Transmitting The Fallen Nature

[e v e]

You haven't heard of the Resurrection? This is how we know, as a man, He passed the test, that He had no sin. Common sense ought to tell you judgement is being made for that to be made known.

If you don't think judgement was made on Christ, show us book, chapter and verse where it says He wasn't judged.

He wasn't raised to life because it was a fun thing to do on the day.


Of course not this is why God can judge sin and do with sinners as He pleases not as anyone demands.

God was putting sin where it belonged. Away from Him. Christ offered to take that upon Himself and so suffered what it is to be forsaken. God was judging us in the body of Christ.

He is judging
the nations (esau, demons, etc)
and the stubborn ones holding to
the flesh understandings
.. philistine christians

not His Souls who are in Him
and have died to this world
that had they not
they would be judged for

by the cross christ made possible
for us to be forgiven
and to be free

 

[GeneZ]

Sin is not stronger than God. Your illustration fails to make its point.

Then God wants people in Hell.
Because He is stronger than their sin not to believe.
You just said so yourself....

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ​

all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” 1 Tim 2:3-4​

​

Don't let your emotions get the best of you.

 

[GeneZ]

Sin is not stronger than God. Your illustration fails to make its point.

Actually.. Its you who are failing to get the point.

 

[GeneZ]

I like your parable. I get it.

but it is Jimmy Olsen with an "e" not an "o". (sorry for being picky)

So you're exegeting Superman now?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Then God wants people in Hell.
Because He is stronger than their sin not to believe.
You just said so yourself....

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ​

all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” 1 Tim 2:3-4​

​

Don't let your emotions get the best of you.

Context:

2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

"all people" in this context means, "not just us rabble, but even kings and those in authority".

 

[GeneZ]

Context:

2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

"all people" in this context means, "not just us rabble, but even kings and those in authority".

It simply means "all people."

God desires that all men be saved.... Which includes kings, etc.

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people
to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

It simply means "all people."

God desires that all men be saved.... Which includes kings, etc.

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people
to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

.

Given the context, "all" doesn't mean all people who ever lived, live, or will live. The context is "these kinds of people, too, not just us."

 

[civic]

We are here to discuss it HERE as well.

People are here to learn from others.

The only disunity I see is with your thinking. Disunity of mind because you can not reconcile what you have chosen to believe
with what is now conflicted when the Word of God is expounded upon as found in Luke 2:52.

“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man”​

If Jesus was being fully God (in his experiential function)?
He could not have fulfilled what that passage tells us he had fulfilled as a man!

Stop using that old skirt you keep hiding behind, and address the dilemma that your old thinking causes as it hits a wall
with Luke 2:52. That verse plainly contradicts your claim.

What you and your cohort are doing to me is like me appearing in some small town court meeting in a general store
where the judge is also the sheriff bringing along his chosen jury.
I want to see God's Justice reign, not some maneuvering of human power in a desire to win an argument, even at the expense
of covering over truth that you want to be denied.

I continue to present my case, even when you say I have none. I do so because others coming to this forum will be able to see
for themselves the facts which you either choose ignore, or choose to deny..

“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man”​

I have patience by grace.....
You can not wear me out ..
For its only by religious human strength that you are operating within.

In the mean while?

The Spirit wants to gain access to where He has been denied in you.

Or, are you playing a game with me?
For some play the devil's advocate, so that more truth can come out...



Merry Christmas....

Jesus is fully God and fully man. Growing in wisdom has nothing to do with His Deity just as drinking water ,eating food ,sleeping have nothing to do with His Deity. You are conflating the two of them showing your misunderstanding of the 2 natures in Christ. You are arguing just like the JW's right now who reject the deity of Christ that use the exact same arguments as you have just done here.

So once again I will go on record stating you have a misunderstanding of both the Trinity and the 2 natures in Christ and that he is a Divine Person who became man while remaining fully God. His Deity was veiled, not removed. It was hidden, His Divine Glory was veiled. The only ones who saw His Divine Glory were Peter, James and John on the Transfiguration and Paul on the Road to Damascus.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

If I may take the liberty to use Superman to illustrate a point?

When close to Kryptonite? Superman would become weak and unable to resist.

Now, if Jimmy Olson were given in a robe and pants to wear that was embedded with Kryptonite?
It would not be Jimmy causing Superman to become weak.
It would be the Kryptonite Jimmy was wearing causing it.

............................. So with that in mind.

God hates sin wherever He sees sin.
And, like Kryptonite makes Superman weak?
Sin makes God's hatred become manifest.
God hates sin because sin cuts us off from fellowship with Him.

.........................And, for that reason?

God was not hating Jesus while Jesus hung on the Cross.
God was hating the sins of mankind that Jesus was being wrapped and baptized into..

So, God's hatred for sin was being directed at the sins. Not Jesus!

Just like the Kryptonite was making Superman weak, and not Jimmy Olsen causing it?
Superman would have to separate himself from Jimmy Olsen's presence, like the Father
had to separate from Jesus.

