this helps!!!
 
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C. I. Scofield teaches Darby's belief that the Kingdom of God (which he basically sees as the Kingdom of Israel with Jesus sitting on a throne in Jerusalem), was postponed when Jesus' offer of the kingdom was rejected, until a future time (the Millennium). So, according to Darby/Scofield, when the kingdom was rejected by Israel (which they say began in Mat. 11:21), He no longer preached the Kingdom of God, but He CHANGED His message to focus on the church and no longer Israel. His new message was one of rest and service (Mat. 11:28-30)
.
Of course this is blatantly false. During His entire ministry Jesus NEVER stopped preaching that "the kingdom of God was at hand" or near, nor did His disciples. Even when Jesus sent out the seventy in Luke 10:1-11, He told them to preach "the kingdom of God has come near to you." Even after His resurrection, Jesus spoke to the apostles about the kingdom of God, which, at that time, HAD ALREADY BEGUN. Acts 1:3

What was that kingdom? It was the King reigning from his position in heaven at the right hand of God.
After Jesus was raised, the message was changed from "the kingdom has come near" to "the kingdom is NOW" because Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God Acts (2:33), reigning from heaven. It was NEVER about an earthly kingdom of Israel in the Millennium. Jesus told Pilate, "My kingdom is NOT of this world", so there is no 1000 year earthly reign of Christ, as the "dispensationalists" would have us believe. If there was, then His kingdom would be of this world.

In fact the message of "dispensationalism" even discourages people from entering the kingdom of God NOW, saying that that is a future kingdom.
But entering into the kingdom of God NOW, is actually being saved.

Paul said in Colossian 1:13 "For He rescued us from the domain (or kingdom) of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son."

So to preach that people can't even enter into the kingdom of God NOW, as Darby and Scofield did, is the same as saying, "You can't be saved now." This is a seriously evil message that hinders people from being saved.
 
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The message of all the prophets was NOT the restoration of the Jewish nation, but the sufferings of Christ and the eternal and spiritual kingdom of God. (Acts 3:13-18 - Peter's second sermon after Pentecost)
 
I'm reading a fascinating book called The Gospel of the Kingdom with an Examination of Modern Dispensationalism by Philip Mauro. He wrote the book in 1928, almost 100 years ago! He died in 1952 at the age of 93. He was born in 1859. The following is a quote from page 5 in his introduction to his book:

"It is obvious that, in a matter involving truth of God so vital to His entire household, personal considerations must needs be disregarded. I greatly regret having to mention by name the "Scofield Reference Bible", but that cannot be avoided, inasmuch as it is unhappily the case that THAT PUBLICATION HAS BEEN, AND IS, THE CHIEF AGENCY FOR PROMULGATING THE ERRORS AGAINST WHICH I FEEL CALLED UPON TO PROTEST. I deeply regret having to bring any man's name into the discussion. But we must deal with conditions as we find them. IT IS A MATTER OF GRIEF TO ME THAT A BOOK SHOULD EXIST WHEREIN THE CORRUPT WORDS OF MORTAL MAN ARE PRINTED ON THE SAME PAGE WITH THE HOLY WORDS OF THE LIVING GOD; this mixture of the precious and the vile being made an article of sale, entitled a 'Bible', and distinguished by a man's name."

Even in 1928 Philip Mauro referred to Dispensationalism as "modern" and a "novelty" and a "newly invented system", making his belief clear, that no such system of beliefs existed in "all the Christian centuries before". page 6 last paragraph
In that same page and paragraph, Mauro admits that he, at first, "was among those who eagerly embraced" the doctrine, and even "earnestly pressed it upon my fellow Christians ... (but) the time came (it was just ten years ago) (1918) when the inconsistencies and self-contradictions of the system itself, and above all, the impossibility of reconciling its main positions with the plain statements of the Word of God, (which) became so glaringly evident that I could not do otherwise than renounce it."

I also have Mauro's book "The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation", which I have not read yet. He has written at least two dozen books.
 
