Transmitting The Fallen Nature

[e v e]

Again

Genesis 2:4–8 (NASB 2020) — 4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven. 5 Now no shrub of the field was yet on the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. 6 But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person. 8 The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.

it does not appear that way

Appearing this or that way is not what interests me.

What is important is what He actually said,
right? Not what some esau wrote down and
claimed was His.

what heavens and what earth were created?
I do not assume this one is the one He created.
When God declared His creation Good, that was His creation... Done.
No tinkering, evolving or improvements were needed. No death. No illness,
no labor, no sweat, no crime ...nothing ugly.

This earth on the other hand is a mess, does not care,
strikes people dead with a storm, cancer, etc. Apparently
an uncaring nature has been attributed to God..
but that is not true and neither is it Good.

This reality is death.
Another inserted confusion: the view that world means system.
No..this world is a cosmological and corrupt reality, a land.

Eden is not this earth.

 

[e v e]

I found this for a friend on telegram... what I like about this is that it is correct in its basic premise of what the difference is.

https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Of-the-Difference-Between-a-Genius-and-an-Apostle.pdf

 

[TomL]

Appearing this or that way is not what interests me.

What is important is what He actually said,
right? Not what some esau wrote down and
claimed was His.

what heavens and what earth were created?
I do not assume this one is the one He created.
When God declared His creation Good, that was His creation... Done.
No tinkering, evolving or improvements were needed. No death. No illness,
no labor, no sweat, no crime ...nothing ugly.

This earth on the other hand is a mess, does not care,
strikes people dead with a storm, cancer, etc. Apparently
an uncaring nature has been attributed to God..
but that is not true and neither is it Good.

This reality is death.
Another inserted confusion: the view that world means system.
No..this world is a cosmological and corrupt reality, a land.

Eden is not this earth.

Um nowhere do we read God created Adam and then removed him from the earth

 

[koberstein]

The problem is, that doesn't explain how babies only an hour old die. What personal sin did they commit? They have nothing with which to think, no vocabulary, no concepts with which to imagine and no knowledge to make application of anything.

We have the same human nature our original parents were created with but we don't have the same bodies the Lord formed

Toitally FALSE. YOU / Your theological paradigm says that "Babies have SIN". The Bible says nothing of the sort.

and built for them. The sin nature is another law in the flesh (Rom.7:23), a law that God did not create, a law that leads to corruption and death.

Every human being born into this world except Adam and Eve has a sin nature. When that first sin (original sin) act was committed and the consequences that followed with Adam and Eve that sin nature was genetically transfered to the whole human race.
No one is born sinless. No one has to be taught to sin, that comes naturally because it is in everyone's DNA so to speak. That's why we need a Savior and Redeemer.

 

[TomL]

Every human being born into this world except Adam and Eve has a sin nature. When that first sin (original sin) act was committed and the consequences that followed with Adam and Eve that sin nature was genetically transfered to the whole human race.
No one is born sinless. No one has to be taught to sin, that comes naturally because it is in everyone's DNA so to speak. That's why we need a Savior and Redeemer.

Well, they have a nature which will inevitably lead to sin.

They are not born guilty however

 

[koberstein]

Well, they have a nature which will inevitably lead to sin.

They are not born guilty however

Tehillim (Psalm) 51:5
True, I was born guilty, was a sinner from the moment my mother conceived me.
Messianic Jewish Version

Khata is the Hebrew word for sin that means missing the goal.
Hamartia is the Greek word for sin that means missing the mark.
Yeshua came to save us so we can hit the mark and the goal every time.

 

[TomL]

Tehillim (Psalm) 51:5
True, I was born guilty, was a sinner from the moment my mother conceived me.
Messianic Jewish Version

Khata is the Hebrew word for sin that means missing the goal.
Hamartia is the Greek word for sin that means missing the mark.
Yeshua came to save us so we can hit the mark and the goal every time.

Psalm 51:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51:5 (ESV) — 5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Nowhere are we stated to bear Adam's sin. Instead we inherit the consequences

 

[koberstein]

Psalm 51:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51:5 (ESV) — 5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Nowhere are we stated to bear Adam's sin. Instead we inherit the consequences

Amen

 

[civic]

Every human being born into this world except Adam and Eve has a sin nature. When that first sin (original sin) act was committed and the consequences that followed with Adam and Eve that sin nature was genetically transfered to the whole human race.
No one is born sinless. No one has to be taught to sin, that comes naturally because it is in everyone's DNA so to speak. That's why we need a Savior and Redeemer.

