GeneZ
Well-known member
That's being too reasonable.
Transmitting The Fallen Nature
- Thread starter Olde Tymer
- Start date
Well, they won't be turning them into bread.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Which part is the proclamation that He is the Messiah?
"I can quote the first part of a psalm! That proves I'm the messiah!"
or
"God has forsaken me! That proves I'm the messiah!"
Or maybe if He continued the quote, "why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. That proves I'm the messiah!"
The thing is, if Christ could not separate His Deity from His humanity in function then Christ lied when He said "He didn't know the day or hour". As God, He had to know, being omniscient.
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GeneZ
Well-known member
But He wasn't really forsaken according to Civic's reasoning.
Was it that Jesus was simply reading a script to a play for dramatic effect?
He was really saying?
My God! My God! How long do you want me to keep making believe you have forsaken me?
We need to stick with the Word.
oy vey ....
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This is the verse that has been nagging me the last two days. I finally remembered it. The Incarnation is a wonderful mystery. I never tire of meditating on it and it just blows my mind.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Yet Jesus has two natures. As God He needed to abase Himself and deny Himself of His rightful powers of Deity.
To become as man he operated by means of His second nature, his soul.
That is why we see passages written about Jesus that can not pertain to the nature of God.
"And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man." Luke 2:52
Its impossible for God to grow in wisdom! He was not to function as God, but as His soul living as a man.
That is why Philippians 2:6-8 tells us He did not function as God, though He had the right to.
He chose to deny Himself of the abilities of Deity.
Who, while being in the form of God, did not regard the being equal with God
a thing-to-be-grasped, but emptied Himself, having taken the form of a slave,
having come in the likeness of humans. And having been found as a man in
outward-appearance, He humbled Himself, having become obedient to the
point of death— and a death of a cross!
The Soul of Christ accepted the Father's will to become what was needed for the atonement.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Come on! Reason this one...
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” Luke 22:42
If He did not have a second nature?
God's will would not be anything different than what the Father wanted!!!!!
Yet, Jesus from His second nature (from his soul) had to align his will with the Father's!
Consistency!
GeneZ
Well-known member
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” Luke 22:42
If Jesus were only one nature?
How could Jesus' will be different from God the Father's?
Hello Civic... That is what I said.
GeneZ
Well-known member
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” Luke 22:42
If Jesus was only one nature? How could his will be different from God the Father?
He is uniquely two natures in union that makes Him God when in God's plan He does not have to be as a man.
"yet not my will, but yours be done.”
God would say that to God? How?
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GeneZ
Well-known member
Let me repeat that again, please... since apparently no one saw it the first time...
His humanity was cut off not His deity. It didn't "break" the Trinity at all.
His humanity does not "bleed" over into His Deity or vice versa.
Christ really died on the Cross, I'm sure you agree.
Did that "break' the Trinity?
Of course not because it was His humanity that died. Deity cannot die.
Imagine that! Deity can not die.
So if some here are making the blanket claim that Jesus is God, and only can manifest Himself as God?
Then there could be no death on the Cross..... God can not die!
Civic? Are you listening?
What point are you trying to make?
The point is some say He can die and not "break" the Trinity but He can't be forsaken.
civic
Well-known member
I answer that here in great detail for you @GeneZ and @sawdust
All doctrine begins with God at its starting point. God’s innate attributes are Aseity (God is self-sufficient), Infinite (without limit), Eternal (God has no beginning or end, he is timeless), Immutable (God is unchanging), Love (God is love), Holy (God is set-apart), Perichoresis (the indwelling of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). Divine Simplicity states God is Love because He is Love, not because He possesses that quality. God is the center of all the Divine Attributes. They point to His Being. God is not distinct from His nature.
God is Love. In love, the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John 4:19 tells us.
We must understand how God's attributes all work in harmony together, not in opposition to each other. God's attributes and character flow from His love—for God is love.
God being love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is love, and that love is perfect, lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love, by definition, has to be expressed with another, which is why a unitarian god cannot be love. Love requires another to share and express that love, and it is what we see with the Triune God. God is love before anyone/anything existed.
Before creation, there was no sin. There was no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, and justice. Why? Because those are God's secondary attributes concerning the creation and the fall. God's love is a primary attribute, like Holy is a primary one. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes, which were not in use until the creation and the fall.
