Transmitting The Fallen Nature

[GeneZ]

What point are you trying to make?

That Civic made a claim that since Jesus is God (and He is God) that He could never be separated from the Father.
That the Father really did not forsake Jesus causing Jesus to know spiritual death. Saying that Jesus did not bear
what should have been our never ending spiritual death. A spiritual death that would have been eternal in duration.
We would have all been forsaken by God forever if the Lord had not intervened on our behalf on the Cross.

And, as far as the Deity of Christ goes? That is true. There can be no separation in the Trinity. The Trinity was
not separated while the humanity of Christ was being forsaken by the Father.

With Jesus the amount of time of being forsaken was unlike what would have been our fate. It was not eternal
separation in duration. Why?

For Jesus never sinned. He never fell. It was our *finite* sins that caused the spiritual death. God in his wisdom has
all men die physically so the number of our sins would be finite.

Since we all die physically we have a finite number sins. Jesus only had to bear those finite sins.
If there were no redemption and co-crucifixion with Christ? Man would have no way back to God.
He would be resurrected to face judgement in his body of sin and would have to be thrown into fire
to cease sinning.

Apparently? What Civic was failing to see is that it was only the Humanity of Christ that the Father forsook in our place.
As our substitute. For, mankind without the atonement of the Cross? Would have been forsaken by God.

As far as the two natures of Christ in union? Civic is making the same mistake that Catholics do when they say Mary is the mother of God.
They can not differentiate between the two natures in union of Jesus as being two distinct natures. One is God. One is Humanity.
Since His glorification every expression of Jesus is made in the full power of God. It was not that way when he was needing to live
as a man. As a man he perfectly "reflected" the nature of God as a man ever could.

The two natures of Jesus is not some sort of puree that blends both natures together as to not know the humanity from the Deity.

There comes a time when we all have to work this out if we are to ever understand who and what God is presenting Himself to us
as being.

It takes time. And, the Devil will be resisting our desire to know. Only truth will over come.

 

[GeneZ]

all death is for the believer is an absence from the body and presence with the Lord. So His death did not cause any separation with the Father. I just answered in great detail this morning in this thread your misunderstanding of the Trinity and being forsaken. You can read the biblical answer I provided or ignore it that is on you, not me.

And, I just answered it in another forum. So there!

That is no way to discuss anything. And, you know it. Its a cop out technique.

Repeat the essence of what you said over there, over here!
That is how you have a constructive discussion.

 

[TedT]

One can acquire the same allergies, or medical condition of a parent genetically.
Happens all the time!

ImCo,
acquired traits or even the punishments for our sins from our parents is NOT the same as inheriting sinfulness. Death is the wages, the consequence, of our free will sinfulness, NOT a consequence of life nor hereditary. Death is passed to us all because we are all sinners, not because we are all human in Adam's sin.

 

[synergy]

That Civic made a claim that since Jesus is God (and He is God) that He could never be separated from the Father.
That the Father really did not forsake Jesus causing Jesus to know spiritual death. Saying that Jesus did not bear
what should have been our never ending spiritual death. A spiritual death that would have been eternal in duration.
We would have all been forsaken by God forever if the Lord had not intervened on our behalf on the Cross.

And, as far as the Deity of Christ goes? That is true. There can be no separation in the Trinity. The Trinity was
not separated while the humanity of Christ was being forsaken by the Father.

With Jesus the amount of time of being forsaken was unlike what would have been our fate. It was not eternal
separation in duration. Why?

For Jesus never sinned. He never fell. It was our *finite* sins that caused the spiritual death. God in his wisdom has
all men die physically so the number of our sins would be finite.

Since we all die physically we have a finite number sins. Jesus only had to bear those finite sins.
If there were no redemption and co-crucifixion with Christ? Man would have no way back to God.
He would be resurrected to face judgement in his body of sin and would have to be thrown into fire
to cease sinning.

Apparently? What Civic was failing to see is that it was only the Humanity of Christ that the Father forsook in our place.
As our substitute. For, mankind without the atonement of the Cross? Would have been forsaken by God.

As far as the two natures of Christ in union? Civic is making the same mistake that Catholics do when they say Mary is the mother of God.
They can not differentiate between the two natures in union of Jesus as being two distinct natures. One is God. One is Humanity.
Since His glorification every expression of Jesus is made in the full power of God. It was not that way when he was needing to live
as a man. As a man he perfectly "reflected" the nature of God as a man ever could.

The two natures of Jesus is not some sort of puree that blends both natures together as to not know the humanity from the Deity.

There comes a time when we all have to work this out if we are to ever understand who and what God is presenting Himself to us
as being.

It takes time. And, the Devil will be resisting our desire to know. Only truth will over come.

It's very difficult to fully understand everything that's going on when Christ cried out on the Cross. I'll give you my 2 cents worth.

First of all it's not possible for God the Father to forsake His Son in any real or factual sense, because the Father and the Son are intrinsically united as one God. The Trinity is indivisible. Jesus’ cry, therefore, does in no way indicate that there was a true abandonment.