Is there any justification for recognizing the time in which a Christian now lives as different from the time in which Adam and Eve lived prior to the fall? Well, of course it is, how is it different? The same questions might be asked in regard to other times as well. What about the time prior to Noah’s flood?… They were like totally running amok. The time Israel was in Egypt?… Israel’s conquest of Canaan?… Israel under the Judges and Kings?… Daniel’s day?… When Israel was under Babylonian captivity?

In Dispensationalism I see that there are at least five different periods with their own distinctiveness:

1. Man in a period prior to the fall
2. Man as fallen
3. Man under the old covenant, before the Cross
4. Man since the historic fact of Christ’s Cross and resurrection
5. Redeemed man as ruling with Christ over a changed earth.

I think it would be hard to find any sincere Bible-believer who is willing to raise issue against such clear and basic divisions in the Word of God, whether they are called dispensations or not. In this sense, every true believer of Bible-truth is a dispensationalist even when the kindred camp most sharply contrasted with dispensationalism—namely, Covenant Theology Is introduced to the conversation.
It is not the development(dispensation) of God's word to man that is the question, but the erroneous doctrine(s) that were made by men and heralded under 'Dispensation'.

The #1 heresy of 'Dispensation' is the separation of Jew from Gentile in Christ.
 
The message of all the prophets was NOT the restoration of the Jewish nation, but the sufferings of Christ and the eternal and spiritual kingdom of God. (Acts 3:13-18 - Peter's second sermon after Pentecost)
Please keep in mind that if the Jewish people as a nation received their Messiah then as a nation they would of been Restored unto Salvation.

We KNOW this to be true because the LORD said so = Matthew 23:37-39

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
 
It is not the development(dispensation) of God's word to man that is the question, but the erroneous doctrine(s) that were made by men and heralded under 'Dispensation'.

The #1 heresy of 'Dispensation' is the separation of Jew from Gentile in Christ.
Although if you go by DavidTree's reasoning, you could literally have hundreds of such divisions, so the number is totally arbitrary, not Biblical by any stretch. There are other problems with their beliefs about these divisions, however.

1. They believe that each period is totally unlike any other period, which is false right from the start. For example, they would say that there's no Law in the period of Grace and there's no Grace in the period of Law. Both are incorrect. They would say there's no Human government in the period of Promise, also not true. Abraham and his sons came into contact with lots of governments. Or there's no Conscience in the other periods, when in fact, God has always dealt with man, appealing to his conscience.
So there's really only 2 great divisons in the Bible - the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

2. They like to show a diagram of seven horizontal squares, saying that each square represents one of the "seven dispensations" implying that each "dispensation" is 1000 years long. That's very convenient (but it's not true), since the 7th square is the Millennium, which is 1000 years.
The problem is that some of their periods are much less than 1000 years, by several hundreds of years, others are longer than 1000 years.

It is impossible that the "dispensation of Innocence", which is Adam and Eve's time in the Garden of Eden before the fall, was 1000 years long. How do we know this? Because Genesis 5:3 tells us that Adam lived 130 years when he became the father of Seth. Adam was created on the 6th Day, so what recorded events happened between his creation and the time he had his son, Seth? Well God rested on the 7th Day, the fall of Man, their punishment, He kicked them out of Eden, the story of Cain and Abel. Then we read that Adam, at 130, has Seth. So notice that the 7th Day is within the 130 years of Adam's life, so the 7th Day Must be less than 130 years. In fact, I believe the 7th Day was Much less - just 24 hours like the days are today. So the "dispensation of innocence" ended with the Fall of Man, which also occurred during that 130 period of Adam's life, so there's no way it could be anywhere close to 1000 years.
Also the period of the Law was much longer than 1000 years - it lasted around 1300 to 1500 years.

3. Also they say that each "dispensation" has its own method of getting saved. One example is, they say, during the Millennium, people will get saved by obeying the Mosaic Law. How unbelieveable! Man has always been saved by grace through faith - from Abel to us today - that won't change.