Let’s examine how this works in conjunction with Gods sovereignty and His love. God is sovereign and also love. Both sovereignty and love as they intersect with God have been revealed plainly to us by God in His word. He has done this both through his word and his works. And God has sworn never to change for He is Immutable.
God's sovereignty is never exercised in violation of his love. His love is very everlasting, for God is love. The love of God has not the slightest shadow of variation, and it, not his sovereignty, is the basis upon which his moral standards rest. Any promotion of any doctrine that represents God as acting in a way that violates his love appealing to the fact that He is sovereign is found nowhere in the pages of scripture.
The fact that God can do something is not a justification for Him doing it. The fact that God can damn everyone without a reason is not an argument for justifying teaching that he does as in the Calvinist doctrine of double predestination. All that He can do is restricted by the standard that God values most which is His love. If it will violate love, God will not and cannot do it for that would be contrary to His nature and character as a loving God. And if it will violate love then it is not right. God cannot make it right by doing it just because He is sovereign. If God does it just because He is sovereign then He would not be God but something else.
What makes God, God is so intricately bound to his intent for doing things that if He were to do a thing just by virtue of the fact that He is sovereign and can do it rather than by virtue of the fact that it is loving? He would not be God as we know Him but something else. If sovereignty is what defines what makes up love in such a way that God doing anything is what defines love, then love has no meaning and can be anything and everything it is and opposes any time, which is ridiculous.
This below is from the Calvinist Theologian Abraham Kuyper on God is love:
“Before God created heaven and earth with all their inhabitants, the eternal Love of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit shone with unseen splendor in the divine Being. Love exists, not for the sake of the world, but for God's sake; and when the world came into existence, Love remained unchanged; and if every creature were to disappear, it would remain just as rich and glorious as ever. Love exists and works in the Eternal Being apart from the creature; and its radiation upon the, creature is but a feeble reflection of its being.
Love is not God, but God is Love; and He is sufficient to Himself to love absolutely and forever. He has no need of the creature, and the exercise of His Love did not begin with the creature whom He could love, but it flows and springs eternally in the Love-life of the Triune God. God is Love; its perfection, divine beauty, real dimensions, and holiness are not found in men, not even in the best of God's children, but scintillate only around the Throne of God.
The unity of Love with the Confession of the Trinity is the starting-point from which we proceed to base Love independently in God, absolutely independent of the creature or anything creaturely. This is not to make the divine Trinity a philosophic deduction from essential love. That is unlawful; if God had not revealed this mystery in His Word we should be totally ignorant of it. But since the Scripture puts the Triune Being before us as the Object of our adoration, and upon almost every page most highly exalts the mutual Love of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and delineates it as an Eternal Love, we know and plainly see that this holy Love may never be represented but as springing from the mutual love of the divine Persons.
Hence through the mystery of the Trinity, the Love which is in God and is God obtains its independent existence, apart from the creature, independent of the emotions of mind and heart; and it rises as a sun, with its own fire and rays, outside of man, in God, in whom it rests and from whom it radiates.
In this way we eradicate every comparison of the Love of God with our love. In this way the false mingling ceases. In principle we resist the reversing of positions whereby arrogant man had succeeded in copying from himself a so-called God of Love, and into silencing all adoration. In this way the soul returns to the blessed confession that God is Love, and the way of divine mercy and pity is opened whereby the brightness of that Sun can radiate in a human way, i.e., in a finite and imperfect manner to and in the human heart, to the praise of God. “From his book on the Work of the Holy Spirit Volume 3, Second Chapter Love- xviii Love in the Triune Being of God “
God can do anything and everything is what sovereignty means by definition. God will only do what is loving and what is righteousness. Righteousness is the foundation of his throne. In other words, righteousness is the constraint of his sovereign rule. Love is how God rules His creation. Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Mercy and all the other attributes of God fall under the umbrella of His love. God being love is foundational to Gods nature, character, the gospel and the entire purpose for Christs 1st Coming. John 3:16. God rules by His love. The question we need to be asking ourselves is this, how does our Sovereign God display His love in conjunction with His rule over mankind?
civic
Well-known member
Psalm 22
The messianic passage of Psalm 22 was played out before their very eyes, and Jesus quotes the opening verse letting His persecutors know that He truly is the Son of God, the Messiah, by quoting Psalm 22. The passage was being lived out before all witnesses of the crucifixion. It is a proclamation and a declaration that He is the Messiah, God's One and Only Son who gave His life as a ransom for many.
