praise_yeshua
Well-known member
So you haven't been taught from the Grace of God shown in Jesus Christ?
Transmitting The Fallen Nature
- Thread starter Olde Tymer
- Start date
So you haven't been taught from the Grace of God shown in Jesus Christ?
GeneZ
Well-known member
I might appear lazy to you because I do not want to be very bothered with someone who can not even explain Titus 2:11-12 with a correct and logical approach. Why bother? It would just end up with more inability to comprehend.
Now if you are only playing the Devil's advocate to see what others may come up with? Then you should say so.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Hi brother. Life requires Grace. We shouldn't seek to earn righteousness.
How is God killing Himself in Christ "Justice".
When was the last time you served a sentence of death for someone else that set them free? If you've ever argued with a well learned Jew trained in Judaism, you will know this answer.
Like I told @dizerner At least admit that God was Gracious for a very long time before you placed your faith in Him. That is Longsuffering.
Does Justice include "Longsuffering"?
God deals with mutable man. As such, God changes His mind about sinners. The Immutable Nature of God always has the same answer. That is the Immutability in the nature of God lacking any division. This doesn't mean that God doesn't answer some differently than others.
Does God always speak the same way and in the same manner? Does this mean that God is divided?
Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
There would never be any sense of Grace. If God dealt with you/us according to our sin, then we would have been dead a long time ago. God was Longsuffering and Gracious to you.
Psa 103:8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
Psa 103:9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
Psa 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
Psa 103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Psa 103:13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.
Psa 103:14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.
If Justice were served to Adam, none of us would have been born. We have "hope" of Eternal life. The establishment of Eternal Life was Gracious established for us in Christ Jesus's Atonement.
ps. I'm back home and went over our conversation and intended to summarise our differences and give response but we covered so much ground I didn't know where to begin. I'm essentially just picking up where we left off.
Glad you're safe brother! Thank you for the conversation.
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You want me to say that I need to be taught by a "pastor"? That is what you want me to say. I gave you an answer you don't want to accept. That doesn't mean I didn't answer you.
I suppose you hate the words of John right?
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.
GeneZ
Well-known member
God was KILLING US in Christ.
Not killing God.
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20
......
GeneZ
Well-known member
Only if he is a good one....
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number
of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
2 Timothy 4:3
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I said nothing about earning righteousness. Christ was raised to life because He was righteous and He was righteous because He lived by faith. It was God's justice that raised Him to life just as much as it was His justice that put our sin to death in His body.
God is not killing Himself in Christ. God cannot die. He is destroying sin in Christ's body for he took our sin in His body.
1 Peter 2:24
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
I have never at any time said God is not gracious. Grace is God's policy. It is by grace we are not consumed. (Lam.3:22) It is by grace God dealt with sin. (Rom.5:8) It is by grace Christ was raised to life. (Rom.6:4) It is by grace we live and move and have our being. (Acts 17:28) It is by grace with which God empowers believers. (2Cor.12:9) It is by grace God sees His will done. (Eph.2:8) God's will is not executed apart from His grace.
God has never changed His mind about sinners. He has always overlooked our sin and not held us to the full reckoning with which we all should have made. (Acts 17:30) The Father was always going to deal with our sin in Christ, hence the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the would. He did not change His mind at all. It was always death to sin and life to righteousness.
Exactly!!
This is why God has not poured out His justice on us but reserved His judgement on sin for Christ to bear. What Christ bore on the Cross cannot be compared to the death we experience. We have never been truly forsaken as Christ was on the Cross. What He endured (while our sin was being judged) was permanent and if not for His righteousness, there would be no life of which to speak.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Actually... yes.
Many pastors used to order recorded classes by my pastor for their personal study.
He taught about 8 times a week. Only had Saturdays off to rest up.
Studied usually eight hours a day, and then went to church to teach.
When I was in Bible college the professor of ancient languages (he himself was associated with Harvard at one time) recommended to me the one who was to become my pastor. He studied from him. And, he himself was brilliant.
God will raise up what's needed to fill up a deficiency for those who know they have the need.
With the exception of only a few today, most pastors today follow a denominational format that limits thought and growth.
Being ordained in itself can be meaningless when it comes to having insight and progressively more comprehension.
Back in the 80's I gave a few recorded classes to an Anglican minister to listen to.
When I saw him the next time he told me that he took "copious notes" while listening.
Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know
that we who teach will be judged more strictly." James 3:1
If the Holy Spirit was being followed by all? We would find ourselves with only a few truly good teachers.
Yet, 2 Timothy 4:3 tells us just the opposite will happen.
Not a few will be the case!
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great
number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
Many denominations produce "ordained" ministers who were trained to follow their denomination's "program."Even the Rabbis I used to listen to who I sat before in synagogue in my youth were "ordained.'
My gift is not pastor teacher.
I have enjoyed some very good exchange and fellowship with various pastors..... In one church I was attending I was invited by the pastor at a men's morning study to have a seat up front next to him. He then told me I was there to answer questions given by the men. I was surprised he did that.