Instead, Christ's prayer conveys that as human, He experienced that God the Father was distant. I believe that abandonment was humanly psychological, not actual (that is, not a true separation of the Trinity). God never abandons those close to Him, much less His Son. Nevertheless, it happens that even His closest followers can feel abandoned.

Therefore, in saying those words, Jesus was identifying Himself with every human being who has ever felt himself to be a great distance from God. It was the ultimate way to empathise with our predicament.

That's my two cents.

 

[sawdust]

how does our Sovereign God display His love in conjunction with His rule over mankind?

He penalises sin and rewards righteousness.

and turned His back upon His Son to bear God’s wrath on the cross.

Wrath is for the end, for those who reject God. It wasn't God's wrath that was poured out on the Cross. Christ suffered the penalty of sin, death.

It seems to me you think everyone who holds to PSA believes it was God's wrath being poured out and therefore you can't see past the fact that Jesus bore the penalty for our sin on the Cross, not the penalty for unbelief.

Christ is a Divine Person. natures do not die, people die. You misunderstand the Trinity and the 2 natures in Christ.

Sounds fancy but explains nothing and only serves to confuse even more. Persons don't die only people?

That is your error in this discussion.

We will all have to wait for our evaluation to see how much truth and error any of us hold. I'm sure you won't mind I don't take your word for it.

 

[GeneZ]

ImCo,
acquired traits or even the punishments for our sins from our parents is NOT the same as inheriting sinfulness. Death is the wages, the consequence, of our free will sinfulness, NOT a consequence of life nor hereditary. Death is passed to us all because we are all sinners, not because we are all human in Adam's sin.

You can acquire the negative "health effects" (punishment) for having the allergy your father also has...

If you insist and must be so exacting in demanding a literal sense?
Then take your bible and Wite Out all the metaphors Jesus used in the Gospels.



Jesus could have said, if knowledge of the day was like we have today....

"The sin nature is like your father having an allergy to pork... and you now find yourself having the same. "

The sin nature? We got it from Adam.

....... love you in the Lord!

 

[GeneZ]

It's very difficult to fully understand everything that's going on when Christ cried out on the Cross. I'll give you my 2 cents worth.

First of all it's not possible for God the Father to forsake His Son in any real or factual sense, because the Father and the Son are intrinsically united as one God. The Trinity is indivisible. Jesus’ cry, therefore, does in no way indicate that there was a true abandonment.

Its supposed to be impossible to understand until we gain enough knowledge of Bible doctrine to put it all together.

We need to pray to find and be taught more and more doctrine from a pastor who has the capacity to teach in that way.
Devotional messages never give us the knowledge to grow. Or a church where all they ever offer is the Gospel every week
and not a teaching of more and more doctrine to grow by.

Philippians 1:9

​

"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."​

That verse is in the Bible to inform us of what we need to seek to keep growing in grace and knowledge in Christ!


2 Peter 3:18

"But be always growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. ​

To Him be all glory, both now and to the day of Eternity!​

grace and peace !

 

[GeneZ]

What point are you trying to make?

The point you are both missing....

“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” Luke 22:42​

If Jesus was only one nature? How could his will be different from God the Father?

He is uniquely two natures in union that makes Him God when in God's plan He does not have to be as a man.

"yet not my will, but yours be done.”​

​

I would appreciate a direct honest response. Not one to go search out another thread to find one... ​

​

One that does not continue to avoid giving a response that should be obvious.​

​

Thank you.... ​

 

[synergy]

The point you are both missing....

“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” Luke 22:42​

If Jesus was only one nature? How could his will be different from God the Father?

He is uniquely two natures in union that makes Him God when in God's plan He does not have to be as a man.

"yet not my will, but yours be done.”​

Christ's two wills testifies to his two natures.

​

I would appreciate a direct honest response. Not one to go search out another thread to find one... ​

​

One that does not continue to avoid giving a response that should be obvious.​

​

Thank you.... ​

Why don't you just tell us what's "obvious" to you.

 

[civic]

The point you are both missing....

“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” Luke 22:42​

If Jesus was only one nature? How could his will be different from God the Father?

He is uniquely two natures in union that makes Him God when in God's plan He does not have to be as a man.

"yet not my will, but yours be done.”​

​

I would appreciate a direct honest response. Not one to go search out another thread to find one... ​

​

One that does not continue to avoid giving a response that should be obvious.​

​

Thank you.... ​

What is the cup Jesus mentioned and what does it mean ?

 

[Rowan]

Long before Gethsemane, Jesus realized that a cross would follow his earthly ministry. He repeatedly warns his disciples that he will eventually suffer and die. Even in Gethsemane the plea to “take this cup from me” isn’t about a struggle to accept a predetermined plan. It’s a struggle about living the way of love even in the pending doom of destruction. It’s a temptation to flee, to fight, and retaliate in the face of the ugly cross. Despite these temptations, Jesus chooses to stay in Jerusalem and face the harsh choruses of “crucify him, crucify him.”

