Transmitting The Fallen Nature

[GeneZ]

Several here misunderstand the Tri-Unity of God and the 2 natures in Christ. Nestorianism is creeping into the picture.

Instead of telling someone to go search through pages of data .. Give your answer.

What did Nestorius believe that I am saying?

Nestorianism, Christian sect that originated in Asia Minor and Syria stressing the independence
of the divine and human natures of Christ and, in effect, suggesting that they are two persons loosely united.


I never said He is loosely united. I have been saying He is a union.

And, He is a Divine paradox!

But, as per Philippians 2:6-8? It says He was able to "isolate" one nature in its function from the other at will.
He can will to make Himself be as a man in abilities. Why? Because He can choose to do so!

If He did not become as a man? Then he could not have pioneered our faith.
For He had to pioneer our faith as a man would, so men would be able to adapt to what works for men!

All the while? While making Himself be as a man? His Deity assumed the "Observer" position.
Observing his humanity and not influencing directly. For, that influence of Deity had to come from the Father.
From the Father! Just like its supposed to work for us! He pioneered OUR faith! For man!

For it was for man that He pioneered our faith. And, he proved it will work for the believer by becoming as a man to demonstrate it.
For as a believer we are not God! He became as a man to show our faith will work for man.

As the Son He was able to isolate one nature's attributes and function as a man.

Now read what it says in Luke 2:52....

​

“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man” ​

​

​

​

As God? He could not increase in wisdom.
Nor, does God grow in favor with GOD!
Can you see what it is saying? So far, you can not!

Deal with it. And, please put down those stones!

He made himself become as a man! (Philippians 2:6-8)

He could do that because one of His two natures is a Soul.
A soul as to become as one of us.
But, without sin.



............... Lord, please give me some of Job's patience.

 

[civic]

Instead of telling someone to go search through pages of data .. Give your answer.

What did Nestorius believe that I am saying?

Nestorianism, Christian sect that originated in Asia Minor and Syria stressing the independence of the divine and human natures of Christ and, in effect, suggesting that they are two persons loosely united.


I never said He is not unified. I have been saying He is a union. And, He is a Divine paradox!

But, as per Philippians 2:6-8, He was able to "isolate" one nature in its function from the other at will.
He can will to make Himself be as a man in abilities, because He can choose to do so.

If He did not become as a man? Then he could not have pioneered our faith.
For He had to do so as a man would so men could adapt to what works for men!

All the while, while making Himself be as a man? His Deity assumed an "Observer" position.
Observing his humanity, and not influencing directly. For, that influence had to come from the Father.
From the Father just like its supposed to work for us!

For it was for man that He pioneered our faith. And, proved that it will work for the believer by becoming as a man.
For as a believer we are not God!

He was able to isolate one nature and function as a man.

Now read what it says....

“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man” (Luke 2:52)​

​

As God? He could not grow in wisdom.
Nor does God grow in favor with GOD!
Can't you see that?

Deal with it. And, put down those stones!

He made himself become as a man! (Philippians 2:6-8)

He could do that because one of His two natures is a Soul.



............... Lord, please give me some of Job's patience.

I’ve answered you in great detail already . Your Trinity is broken, fellowship disrupted, forsaking of the Son by the Father. Need I go on ?

I’ve been debating Arians and Nestorians for decades. Your views are both unbiblical and unorthodox according to the creeds in Christendom.

 

[TedT]

What is the cup Jesus mentioned and what does it mean ?

Please consider:
Since Christ was divine and committed to our salvation and to His own His promise of election the cup cannot possibly be referring to His death. Upon reading of His pre-death agony in the garden I suspect that He might have thought that He might die before the cross and though He was steadfast on going to the cross to fulfill prophecy, He was acquiescent if the Father's will was for Him to die in the garden.

 

[sawdust]

I’ve answered you in great detail already . Your Trinity is broken, fellowship disrupted, forsaking of the Son by the Father. Need I go on ?

I’ve been debating Arians and Nestorians for decades. Your views are both unbiblical and unorthodox according to the creeds in Christendom.

To be honest I find it unbelievable. You can believe Jesus can learn, He can be ignorant of certain things, He can die on a cross but he can't be forsaken by God.

It's ironic, most can't see His Deity for His humanity but I guess there are also those, in some areas, can't see His humanity for His Deity. Go figure.

 

[civic]

Please consider:
Since Christ was divine and committed to our salvation and to His own His promise of election the cup cannot possibly be referring to His death. Upon reading of His pre-death agony in the garden I suspect that He might have thought that He might die before the cross and though He was steadfast on going to the cross to fulfill prophecy, He was acquiescent if the Father's will was for Him to die in the garden.

Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath” and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in Scripture.
In Matthew 26:39, Jesus says, "If it be your will, let this cup pass from me." Jesus tells us precisely what the cup was. It was the cup of his suffering, which meant that He would die an agonizing death as a martyr. In the passage below, Jesus told His disciples that they would also drink of the same "cup":

Matthew 20:17-

Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

1 Thessalonians 5:9-For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

As we see above it was not the cup of wrath Jesus was speaking about but it was the suffering He was going to have to endure for our sins. God has not appointed us to wrath and the cup means the suffering of Jesus and that the disciples would also suffer death as martyrs. In fact, many scriptures testify that believers too will suffer persecution for being a follower of Jesus. Suffering persecution is a promise for a believer who follows Jesus, it is something we should expect to happen in our life.

2 Timothy 3:12- Yes, and everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

John 15:20
Remember the word that I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well.

Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

2 Corinthians 4:9- persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.

hope this helps !!!

To be honest I find it unbelievable. You can believe Jesus can learn, He can be ignorant of certain things, He can die on a cross but he can't be forsaken by God.

It's ironic, most can't see His Deity for His humanity but I guess there are also those, in some areas, can't see His humanity for His Deity. Go figure.

Jesus is a Divine Person.

 

[GeneZ]

I’ve answered you in great detail already . Your Trinity is broken, fellowship disrupted, forsaking of the Son by the Father. Need I go on ?

I’ve been debating Arians and Nestorians for decades. Your views are both unbiblical and unorthodox according to the creeds in Christendom.

I am flattered.
You can not give direct answers, and choose to rest on your laurels without lifting a finger.

Answer THIS.

“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man”

(Luke 2:52)​

Being as God in manifested power? And, not as a man?
As God He could not increase in wisdom.
For God is the source of all wisdom.

Only His Humanity could increase in wisdom!
Being as God before the Incarnation he had to first make Himself to be as a man. (Philippians 2:6-8)



And, if what else you claimed to be truth?

That Jesus was always functioning as fully God in his function?

“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man”

​

God does not grow in favor with GOD! That would be impossible!

Only His Humanity could grow in favor with God.

“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man” ​

Now if you are going to keep on avoiding answering with a straightforward and direct answer?
I call you lazy. And, wanting to maintain your self image which is based upon past performances
you had with with weak believers.

Answer you will not?

You run away. (telling me to go to another page and wade through pages.. And by telling me, you answered this years ago to others)

“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man”

(Luke 2:52)​

I rest my case...

 

[civic]

I am flattered.
You can not give direct answers, and choose to rest on your laurels without lifting a finger.

Answer THIS.

“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man”

(Luke 2:52)​

Being as God in manifested power, and not as a man?

He could not increase in wisdom.
For God is the source of all wisdom.

Only His Humanity could increase in wisdom.
Being as God, He had to make Himself to be as a man. (Philippians 2:6-8)

And, if what else you claimed to be truth?
That he was always functioning as fully God in his function?
God does not grow in favor with GOD! Impossible.
Only His Humanity could grow in favor with God.

“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man” ​

Now if you are going to avoid answering with a straightforward, direct answer?
I call you lazy, wanting to maintain your self image based upon past performances
you had with with weak believers.

Answer you will not?
You run away. (telling me to go to another page and wade through pages.. And by telling me, you answered this years ago to others)

“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man”

(Luke 2:52)​

I rest my case...

This forum answers in detail the Tri-Unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I’m all about the Trinity and not your version of the disunity of the Trinity.

 

[sawdust]

Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath”

I have already said the wrath of God was not poured out on the Cross. If you can't be bothered reading what I say, I'm not going to bother reading the rest of what you said.

 

[synergy]

This forum answers in detail the Tri-Unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I’m all about the Trinity and not your version of the disunity of the Trinity.

Yes. This "withdraw fellowship" idea is foreign to the way God relates to those who are pleasing to him.

I think that @GeneZ is just mixing up how God reacts to those who are pleasing to him with those who grieve him. If GZ would just focus on how God reacts to those who please him, which is the case here with his Son on the Cross, then he would see that God never withdraws from those close to Him, much less His Son. That's because sin that Christ bore for us is never stronger than God.

 

[GeneZ]

This forum answers in detail the Tri-Unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I’m all about the Trinity and not your version of the disunity of the Trinity.

We are here to discuss it HERE as well.

People are here to learn from others.

The only disunity I see is with your thinking. Disunity of mind because you can not reconcile what you have chosen to believe
with what is now conflicted when the Word of God is expounded upon as found in Luke 2:52.

“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man”​

If Jesus was being fully God (in his experiential function)?
He could not have fulfilled what that passage tells us he had fulfilled as a man!

Stop using that old skirt you keep hiding behind, and address the dilemma that your old thinking causes as it hits a wall
with Luke 2:52. That verse plainly contradicts your claim.