Not too long after, just before church service was to begin, he called me up front to speak with him. He handed me an envelope. He then told me that in it contained plane tickets and hotel expenses paid for. It was for a special NACIE training conference given by Billy Graham.
I was stunned.... I was not seeking anything. God just made it happen.
That did not happen because I am lazy. I study daily...I love to.. And, have done so for MANY YEARS.
I wish you well...
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GeneZ
Well-known member
I do not hate the words of John.
I find it ironic... John was definitely a man. And, the churches all had different pastors given by God to learn from.
That if that passage was to be interpreted as you suppose it to mean? That we have no need for any man to teach us?
It would mean what? That they had no need for John to teach them that principle!
That anointing John speaks of teaches us how to utilize and make use of the teachings we have received from anointed teachers of the Bible.
And, also. That we have no need for any man to teach us how to use what we have learned after having been taught.... We by the grace of God will know how to think with the Truth we had learned from those with the gift to teach..
We absolutely need pastor teachers to teach us Bible doctrine. Teach what we will need to have to think with by the Spirit working in the spiritual believer.
But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone
should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—
just as it has taught you, abide in him." 1Jn 2:27
If you leaning on that passage were as you presented it?
John should have told them?
You have no need for me (John) to teach you!
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I believe you're making a big mistake here. You believe that Christ "earned" value in the Incarnation to become a proper Atonement for sin. That is not true. He has ETERNAL value. I've argued this point for years with Jews that insist that keeping the "law" made Christ worthy.
The law giver has no such requirements.
I've started a thread in this particular form concerning this. I didn't realize it at the time that you had responded. "Great minds think alike"...
GeneZ
Well-known member
He had to be proven worthy before men. Not that He was not worthy.
But, as a man, He was to suffer as the means to prove He is the sacrifice that we can place our trust in.
Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect,
he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him." Hebrews 5:8-9
As God He did not have to be made perfect.
It was as a man? He had to be *proven* to be perfect before all men and angels.
He was the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world.
All lambs had to be inspected for imperfections before it could be found to be an acceptable sacrifice.
grace and peace ..............
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I guess you are one of those "few" that has found that "good pastor" of choice....
Do you realize just how self serving such comments as this are? It is sad to see everyone claiming they're immune to what everyone else experiences.
You're not ordained... right? Again. Self serving. I don't remember last time I told someone that I'm ordained. I don't remember it. I find no value in it myself.
I simply mentioned it because I meet someone's requirement for service. That is all it was. Meeting someone else's requirement for service.
I wouldn't brag about pleasing an Anglican. Anglicans serve a "false crown".
You fail to realize this happened immediately after the death of the apostles.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Notice "from among yourselves"........
As I said, the eyes and ears of the Body of Christ have long left this earth. Prove they haven't.
I'm sure you study what has been "served up" to you. I'm talking about abandoning commentary and existing teachings to embrace the evidence itself. Very few do.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Contrary to the Scriptures.
Joh 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
Joh 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
Joh 2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
Jesus didn't need to prove Himself to anyone. They all abandoned Him. Even his closest disciples didn't believe Him.
He set His own requirement to be a faithful High Priest. You are referencing the Empathy of the Priestly work of Christ. He learned our suffering through His own experience. Men mocked Him and beat Him because He refused to prove Himself to them.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Actually, how he endured that mocking and beating? Was in itself proving Himself to them!
The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, “Surely this was a righteous man.”
Luke 23:47
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
"The eclipse of the sun, the darkness upon the land, the earthquake, the rocks rent, and Jesus expire in so uncommon a manner"...
Might have made a difference.
GeneZ
Well-known member
That too was to be included. But not the reason.
Moses had phenomenal signs accompany him. Yet many amongst the Jews hated him.
No, you are misunderstanding what I am saying.
There is only one way for humanity to be righteous and that is to live by faith for it is God's word that makes one righteous and faith comes from the word of God.
Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
He is eternally righteous in His deity but it was not His deity being judged on the Cross but His humanity. His humanity was righteous because He lived by faith and the justice of God rose Him from the dead because just as the wages of sin is death, the wages of righteousness is life.
Proverbs 12:28
In the way of righteousness is life, And in its pathway there is no death.
I think the reason (possibly) others cannot see justice done in the Cross event is because it was love that motivated the Lord Jesus to become as a man and take our punishment but it was justice that saw Him put to death and also saw him raised to life.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Love with no justice makes the cross a suicide.
You're most probably right although maybe more like a murder/suicide pact for Christ went willingly yet "forgive them for they know not what they do". The irony in a human thinking murder/suicide pact, the murderer thinks it's love that motivates them but in reality, is selfishness.
When Divine love is at play, real justice is done.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
That is a claim without evidence requiring your many assumptions relative to the Atonement.
You have continually failed to provide a single Scripture demanding that Justice REQUIRED the death of Christ.
