Transmitting The Fallen Nature

[praise_yeshua]

You are not getting the truth. You are arguing over distractions away from the truth as a substitute for thinking you have truth.
Winning an argument does not mean you have truth. Only temporal truth at best.

You need a good pastor teacher. We all do.

Don't be lazy. Get the truth from God and the Scriptures. Don't let other men trick you. Don't believe me. Do the work yourself but don't trust others for things that are so vitally important.

 

[civic]

Don't be lazy. Get the truth from God and the Scriptures. Don't let other men trick you. Don't believe me. Do the work yourself but don't trust others for things that are so vitally important.

my 3 pastors get challenged by me on a weekly basis in our mens discipleship group on thursday mornings. they are just as fallible as I am.

 

[GeneZ]

Don't be lazy. Get the truth from God and the Scriptures. Don't let other men trick you. Don't believe me. Do the work yourself but don't trust others for things that are so vitally important.

Let's see...

Rule # 1.
You have no idea what you can not know unless you can exegete for yourself.
Or, learn from someone who can exegete.

You are not going to always get what is needed from simply reading translations and depending upon word studies.

I'll give you an example of something that humbled me when I was finally taught by someone having the preparation and integrity, able to study.

From the epistle of Titus. Titus 2:11-12.

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. ​

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to ​

live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age. ​

Tell me what you make of that, please?

Just you and God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Let's see...

Rule # 1.
You have no idea what you can not know unless you can exegete for yourself.
Or, learn from someone who can exegete.

You are not going to always get what is needed from simply reading translations and depending upon word studies.

Who said I did? I didn't.

I'll give you an example of something that humbled me when I was finally taught by someone having the preparation and integrity, able to study.

From the epistle of Titus. Titus 2:11-12.

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. ​

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to ​

live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age. ​

Tell me what you make of that, please?

Just you and God.

So you didn't get this from your pastor? I must ask that you make a choice. You said that I needed a pastor to teach me and then you ask me to seek God alone. Why the change? Are you seek to claim revelation that others do not have access themselves?

You're quoting a poor source.

1. Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Paul appeals to the manifestation God Incarnate in Jesus Christ. John preached the same.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

2. Tit 2:12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,

Self explanatory.

 

[GeneZ]

So you didn't get this from your pastor? I must ask that you make a choice. You said that I needed a pastor to teach me and then you ask me to seek God alone. Why the change? Are you seek to claim revelation that others do not have access themselves?

You're quoting a poor source.

1. Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Paul appeals to the manifestation God Incarnate in Jesus Christ. John preached the same.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

2. Tit 2:12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,

Self explanatory.

This part you skipped over...


For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to
live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.

Let's see how you can presume dogmatically as to what that "simply" and "obviously" means?

I am trying to show you something that we all need to know. Not to put you down.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This part you skipped over...


For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to
live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.

Let's see how you can presume dogmatically as to what that "simply" and "obviously" means?

I am trying to show you something that we all need to know. Not to put you down.

I didn't skip anything. The statement is self explanatory. That is why Paul didn't elaborate further.

So enlighten me. What am I missing? What isn't self evident in the statement?

 

[GeneZ]

I didn't skip anything. The statement is self explanatory. That is why Paul didn't elaborate further.

So enlighten me. What am I missing? What isn't self evident in the statement?

According to that Scripture?


For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to
live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.

In what manner does the grace of God "teach" us to say "No" to ungodliness?
Where do we learn this. and how?

 

[praise_yeshua]

According to that Scripture?


For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to
live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.

In what manner does the grace of God "teach" us to say "no" to ungodliness?

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

It is the Grace of God in Jesus Christ.

Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

 

[GeneZ]

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

It is the Grace of God in Jesus Christ.

Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

You do not know how to answer a question?
You keep changing the subject.


I asked you...

In what manner does the grace of God "teach" us to say "no" to ungodliness?

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to
live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.

grace and peace .........

 

[GeneZ]

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

It is the Grace of God in Jesus Christ.

Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Well...

I understand that you do not have the answer.

I would not have confronted you with my challenge if you did not make the following claim.

By all means. Provide evidence of my mistakes.

