Transmitting The Fallen Nature

[praise_yeshua]

You're most probably right although maybe more like a murder/suicide pact for Christ went willingly yet "forgive them for they know not what they do". The irony in a human thinking murder/suicide pact, the murderer thinks it's love that motivates them but in reality, is selfishness.

When Divine love is at play, real justice is done.

Is it justice for YOU to die for sinners?

You're actually insisting that God MUST die for sinners or He is not Just.

He is JUST without any sense of demands from sinners.

 

[GeneZ]

That is a claim without evidence requiring your many assumptions relative to the Atonement.

You have continually failed to provide a single Scripture demanding that Justice REQUIRED the death of Christ.

I have to admit. It was a little skewed...


Justice did not require it. Its required that God's justice do it.
Its God's Holiness (Integrity) that required the Cross.
What God's holiness required, God's justice was then the means to fulfill it.

Christ's death was the requirement to fulfill the Law of God's Holiness. Required in order for man to be reconciled to God.

 

[GeneZ]

Is it justice for YOU to die for sinners?

You're actually insisting that God MUST die for sinners or He is not Just.

He is JUST without any sense of demands from sinners.

It was required to die as man's substitute if God were to keep man for Himself.
As man was without atonement? Man deserved death and to be not allowed to be accepted in God's presence.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I have to admit. It was a little skewed...


Justice did not require it. Its required that God's justice do it.
Its God's Holiness (Integrity) that required the Cross.
What God's holiness required, God's justice was then the means to fulfill it.

Christ's death was the requirement to fulfill the Law of God's Holiness. Required in order for man to be reconciled to God.

Distinction without any meaningful difference.

I once knew a man that had been divorced that wanted to become assistant pastor. They had a church meeting and the guy insisted that he wasn't going to be assistant pastor. He was simply going to be a "assistant to the pastor"......

One person asked (not going to tell you who it was, but I'll give you one guess)..... "What is the difference"....

End of consideration......

Explain the difference.

There is no right to Eternal life for anyone/anything.

1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

There is only death for those without Eternal life.

 

[GeneZ]

That is a claim without evidence requiring your many assumptions relative to the Atonement.

You have continually failed to provide a single Scripture demanding that Justice REQUIRED the death of Christ.

Hebrews 9:22


In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.​

​

 

[praise_yeshua]

It was required to die as man's substitute if God were to keep man for Himself.
As man was without atonement? Man deserved death and to be not allowed to be accepted in God's presence.

There is no requirement for a substitute relative to justice. Justice would simply allow man to get exact what he deserves. There is no right to Eternal life... period.

 

[GeneZ]

There is no requirement for a substitute relative to justice.

What was a lamb without spot and blemish for?

As a "substitute."

But the animals could not be a perfect substitute for a man.

That is why John the Baptist said in John 1:29b,

“Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!


.

 

[GeneZ]

There is no requirement for a substitute relative to justice. Justice would simply allow man to get exact what he deserves. There is no right to Eternal life... period.

You behave like there was no Atonement included in God's Law.

 

[sawdust]

There is only death for those without Eternal life.

Does this mean Adam would have died anyway, even if he had not sinned? I'm pretty sure we agreed Adam did not have eternal life when he was created therefore if what you said is true, death for Adam was inevitable with or without sin.

Justice would simply allow man to get exact what he deserves.

Man did get what he deserves, in the body of Christ. If there can be no substitution then Christ's resurrection has no meaning for us. If He cannot substitute himself for our deserved death then He most definitely shouldn't be a substitute for our undeserved resurrection to life.

 

[GeneZ]

There is no right to Eternal life for anyone/anything.

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—


John 1:12

 

[civic]

Hebrews 9:22​

​

​

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.​

​

Since when is the innocent shedding of blood defined anywhere in scripture as justice ?

 

[praise_yeshua]

You behave like there was no Atonement included in God's Law.

There were representations that could never do away with sin. All it could do is cause sin to be remembered......

Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

Contrasted against the work of Christ.

Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—


John 1:12

Correct. Through the Atonement. Theologically, there is no right before the Atonement. It is Grace and mercy. Not Justice that establishes a right to Eternal life.

 

[sawdust]

Since when is the innocent shedding of blood defined anywhere in scripture as justice ?

I am beginning to wonder ... how exactly do you define justice?

 

[sawdust]

Correct. Through the Atonement. Theologically, there is no right before the Atonement. It is Grace and mercy. Not Justice that establishes a right to Eternal life.

You seem to keep missing that if God had not made right (executed justice), grace and mercy could not be extended, not to the extent of reconciliation and being given eternal life.

 

[GeneZ]

Since when is the innocent shedding of blood defined anywhere in scripture as justice ?

​

​

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, ​

and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." Hebrews 9:22​

Your argument is not with me.

And, you are basing your argument on human terms. Not God's terms.

Justice of God required it. Past tense. For it has now been fulfilled by the Cross.

You do not agree with that?

Why are you trying to reason from a human perspective?
When the Justice being discussed pertains to God's Justice?

 

[GeneZ]

I am beginning to wonder ... how exactly do you define justice?

He is thinking on terms of human justice only.
Not God's justice from God's perspective of perfect Righteousness.

As long as it stays within that realm of human justice there is no reasoning possible.

 

[civic]

Justice means giving each person what he or she deserves or, in more traditional terms, giving each person his or her due. Justice and fairness are closely related terms that are often today used interchangeably.

 

[civic]

The cross was substitution, forgiveness , atonement , covering, etc. not justice .

 

[praise_yeshua]

I am beginning to wonder ... how exactly do you define justice?

Can you provide your definition?

Before you answer... consider.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Christ wasn't righteous by keeping the law. Nor can righteousness come from keeping the law. Not that you're dealing with this facts. You're skipping them to attack what you see as being "vulnerable" to attack.

Establish righteousness. Is there Righteousness without Justice?

The answer is yes. However, your position does not establish this. There are many issues with your position.