These are just the tip of the iceberg, when it comes to problems with "dispensationalism".
 
Although if you go by DavidTree's reasoning, you could literally have hundreds of such divisions, so the number is totally arbitrary, not Biblical by any stretch. There are other problems with their beliefs about these divisions, however.

1. They believe that each period is totally unlike any other period, which is false right from the start. For example, they would say that there's no Law in the period of Grace and there's no Grace in the period of Law. Both are incorrect. They would say there's no Human government in the period of Promise, also not true. Abraham and his sons came into contact with lots of governments. Or there's no Conscience in the other periods, when in fact, God has always dealt with man, appealing to his conscience.
So there's really only 2 great divisons in the Bible - the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

2. They like to show a diagram of seven horizontal squares, saying that each square represents one of the "seven dispensations" implying that each "dispensation" is 1000 years long. That's very convenient (but it's not true), since the 7th square is the Millennium, which is 1000 years.
The problem is that some of their periods are much less than 1000 years, by several hundreds of years, others are longer than 1000 years.

It is impossible that the "dispensation of Innocence", which is Adam and Eve's time in the Garden of Eden before the fall, was 1000 years long. How do we know this? Because Genesis 5:3 tells us that Adam lived 130 years when he became the father of Seth. Adam was created on the 6th Day, so what recorded events happened between his creation and the time he had his son, Seth? Well God rested on the 7th Day, the fall of Man, their punishment, He kicked them out of Eden, the story of Cain and Abel. Then we read that Adam, at 130, has Seth. So notice that the 7th Day is within the 130 years of Adam's life, so the 7th Day Must be less than 130 years. In fact, I believe the 7th Day was Much less - just 24 hours like the days are today. So the "dispensation of innocence" ended with the Fall of Man, which also occurred during that 130 period of Adam's life, so there's no way it could be anywhere close to 1000 years.
Also the period of the Law was much longer than 1000 years - it lasted around 1300 to 1500 years.

3. Also they say that each "dispensation" has its own method of getting saved. One example is, they say, during the Millennium, people will get saved by obeying the Mosaic Law. How unbelieveable! Man has always been saved by grace through faith - from Abel to us today - that won't change.

These are just the tip of the iceberg, when it comes to problems with "dispensationalism".
Excellent Post.

What are you referring = "If you go by DavidTree's reasoning" - ???
For or against?
 
Excellent Post.

What are you referring = "If you go by DavidTree's reasoning" - ???
For or against?
Looking at #153, you said:
It is not the development(dispensation) of God's word to man that is the question, but the erroneous doctrine(s) that were made by men and heralded under 'Dispensation'.
You seem to be saying that dividing all of history into seven dispensations is not the question (or the problem), rather the doctrines of dispensationalism are the main issue.
I'm saying that BOTH are a problem and an issue. To arbitrarily divide all of history into seven periods (or five or ten or 100 or whatever number you choose), when the Bible itself only specifies two great divisions, the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant, is a problem and should be addressed just as all their false doctrines should be addressed.
 
There is NOT a word of Biblical proof for the following:
1. That a future Roman prince will make a covenant with many Jews.
2. That the supposed covenant will be for a term of one week.
3. That it will have for its purpose to permit the Jews to resume their ancient and long abolished temple sacrifices.
4. That the supposed prince will break the supposed covenant in the middle of the week, and thereby "cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease".
5. That the 70th week of Daniel does not follow immediately after the 69th week, but it is a future seven years in the end times called the seven year tribulation. It is sometimes put this way: This entire church age of over 2024 years is a "parenthesis" between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel's prophecy. (If Gabriel knew that there was a huge gap of time between the 69th week and the 70th week, but didn't tell Daniel that, then all who read his words have been grossly misled.) (I don't think Gabriel would mislead anyone.)