What the Father did allow to happen and not rescue His Son from was His death and suffering from those wicked leaders to be our sacrifice for sin. The entire weight of that was upon Him to bear alone, but the Father never left Him. He was there hearing His prayers and answering them upon His death. Moreover, let us not forget Jesus' promise to the sinner, "Today, you will be with me in paradise Luke 23:4." For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. The Trinity was never fractured, broken, or severed for even a moment, but together, the Godhead accomplished salvation for sinners.
It was a Triune effort that worked out to perfection as They had planned from the very beginning. Furthermore, when this reconciliation took place at the cross, we read that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself - 2 Corinthians 5:19. The book of Romans states that "God demonstrated His love for us that while we were still sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). So Jesus' sacrificial atonement both propitiates (turns away God’s wrath) and expiates (covers our sins). Gods’ wrath does not fall on the sacrifice. Scripture teaches us that sin was condemned in the flesh, not that Jesus was condemned (Romans 8:3).
Psalm 22
My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
2 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
3 Yet You are holy,
O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4 In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You delivered them.
5 To You they cried out and were delivered;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
A reproach of men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
8 “Commit yourself to the Lord; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”
9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.
10 Upon You I was cast from birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.
11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And You lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But You, O Lord, be not far off;
O You my help, hasten to my assistance.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth;
From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.
22 I will tell of Your name to my brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And stand in awe of Him, all you of Israel.
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
25 From You comes my praise in the great assembly;I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
26 The afflicted will eat and be satisfied;Those who seek Him will praise the Lord.Let your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord,And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord’s And He rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship, All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30 Posterity will serve Him;It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.31 They will come and will declare His righteousness To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.
There are 10 points about God and Jesus' last words that are important to examine. Some people taught when Jesus said (My God My God why have Thou forsaken Me) that the Father departed, deserted, and turned His back upon His Son to bear God’s wrath on the cross. They teach from the pulpits that God is too Holy to look upon sin. However, is this teaching biblical? Is it true?
1-God is Triune- Tri-Unity
2- The Trinity cannot be broken, separated, or abandoned.
3- God does not send His wrath against God
4- Jesus is God
5- Context has meaning, and all the gospel accounts work together along with the O.T. quotations
6-In Luke 23:46, Jesus' last words were," Father into Thy hands I commit my Spirit."
7- Within Psalm 22, there are numerous details regarding Jesus' crucifixion. For example, Psalms 22 and the gospels say He was mocked, despised, hurled insults, cast lots, divided His clothes, let God rescue Him. Further, Psalm 22:24 also says God has not despised Him nor hidden His face from Him and listened to His cry for help.
8- Psalm 22:24 coincides with Jesus' trust and relationship with the Father when he states, "Into your hands, I commit MY Spirit."
9- Psalm 22:1 was Jesus’ cry in response to his enemies' surrounding him like David, not about the Father turning away from him.
10- Psalm 22 and Jesus last words are a declaration, a proclamation that He is the promised Messiah described in great detail in this Psalm.
Though often taught from the pulpit and widely accepted within Christianity, there is a common misnomer that God cannot look upon sin.
This misnomer or idea is rooted in a misunderstanding of Habakkuk 1:13, which states, "Your eyes are too pure to look upon evil." To expand upon the meaning of this verse, God cannot look at sin favorably or with complacency. However, this verse does not state that God cannot look at sin or that He cannot allow sin in His presence. God did not turn His back on Adam when he sinned--God sought him out. God did not turn His back on David when he sinned. In the book of Job, God allowed satan in His presence for a specific purpose. Satan wanted to make a deal with God over His servant, Job. God restricted Satan, telling him that he "can do anything but touch Job" and not to "lay a hand or finger on him." In the wilderness, Jesus allowed the presence of satan (face to face).
Jesus did not turn His back on Saul when he was persecuting the church and sought him out on the Damascus Road and said to him," why are you persecuting Me?" If God did not turn His back on sinners, then neither did the Father turn His back on His only Son who is Holy, Blameless, Sinless, and Righteous just like His Father. The Father turning His back on the Son (at the cross) is not found in Scripture. Jesus ate with sinners, lived among sinners, loves sinners and He suffered and died for sinners.