Jesus was the needed "depository" for the sacrifice for sin (lamb of God) that God's justice determined in the Law.
The lamb would be the place for where the sins were to be placed upon in order to put them to death.

"Put to death?" We have been "crucified with Christ!"

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. ​

The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me ​

and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20​

One day at a time....

grace and peace ....

Strawman alert !!!!

If God viewed sin that way then Jesus could of never existed as a man being raised by sinners, eating with them, living with them, having sinners as His disciples etc..............

The fact that He is God and dwelled with sinners contradicts your theory and wipes it out. And besides all of that you have the atonement all wrong. God never punished the sacrifice, God never hated the sacrifice, God used the sacrifice to atone, cover, forgive sin and not punish the sinner. The sacrifice was never guilty but the sacrificial animal was spotless, without blemish to represent Gods final sacrifice for sin- The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

If God cannot be around sin and sinners you are reading a completely different Bible then I'm reading since adam sinned and God walked in the garden to find him and provide him with a covering. How could a Holy God wrestle all night with such a sinner as Jacob ? How could God allow satan into His presence in heaven and negotiate with him the boundaries on Job ? How could Jesus have as one of the 12 the one who was called the son of perdition ?

Your view of God is tainted by the traditions and teachings of man regarding sin and the atonement. And on top of all that a misunderstanding of the Tri-Unity of God and the Deity of Christ.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Yes. This "withdraw fellowship" idea is foreign to the way God relates to those who are pleasing to him.

I think that @GeneZ is just mixing up how God reacts to those who are pleasing to him with those who grieve him. If GZ would just focus on how God reacts to those who please him, which is the case here with his Son on the Cross, then he would see that God never withdraws from those close to Him, much less His Son. That's because sin that Christ bore for us is never stronger than God.

Yes its nothing but a strawman. As you have observed within Christianity there is much misunderstanding with the Tri-Unity of God and the 2 natures in Christ which has a direct effect on ones beliefs and doctrine.

On a side note what is sad to see is when trinitarians make the same arguments as unitarians to come against Christ and the Tri-Unity of God.

 

[GeneZ]

Given the context, "all" doesn't mean all people who ever lived, live, or will live. The context is "these kinds of people, too, not just us."

You can argue that way.....

 

[GeneZ]

Yes its nothing but a strawman. As you have observed within Christianity there is much misunderstanding with the Tri-Unity of God and the 2 natures in Christ which has a direct effect on ones beliefs and doctrine.

On a side note what is sad to see is when trinitarians make the same arguments as unitarians to come against Christ and the Tri-Unity of God.

How come you know this? Why can't I?

And, why can you not deal with properly with a straight answer when shown that it would have been impossible for God to do, was what would only be possible for a man to do?

​

“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man” (Luke 2:52)​

You walk away.

You pass it off to sending me to search through pages of information. Information which you having?
Means you should be able to answer my question.

But? You refuse. And, its become like reasoning with a 'good Catholic' in your response.

Now, I don't see how its possible for Jesus to be functioning as God in power to fulfill Luke 2:52.
Why?

Because God can not grow in wisdom. He can't.
Because God can not gain favor with God. How could he?

But, you keep repeating your own version of Catechism without understanding.
"I don't care what you say! "Jesus is God!"

I never said He wasn't God. Yes, He is God.
And, now is being fully God in his experiencing all of his function as God...

I am not arguing against Jesus being God. Far from it.
I am arguing that Jesus has two natures.
And, having two natures? He was able to choose how to function for reasons needed in God's plan for men and angels.
He was able to become literally like a man in his function!

You say? NO! "He is God! But, God can not grow in wisdom and increase in favor with God!

“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man."

You are afraid of something when you are told that.
Like? What would others think of me if I made that claim?
Is that it?

Yes, He is God. God with two natures in union who at one point in time for God's plan for man's redemption LIMITED himself
to being no more than a man..

That does not mean He placed Himself in a state of amnesia and forgot He is God.
For He remained knowing (by faith) that He was also God!
Just like you know by faith that you are now seated with Him in heavenly places. Even in your resurrection body!
But? Are you in that resurrection body now? In heaven? No.

By "faith" you are seated with Him in Heaven... But, in your experience right now in time? You are not.
Faith is about what we know is absolutely reality but is not being experienced in our present state of existence.

When the Lord God of Israel chose to do something by means of His Soul? To enter his soul into the body born of Mary?
He agreed with the Father to never extend his human powers beyond that of being human power.
That He must willingly depend upon the Father and Holy Spirit for all His needs for being as a man.
That his human ability (as great as it was) would not provide for himself in God's plan anything that
required using His Deity to provide for Himself.

In that manner He became a man who by faith knew He is God.

Whenever Jesus declared something about Himself what pertained to being God?
He proclaimed it by..... "faith."

He always was God. But, limited Himself to being as a man in order to be qualified to die in the place of all men.

Shall we try again?

grace and peace ..............

 

[synergy]

You haven't heard of the Resurrection? This is how we know, as a man, He passed the test, that He had no sin. Common sense ought to tell you judgement is being made for that to be made known.