Origin sin was invented by Augustine , the doctrine did not exist prior and the same with total depravity.

See below

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/where-did-original-sin-come-from.560/

 

[koberstein]

Psalm 51:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51:5 (ESV) — 5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Nowhere are we stated to bear Adam's sin. Instead we inherit the consequences

Thank you for posting those verses from the KJV and the ESV. I only have my Messianic Jewish Bible and the Jewish Didache that I study from plus writings from some Messianic Rabbi's.

 

[TomL]

Thank you for posting those verses from the KJV and the ESV. I only have my Messianic Jewish Bible and the Jewish Didache that I study from plus writings from some Messianic Rabbi's.

You are welcome

 

[e v e]

Again

Genesis 2:4–8 (NASB 2020) — 4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven. 5 Now no shrub of the field was yet on the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. 6 But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person. 8 The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.

it does not appear that way

i'm not interested in how it appears, if it 'appears' that way, how some interpret it, or what people agree with.

 

[e v e]

what matters is what He said.

Not how esau wrote it down or how commentators incorrectly interpret what He said.

 

[TomL]

i'm not interested in how it appears, if it 'appears' that way, how some interpret it, or what people agree with.

Well then post a verse which actually states Eden was not on earth

 

[TedT]

When God declared His creation Good, that was His creation... Done.
No tinkering, evolving or improvements were needed. No death. No illness,
no labor, no sweat, no crime ...nothing ugly.

Well, since we know that there were two creations, why must we assume that both were physical creations?

I accept that the first creation was as you describe and was the creation of all the spirits ever created in HIS image, ie, able to fulfill HIS purpose in our creation as HIS Bride and Family before any sin and death had entered.

Later, after the Satanic rebellion, HE created the physical universe, a creation we ALL saw, Job 38:7 and which proved to everyone HIS claims to be our creator GOD, Col 1:23, were true Romans 1:18-20.

This creation of the physical universe is described in Genesis and even though it does contain sin and evil, and a repaired 'not good', it is accepted as very good. Surely this must point to the perfection of this world for the purpose for the redemption of the fallen elect, HIS sheep gone astray, the sinful people of HIS kingdom and not to any moral perfection within the creation?

 

[TedT]

Here is my website.

You refer to one you use, not one you have made, right?

https://het-report.nl

I found this to be quite confusing (such as the reference to the resurrection of the angel Michael in Daniel), which put me off a little.

I made Facebook pages

I use FB, how do I find you?

 

[TedT]

Ted, can you share your awareness about this. We can exchange ideas sounds great.

I was taught about the theology of our pre-earth, pre-conception existence, PCE, from a Christian pov from a friend who was a prophet to me but to others he was just an ordinary sinner.

It was the mid-70s when we were crashing around between churches and doctrines and theologies that I stood against pce from the Calvinist, the Arminian and the Catholic points of view when PCE slowly came to resonate with me as the most probably true theology of all, avoiding the blasphemies inherent in other theologies.

Three years of reading the whole Bible thru 3 times and comparing the dogma of the various theologies for hours each day, I settled into PCE as my chosen faith and then I was instructed in the Spirit to go and live a life... Some 15 years ago I felt moved to share PCE and started to use internet forums to do so.

I have found that though a great many people do believe that they were in the spirit in a heavenly realm with GOD before their birth, they have no understanding of this as a Christian theology nor as a Biblical interpretation...nor do they care much about that.

 

[TedT]

Eden is not on the current earth.

Eden, the heavenly promised land we are to return to:
Berean Standard Bible
Heb 13:14 For here we do not have a permanent city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.

I view eden as our real home and a real land and place and that this earth was a corruption that came about after the fall, when we left paradise.

...our eternal home. This earth is a prison planet, Rev 12:4-9, to sequester heaven from the predations of the evil ones with a rehab centre in it for the redemption of sinful believers, Jn 3:18.

 

[TedT]

Well, they have a nature which will inevitably lead to sin.

They are not born guilty however

This is the pretence that death is a natural consequence of life, NOT the wages for sin...

 

[TomL]

This is the pretence that death is a natural consequence of life, NOT the wages for sin...

Actually physical death is a consequence of Adam's sin

All inherit mortality because of Adam's sin.

Eternal death is the consequence of one's sin who has not trusted in Christ