Each and ALL five propositions must be established by God's word to confirm the "Dispensationalism" scheme. Yet there is not one word of proof for even one of them. This "interpretation" has no basis whatever in the scriptures. It is simply imagination and unprovable assumptions.
Regarding #5, when Jeremiah prophesied 70 years of captivity in Babylon, did the Lord really mean 69 consecutive years of captivity, followed by a huge time gap, after which the 70th week of captivity occurs? Daniel knew better. He knew they were 70 consecutive years. He also knew that Gabriel was speaking of 70 consecutive weeks of years. It is like a law of language that expressed time units are connected together without any breaks.
 
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It is not the development(dispensation) of God's word to man that is the question, but the erroneous doctrine(s) that were made by men and heralded under 'Dispensation'.

The #1 heresy of 'Dispensation' is the separation of Jew from Gentile in Christ.
Galatians was written in 49 AD by the apostle Paul. It was his first letter to gentiles. Romans was written in AD 58, nine years later. Paul said this to the Galatians.


Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There are male and female in the body of Christ. I know this because I have read the pastoral epistles, which were written much later, where the functions of some members in the body are restricted in certain areas of ministry due to gender and calling. The gender was not negated by becoming Christians. There are still Jews and gentiles in the church in 49 AD. So the meaning here is that each member in the body has equal standing as a child of God by receiving the promise by faith.

Here is what Paul said about himself some nine years later in a passage where context is important.

Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Paul is offering himself as proof of that. Gentiles do not become Jews, or Jacob, or Israel when they get saved like some teach.
 
Galatians was written in 49 AD by the apostle Paul. It was his first letter to gentiles. Romans was written in AD 58, nine years later. Paul said this to the Galatians.


Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There are male and female in the body of Christ. I know this because I have read the pastoral epistles, which were written much later, where the functions of some members in the body are restricted in certain areas of ministry due to gender and calling. The gender was not negated by becoming Christians. There are still Jews and gentiles in the church in 49 AD. So the meaning here is that each member in the body has equal standing as a child of God by receiving the promise by faith.

Here is what Paul said about himself some nine years later in a passage where context is important.

Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Paul is offering himself as proof of that. Gentiles do not become Jews, or Jacob, or Israel when they get saved like some teach.

Thank You for your post to which i agree in this = Our flesh remains Jew & Gentile but our New Birth in MESSIAH makes ONE FLOCK and ONE FAMILY of GOD = with NO DISTINCTION between the TWO as we are all now made ONE in the BODY of MESSIAH = Gospel, Romans, Ephesians, Galatians and Revelation.

Some info on DavidTree is always helpful.

i was born into roman catholic parents and raised as such while living in a community that has many Jews with two synagogues.

As such, many of my friends are Jewish as were some of the girls i dated.
i received the Gospel in my heart at a home church lead by former catholics who were set free by the Glorious Gospel of MESSIAH.

Perhaps growing up in a Jewish community was part of God's plan for my life as i married a Jewish woman from the same community even though we never knew each other as we are 6 years apart in age.

HAPPILY married now for 33 Years to a Daughter of Abraham who also received YESHUA as her Redeemer and Savior according to the Torah, the OT Prophets and the Gospel = "the Gospel is to the Jew first and also to the Gentile." Romans 2:10

Each week we have two alternating rabbis that come over to our home and put on tephillin with our two sons.
Each week we share a little of the Gospel from Torah and OT Prophets to them = SEED Planting = John 4:34-38

Our children(now adults) are raised in the TRUTH of Scripture and the rich history of the Jewish People thru whom MESSIAH came.

We are now witnessing prophetic events surrounding Israel/Jerusalem and we pray for the Jewish People to be SAVED.

We KNOW that when the LORD Returns HE will open their eyes as a Nation = Matthew 23:37-39 and 1 Corinthians chapter 15

HOWEVER, before this occurs it is going to get very ugly for the Jewish People and the world = Zechariah ch14 and Daniel ch12

PLEASE lift our family up in prayer as we witness to our Jewish friends and in particular my wife's father(Lee) who is at the end of his life.
Also pray for the two rabbis - Asher and Samuel who come to our home.
Samuel is very open and greatly enjoys conversing with me.

Thank You again for your love in Christ for us.
 
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