Jesus is the Supreme Judge of all Heaven and Earth and you dare to place Him under judgment at the Resurrection!?!?!

Of course not this is why God can judge sin and do with sinners as He pleases not as anyone demands.

Thank you for confirming that GZ's analogy fails to make whatever point it tried to make.

 

[civic]

How come you know this? Why can't I?

And, why can you not deal with properly with a straight answer when shown that it would have been impossible for God to do, was what would only be possible for a man to do?

​

“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man” (Luke 2:52)​

You walk away.

You pass it off to sending me to search through pages of information. Information which you having?
Means you should be able to answer my question.

But? You refuse. And, its become like reasoning with a 'good Catholic' in your response.

Now, I don't see how its possible for Jesus to be functioning as God in power to fulfill Luke 2:52.
Why?

Because God can not grow in wisdom. He can't.
Because God can not gain favor with God. How could he?

But, you keep repeating your own version of Catechism without understanding.
"I don't care what you say! "Jesus is God!"

I never said He wasn't God. Yes, He is God.
And, now is being fully God in his experiencing all of his function as God...

I am not arguing against Jesus being God. Far from it.
I am arguing that Jesus has two natures.
And, having two natures? He was able to choose how to function for reasons needed in God's plan for men and angels.
He was able to become literally like a man in his function!

You say? NO! "He is God! But, God can not grow in wisdom and increase in favor with God!

“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man."

You are afraid of something when you are told that.
Like? What would others think of me if I made that claim?
Is that it?

Yes, He is God. God with two natures in union who at one point in time for God's plan for man's redemption LIMITED himself
to being no more than a man..

That does not mean He placed Himself in a state of amnesia and forgot He is God.
For He remained knowing (by faith) that He was also God!
Just like you know by faith that you are now seated with Him in heavenly places. Even in your resurrection body!
But? Are you in that resurrection body now? In heaven? No.

By "faith" you are seated with Him in Heaven... But, in your experience right now in time? You are not.
Faith is about what we know is absolutely reality but is not being experienced in our present state of existence.

When the Lord God of Israel chose to do something by means of His Soul? To enter his soul into the body born of Mary?
He agreed with the Father to never extend his human powers beyond that of being human power.
That He must willingly depend upon the Father and Holy Spirit for all His needs for being as a man.
That his human ability (as great as it was) would not provide for himself in God's plan anything that
required using His Deity to provide for Himself.

In that manner He became a man who by faith knew He is God.

Whenever Jesus declared something about Himself what pertained to being God?
He proclaimed it by..... "faith."

He always was God. But, limited Himself to being as a man in order to be qualified to die in the place of all men.

Shall we try again?

grace and peace ..............

Faith is only necessary for those who need salvation, sinners . Once again you have a wrong concept of Jesus.

 

[sawdust]

You are conflating the two of them showing your misunderstanding of the 2 natures in Christ.

Actually civic you are the one conflating the two natures of Christ as if they are joined as a blending of the two and cannot be separated. The two natures of Christ remain distinct in that His Deity never spills over into His humanity and vice versa. It is because each nature, even though joined together uniquely into one person, are separate that He could come and function solely as a man. In fact, He did it so well that many of His day and even down to today cannot see Jesus as God.

Jesus being forsaken on the Cross has nothing to do with separating Deity from Deity, God the Father was not forsaking God the Son. Your constant argument that we don't understand the Tri-unity of God is, in reality, simply you misunderstanding what is being said. In fact, I cannot recall you actually dealing with the union of Deity and humanity in Christ in any detail through this thread. You had a lot to say about the trinity from memory but not the hypostatic union. I could be mistaken here and will need to go back and check. These conversations do go over a long time.

 

[synergy]

Then God wants people in Hell.

Huh? Is that what you believe?

Because He is stronger than their sin not to believe.

Him being stronger does not mean that He strong arms us against our will.

You just said so yourself....

Produce the quote.

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ​

all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” 1 Tim 2:3-4​

​

Don't let your emotions get the best of you.

You are projecting again.

 

[sawdust]

Jesus is the Supreme Judge of all Heaven and Earth and you dare to place Him under judgment at the Resurrection!?!?!

Thank you for confirming that GZ's analogy fails to make whatever point it tried to make.

I was confirming your misunderstanding of what he was saying.

Fine, the Father never decided Jesus was a righteous man and therefore raise Him from the dead. No judgement to see here move along.

 

[GeneZ]

Jesus is the Supreme Judge of all Heaven and Earth and you dare to place Him under judgment at the Resurrection!?!?!

Thank you for confirming that GZ's analogy fails to make whatever point it tried to make.

Among the crowds there was widespread whispering about him. Some said, “He is a good man.”
Others replied, “No, he deceives the people.” John 7:12

.

 

[synergy]

God the Father was not forsaking God the Son.

Do you mind telling that to @GeneZ ? Maybe he might listen to you.

 

[sawdust]

Faith is only necessary for those who need salvation, sinners . Once again you have a wrong concept of Jesus.

Well, I have to say that one has truly blown my mind. Jesus the man had no faith????
I don't recall ever hearing that before.