You must remember that Jesus was fully God and fully man. He was able to be tempted in every way that we are.

 

[GeneZ]

What is the cup Jesus mentioned and what does it mean ?

What you are asking should not matter if Jesus were only God in function.

If Jesus were ALL God? As your Trinity hypothesis claimed? Its would not matter about the Cup.

If Jesus were only all God, and not also fully man? The Cup of suffering would not have been brought up.

His humanity had to face unspeakable anguish of coming in contact with our sins... and losing fellowship
with the Father and Holy Spirit.

Not only was he experience utter disgust to have to have the sins of the world poured on Him..
He had to experience the terror of the withdrawal of the Father and Holy Spirit's fellowship.
Both the Father and Holy Spirit needed to withdraw in the realm of having any contact with sin.
His anguish in the Garden was so great that His sweat became like drops of blood falling to the ground. Lk 22:44

My God (Father) My God (Holy Spirit)... why have you forsaken me?

As far as Jesus own Deity?

I believe what took place was as when a believer grieves the Spirit.. The Spirit cuts off contact in fellowship, but remains indwelling.
Likewise.. In regards to His own Deity. His own Deity remained within Him, but cut off fellowship with His soul.

During His being forsaken on the Cross the only thing Jesus possessed to keep Him going was knowing the Word of God.
Scripture thought to give Him the mental stability needed to endure to the end.

That end being? Took place when having the very last sin poured on Him, and no more to pour.

Each of our sins pierced His soul. But, since His soul never sinned? His soul could not be condemned by God for having contact
with our sins. Not condemned for what would have condemned us of whom if God imputed the penalty for personal sins.
Instead, Jesus who knew no sin of His own, bore our sins, and was able to endure and survive while God took those sins to their deaths
on the Cross.

That's all I have to share at this point....

God be my Judge.

 

[synergy]

Not only was he experience utter disgust to have to have the sins of the world poured on Him..
He had to experience the terror of the withdrawal of the Father and Holy Spirit's fellowship.
Both the Father and Holy Spirit needed to withdraw in the realm of having any contact with sin.
His anguish in the Garden was so great that His sweat became like drops of blood falling to the ground. Lk 22:44

My God never withdraws from nor abandons those close to Him, much less His Son.
My God doesn't cut and run.
Sin is not stronger than my God.
Maybe you're watching too many dark horror movies these days and they're depressing you.

 

[GeneZ]

My God never withdraws from nor abandons those close to Him, much less His Son.
My God doesn't cut and run.
Sin is not stronger than my God.
Maybe you're watching too many dark horror movies these days and they're depressing you.

I said... "withdraw fellowship."
I also said the Spirit does not leave.

The Holy Spirit in you will never leave you nor forsake you... (Hebrews 13:5)
But you can easily grieve Him by sin, and cut him off from being one with you.

Two different believers are found in the following verse.

"But he gives more grace. Therefore it says,
“God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” James 4:6

The Holy Spirit does not leave the arrogant believer. He just withdraws giving grace to that believer.


.........

 

[synergy]

I said... "withdraw fellowship."
I also said the Spirit does not leave.

Sound like a fair weather friend type of relationship, ready to withdraw when storms move in.

The Holy Spirit in you will never leave you nor forsake you... (Hebrews 13:5)
But you can easily grieve Him by sin, and cut him off from being one with you.

Here we're talking about the Son of God. Where is the "grieving" you're talking about?

Two different believers are found in the following verse.

"But he gives more grace. Therefore it says,
“God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” James 4:6

The Holy Spirit does not leave the arrogant believer. He just withdraws giving grace to that believer.
...

Again, we're talking about the Son of God here. Where is the "arrogance" you're talking about?

You're mixing up how God reacts to those who are pleasing to him with those who grieve him. If you would just focus how God reacts to those who please him then you would see that:

1. God never withdraws from nor abandons those close to Him, much less His Son.
2. God does not practice fair-weather "withdraw fellowshipping".
3. Sin is not stronger than God.

 

[GeneZ]

Sound like a fair weather friend type of relationship, ready to withdraw when storms move in.

Good bye, sir.

 

[synergy]

Good bye, sir.

No counterargument? Case closed.

 

[civic]

No counterargument? Case closed.

There never was a case for the other side

 

[GeneZ]

There never was a case for the other side

That's right.....

 

[civic]

Sound like a fair weather friend type of relationship, ready to withdraw when storms move in.

Here we're talking about the Son of God. Where is the "grieving" you're talking about?

Again, we're talking about the Son of God here. Where is the "arrogance" you're talking about?

You're mixing up how God reacts to those who are pleasing to him with those who grieve him. If you would just focus how God reacts to those who please him then you would see that:

1. God never withdraws from nor abandons those close to Him, much less His Son.
2. God does not practice fair-weather "withdraw fellowshipping".
3. Sin is not stronger than God.

Several here misunderstand the Tri-Unity of God and the 2 natures in Christ. Nestorianism is creeping into the picture.