I don't believe that authority has been passed from the earlier church to anyone today. I can study the Scriptures and teachings of the apostles myself. As far as need..... We all NEED each other. The body fits together. I wish "pastors" would learn that they're not an authoritative source for anything. All the eyes and ears of the "Body" have long been gone from this earth.

There is no reason for you to reject me just because I've disagreed with you. Evidence is evidence. I will accept your evidence if it is true. Just know, this isn't the first time I've debated these subject. I have debated them for decades. Over and over again. I know your position because you have received it from someone else. I've made the effort to know the evidence myself.

Invite your pastor here if you like. We can discuss. Can your pastor can tell me what YOU believe.

I don't let other men set my theology for me.....After all, they will not answer for me when I face God.

You are wrong. Like it or not.. Each pastor must give account for what he has taught you and others to believe.

Each good pastor KNOWS this...

Those ones will study hard to show themselves approved to God, so you can be found approved of God if you learn from them.
That is how it works...

​

Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, ​

as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that ​

would be unprofitable for you." Hebrews 13:17​

Pastors must give account for you... and will be judged more harsher than you might be if they failed to teach what is truth as they should.

Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we ​

who teach will be judged more strictly. " James 3:1​

The fact that so many teach so poorly today is astounding.

But God is faithful. There will be a few God raises up who do teach well.

That is what I have been trying to tell you!

Once you digest what I just said, I will get back to showing you what I had been taught by an excellent pastor concerning Titus 2:11-12.

​

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. ​

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to ​

live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, ​

To show you concerning how God's grace teaches all men to say "No" to unrighteousness.
Its nit complicated. But its hidden if you think you can depend solely upon your Bible translation and yourself.

Unless someone who studies diligently and teaches you what certain words mean?
Reading English translations on our own will leave us all in the dark.
That's why I asked you to explain Titus 2:11-12,. Which you failed to do.
I figured you would fail. Even though you claimed the following.

I don't let other men set my theology for me.....After all, they will not answer for me when I face God.

But they will have to answer!

Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, ​

as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that ​

would be unprofitable for you." Hebrews 13:17​

Now you know why I would not let up!
I have known of a few good teachers I have been blessed by.

One in particular refuses to charge money for his teachings because he knew that freely he had been given, and freely he is to give.
Here is his thinking and belief of what I speak...

_____________Bible Ministries is a grace ministry and operates entirely on voluntary contributions.
There is no price list for any of our material. No money is requested. When gratitude for the Word
of God motivates a believer to give, he has the privilege of contributing to the dissemination of Bible
doctrine.

But you claimed wrongly the following!

Don't be lazy. Get the truth from God and the Scriptures. Don't let other men trick you. Don't believe me. Do the work yourself but don't trust others for things that are so vitally important.

You could not do the work yourself with Titus 2:11-12. That is why I challenged you after you said what you did.





Grace and peace ................

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

 

[praise_yeshua]

You do not know how to answer a question?
You keep changing the subject.


I asked you...

In what manner does the grace of God "teach" us to say "no" to ungodliness?

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to
live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.

grace and peace .........

I answered you. I posted a Hebrew apostles words that have taught us? Why do you not recognize an answer?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well...

I understand that you do not have the answer.

I would not have confronted you with my challenge if you did not make the following claim.


You are wrong. Like it or not.. Each pastor must give account for what he has taught you and others to believe.

Each good pastor KNOWS this...

Those ones will study hard to show themselves approved to God, so you can be found approved of God if you learn from them.
That is how it works...

​

Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, ​

as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that ​

would be unprofitable for you." Hebrews 13:17​

Pastors must give account for you... and will be judged more harsher than you might be if they failed to teach what is truth as they should.

Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we ​

who teach will be judged more strictly. " James 3:1​

The fact that so many teach so poorly today is astounding.

But God is faithful. There will be a few God raises up who do teach well.

That is what I have been trying to tell you!

Once you digest what I just said, I will get back to showing you what I had been taught by an excellent pastor concerning Titus 2:11-12.

​

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. ​

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to ​

live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, ​

To show you concerning how God's grace teaches all men to say "No" to unrighteousness.
Its nit complicated. But its hidden if you think you can depend solely upon your Bible translation and yourself.