What you and your cohort are doing to me is like me appearing in some small town court meeting in a general store
where the judge is also the sheriff bringing along his chosen jury.
I want to see God's Justice reign, not some maneuvering of human power in a desire to win an argument, even at the expense
of covering over truth that you want to be denied.

I continue to present my case, even when you say I have none. I do so because others coming to this forum will be able to see
for themselves the facts which you either choose ignore, or choose to deny..

“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man”​

I have patience by grace.....
You can not wear me out ..
For its only by religious human strength that you are operating within.

In the mean while?

The Spirit wants to gain access to where He has been denied in you.

Or, are you playing a game with me?
For some play the devil's advocate, so that more truth can come out...



Merry Christmas....

 

[sawdust]

Yes. This "withdraw fellowship" idea is foreign to the way God relates to those who are pleasing to him.

I think that @GeneZ is just mixing up how God reacts to those who are pleasing to him with those who grieve him. If GZ would just focus on how God reacts to those who please him, which is the case here with his Son on the Cross, then he would see that God never withdraws from those close to Him, much less His Son. That's because sin that Christ bore for us is never stronger than God.

While Christ bore our sin it was not pleasing to God which is why Christ had to be forsaken. He was forsaken only during the three hours our sin was on Him. When it came time for Christ to be judged, He was restored to fellowship because He did please the Father. This is how He knew His task was finished.

 

[GeneZ]

2 Corinthians 5:21

"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

Jesus who knew no sin was made to stand in the place of us who do sin.

While hanging on the Cross as a real substitute for our dreadful state? He bore, what we would have to bear if we hung on the Cross for our own sins.

He only was taking judgement for our sins. Not for Himself. He never sinned.
So once all the sins of man were bore by Him? There was no more sin God needed to atone for.
That is when Jesus said... "It is Finished!"

From that moment on He was free to return to being the perfect man He was.
And, to finish what was needed to be done before his ascension with the resultant glorification.
He was to no longer needing to be as a perfect man to die in our place.
For when He was glorified He became the Fulness of Deity in bodily form.

"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." Colossians 2:9​

That state of being was not the Jesus who was born of Mary and walked the earth.
While still on earth, he was not yet glorified.

He was still having to remain as a man in his state of being.
He was not yet being (experientially) the fullness of Deity in bodily form until after He finished His work on the Cross.

His state of glorification (being as God) had to take place only after He ascended back to heaven.

Jesus while on earth was not yet glorified!

Look here.. He was not yet glorified!

​

Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” ​

By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. ​

Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified." John 7:38-39​

Many are taught that Jesus is God when shown verses that prove His is God.
And, they accept He is God. That is excellent that they do.
But, a problem in thinking can happen when we do not realize that he had to deny Himself his right
to be as God as long as he was still needing to make it to the Cross. For, until he died on the cross?
He had to deny himself His right to be as God in order to qualify to "die as a man" for all mankind.

Who, although existing in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, ​

but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a slave, by being made in the likeness of men. Being ​

found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, ​

even death on a cross." Philippians 2:6-8​

He was not functioning as God during his days on earth leading up to his death on the Cross.
For He had to remain as a man. So he could die as a man, in the place of all men.




grace and peace .............

 

[e v e]

God the Son was not separated from God the Father. The humanity of Christ was separated from the Father. If He wasn't separated, then He didn't really die, it was all an illusion.

the corrupt type body died
and that was a painful horror

and He was restored in His real body
the resurrection body
just as soon,
when His souls meet Christ on the clouds
and are saved from the fallen situation

 

[e v e]

While Christ bore our sin it was not pleasing to God which is why Christ had to be forsaken. He was forsaken only during the three hours our sin was on Him. When it came time for Christ to be judged, He was restored to fellowship because He did please the Father. This is how He knew His task was finished.

sin is this body.

Christ was never abandoned by Him


the rejected are

esau
this body
this earth

 

[GeneZ]

While Christ bore our sin it was not pleasing to God which is why Christ had to be forsaken. He was forsaken only during the three hours our sin was on Him. When it came time for Christ to be judged, He was restored to fellowship because He did please the Father. This is how He knew His task was finished.

If I may take the liberty to use Superman to illustrate a point?

When close to Kryptonite? Superman would become weak and unable to resist.

Now, if Jimmy Olson were given in a robe and pants to wear that was embedded with Kryptonite?
It would not be Jimmy causing Superman to become weak.
It would be the Kryptonite Jimmy was wearing causing it.

............................. So with that in mind.

God hates sin wherever He sees sin.
And, like Kryptonite makes Superman weak?
Sin makes God's hatred become manifest.
God hates sin because sin cuts us off from fellowship with Him.