Unless someone who studies diligently and teaches you what certain words mean?
Reading English translations on our own will leave us all in the dark.
That's why I asked you to explain Titus 2:11-12,. Which you failed to do.
I figured you would fail. Even though you claimed the following.


But they will have to answer!

Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, ​

as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that ​

would be unprofitable for you." Hebrews 13:17​

Now you know why I would not let up!
I have known of a few good teachers I have been blessed by.

One in particular refuses to charge money for his teachings because he knew that freely he had been given, and freely he is to give.
Here is his thinking and belief of what I speak...

_____________Bible Ministries is a grace ministry and operates entirely on voluntary contributions.
There is no price list for any of our material. No money is requested. When gratitude for the Word
of God motivates a believer to give, he has the privilege of contributing to the dissemination of Bible
doctrine.

But you claimed wrongly the following!



You could not do the work yourself with Titus 2:11-12. That is why I challenged you after you said what you did.





Grace and peace ................

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

This is a good conversation. I first had this conversation decades ago with my pastor at the time. I asked him very simply, what do you have that I don't have?

Silence...

When Paul appealed to "giving an account" he wasn't speaking of standing for you when you are judged. He was talking about himself and those gifted in the early church.

Let me guess.... you claim to be a leader somewhere and you like to control YOUR people instead of letting them follow God?

Today, men make disciples for themselves. Not for God. I gave that up a long time ago. Just so you know, I have pastored before. I'm licensed and ordained. Not that it matters. It doesn't. However, I have meet your requirements.

Most pastors have a self marketing campaign. Not a ministry. They prefer to pretend they have authority they don't have.

You want to start a thread on authority? We can review the Scriptures to see who really has authority today.

The Pharisees claimed authority. Jesus even said to obey them. Good thing He also told them to not ACT like them. For they say and do not.

Sound familiar?

 

[GeneZ]

I answered you. I posted a Hebrew apostles words that have taught us? Why do you not recognize an answer?

See post #357

 

[GeneZ]

This is a good conversation. I first had this conversation decades ago with my pastor at the time. I asked him very simply, what do you have that I don't have?

Silence...

That pastor was dumb. What has that got to do with the good ones?
Why did you stop looking for a good pastor teacher until you found one?

God can't provide?

 

[GeneZ]

Question?

Does anyone here want to know the answer to the following question?


In what manner does the grace of God "teach" us to say "no" to ungodliness?

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to
live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age."​

​

​

​

grace and truth .....

 

[GeneZ]

my 3 pastors get challenged by me on a weekly basis in our mens discipleship group on thursday mornings. they are just as fallible as I am.

Why three pastors?

 

[GeneZ]

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

It is the Grace of God in Jesus Christ.

Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

I found it....

How did that answer my question?

Here's the question again.

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.​

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to​

live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.​

​

In what manner does the grace of God "teach" us to say "no" to ungodliness?​

Your response was?

​

Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.​

​

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin​

Those verses did not answer my question at all.

Can you say you don't know the answer?

grace and peace .................

 

[sawdust]

If sin requires death then justice demands death.

Yes but you are forgetting that righteousness requires life. The justice that saw Christ put to death for our sin, is the same justice that raised Christ to life for His righteousness.

If there was no justice executed in the Cross there would have been neither life or death.

I asked the question "can love and justice be divided?" You responded by saying "yes" but how can this be so? Love, justice, righteousness, these are all innate to God, His very nature. Can God be divided?

Matthew 12:25
But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.

It is because love and justice is not divided that the Cross stands in a point of time with eternal consequences. Given to us because God so loved the world, that which He created, that which He intends and executed in justice, death to sin and life to righteousness that we can have the confidence in God's word it is truly finished.

ps. I'm back home and went over our conversation and intended to summarise our differences and give response but we covered so much ground I didn't know where to begin. I'm essentially just picking up where we left off.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That pastor was dumb. What has that got to do with the good ones?
Why did you stop looking for a good pastor teacher until you found one?

God can't provide?

He wasn't dumb. You're much dumber in comparison to him. You're also lazy. He wasn't lazy at all. You prefer others work for you.

Looking for a good pastor? I already told you that I'm licensed and ordained. Are you?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Why three pastors?

Why not? I suppose you have Unitarian belief when it comes to your pastor of choice.