.........................And, for that reason?

God was not hating Jesus while Jesus hung on the Cross.
God was hating the sins of mankind that Jesus was being wrapped and baptized into..

So, God's hatred for sin was being directed at the sins. Not Jesus!

Just like the Kryptonite was making Superman weak, and not Jimmy Olsen causing it?
Superman would have to separate himself from Jimmy Olsen's presence, like the Father
had to separate from Jesus.

Jesus was the needed "depository" for the sacrifice for sin (lamb of God) that God's justice determined in the Law.
The lamb would be the place for where the sins were to be placed upon in order to put them to death.

"Put to death?" We have been "crucified with Christ!"

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. ​

The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me ​

and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20​

One day at a time....

grace and peace ....

 

[synergy]

While Christ bore our sin it was not pleasing to God which is why Christ had to be forsaken. He was forsaken only during the three hours our sin was on Him. When it came time for Christ to be judged, He was restored to fellowship because He did please the Father. This is how He knew His task was finished.

When did this "time for Christ to be judged" event occur? Please provide book, chapter, and verse. Thanking you in advance.

 

[synergy]

Christ was never abandoned by Him

the rejected are

I agree with what you wrote. It is a travesty to abandon those who trust in God. Why don't others understand that?

 

[synergy]

If I may take the liberty to use Superman to illustrate a point?

When close to Kryptonite? Superman would become weak and unable to resist.

Now, if Jimmy Olson were given in a robe and pants to wear that was embedded with Kryptonite?
It would not be Jimmy causing Superman to become weak.
It would be the Kryptonite Jimmy was wearing causing it.

............................. So with that in mind.

God hates sin wherever He sees sin.
And, like Kryptonite makes Superman weak?
Sin makes God's hatred become manifest.
God hates sin because sin cuts us off from fellowship with Him.

.........................And, for that reason?

God was not hating Jesus while Jesus hung on the Cross.
God was hating the sins of mankind that Jesus was being wrapped and baptized into..

So, God's hatred for sin was being directed at the sins. Not Jesus!

Just like the Kryptonite was making Superman weak, and not Jimmy Olsen causing it?
Superman would have to separate himself from Jimmy Olsen's presence, like the Father
had to separate from Jesus.

Jesus was the needed "depository" for the sacrifice for sin (lamb of God) that God's justice determined in the Law.
The lamb would be the place for where the sins were to be placed upon in order to put them to death.

"Put to death?" We have been "crucified with Christ!"

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. ​

The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me ​

and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20​

One day at a time....

grace and peace ....

Sin is not stronger than God. Your illustration fails to make its point.

 

[sawdust]

When did this "time for Christ to be judged" event occur? Please provide book, chapter, and verse. Thanking you in advance.

You haven't heard of the Resurrection? This is how we know, as a man, He passed the test, that He had no sin. Common sense ought to tell you judgement is being made for that to be made known.

If you don't think judgement was made on Christ, show us book, chapter and verse where it says He wasn't judged.

He wasn't raised to life because it was a fun thing to do on the day.

Sin is not stronger than God. Your illustration fails to make its point.

Of course not this is why God can judge sin and do with sinners as He pleases not as anyone demands.

God was putting sin where it belonged. Away from Him. Christ offered to take that upon Himself and so suffered what it is to be forsaken. God was judging us in the body of Christ.

 

[sawdust]

If I may take the liberty to use Superman to illustrate a point?

When close to Kryptonite? Superman would become weak and unable to resist.

Now, if Jimmy Olson were given in a robe and pants to wear that was embedded with Kryptonite?
It would not be Jimmy causing Superman to become weak.
It would be the Kryptonite Jimmy was wearing causing it.

............................. So with that in mind.

God hates sin wherever He sees sin.
And, like Kryptonite makes Superman weak?
Sin makes God's hatred become manifest.
God hates sin because sin cuts us off from fellowship with Him.

.........................And, for that reason?

God was not hating Jesus while Jesus hung on the Cross.
God was hating the sins of mankind that Jesus was being wrapped and baptized into..

So, God's hatred for sin was being directed at the sins. Not Jesus!

Just like the Kryptonite was making Superman weak, and not Jimmy Olsen causing it?
Superman would have to separate himself from Jimmy Olsen's presence, like the Father
had to separate from Jesus.

Jesus was the needed "depository" for the sacrifice for sin (lamb of God) that God's justice determined in the Law.
The lamb would be the place for where the sins were to be placed upon in order to put them to death.

"Put to death?" We have been "crucified with Christ!"

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. ​

The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me ​

and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20​

One day at a time....

grace and peace ....

I like your parable. I get it.

but it is Jimmy Olsen with an "e" not an "o". (sorry for being picky)