The messianic passage of Psalm 22 was played out before their very eyes, and Jesus quotes the opening verse letting His persecutors know that He truly is the Son of God, the Messiah, by quoting Psalm 22. The passage was being lived out before all witnesses of the crucifixion. It is a proclamation and a declaration that He is the Messiah, God's One and Only Son who gave His life as a ransom for many.
What the Father did allow to happen and not rescue His Son from was His death and suffering from those wicked leaders to be our sacrifice for sin. The entire weight of that was upon Him to bear alone, but the Father never left Him. He was there hearing His prayers and answering them upon His death. Moreover, let us not forget Jesus' promise to the sinner, "Today, you will be with me in paradise Luke 23:4." For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. The Trinity was never fractured, broken, or severed for even a moment, but together, the Godhead accomplished salvation for sinners.
It was a Triune effort that worked out to perfection as They had planned from the very beginning. Furthermore, when this reconciliation took place at the cross, we read that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself - 2 Corinthians 5:19. The book of Romans states that "God demonstrated His love for us that while we were still sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). So Jesus' sacrificial atonement both propitiates (turns away God’s wrath) and expiates (covers our sins). Gods’ wrath does not fall on the sacrifice. Scripture teaches us that sin was condemned in the flesh, not that Jesus was condemned (Romans 8:3).
Psalm 22
My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
2 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
3 Yet You are holy,
O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4 In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You delivered them.
5 To You they cried out and were delivered;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
A reproach of men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
8 “Commit yourself to the Lord; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”
9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.
10 Upon You I was cast from birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.
11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And You lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But You, O Lord, be not far off;
O You my help, hasten to my assistance.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth;
From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.
22 I will tell of Your name to my brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And stand in awe of Him, all you of Israel.
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
25 From You comes my praise in the great assembly;I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
26 The afflicted will eat and be satisfied;Those who seek Him will praise the Lord.Let your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord,And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord’s And He rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship, All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30 Posterity will serve Him;It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.31 They will come and will declare His righteousness To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.
There are 10 points about God and Jesus' last words that are important to examine. Some people taught when Jesus said (My God My God why have Thou forsaken Me) that the Father departed, deserted, and turned His back upon His Son to bear God’s wrath on the cross. They teach from the pulpits that God is too Holy to look upon sin. However, is this teaching biblical? Is it true?
1-God is Triune- Tri-Unity
2- The Trinity cannot be broken, separated, or abandoned.
3- God does not send His wrath against God
4- Jesus is God
5- Context has meaning, and all the gospel accounts work together along with the O.T. quotations
6-In Luke 23:46, Jesus' last words were," Father into Thy hands I commit my Spirit."
7- Within Psalm 22, there are numerous details regarding Jesus' crucifixion. For example, Psalms 22 and the gospels say He was mocked, despised, hurled insults, cast lots, divided His clothes, let God rescue Him. Further, Psalm 22:24 also says God has not despised Him nor hidden His face from Him and listened to His cry for help.
8- Psalm 22:24 coincides with Jesus' trust and relationship with the Father when he states, "Into your hands, I commit MY Spirit."
9- Psalm 22:1 was Jesus’ cry in response to his enemies' surrounding him like David, not about the Father turning away from him.
10- Psalm 22 and Jesus last words are a declaration, a proclamation that He is the promised Messiah described in great detail in this Psalm.
Though often taught from the pulpit and widely accepted within Christianity, there is a common misnomer that God cannot look upon sin.
This misnomer or idea is rooted in a misunderstanding of Habakkuk 1:13, which states, "Your eyes are too pure to look upon evil." To expand upon the meaning of this verse, God cannot look at sin favorably or with complacency. However, this verse does not state that God cannot look at sin or that He cannot allow sin in His presence. God did not turn His back on Adam when he sinned--God sought him out. God did not turn His back on David when he sinned. In the book of Job, God allowed satan in His presence for a specific purpose. Satan wanted to make a deal with God over His servant, Job. God restricted Satan, telling him that he "can do anything but touch Job" and not to "lay a hand or finger on him." In the wilderness, Jesus allowed the presence of satan (face to face).
Jesus did not turn His back on Saul when he was persecuting the church and sought him out on the Damascus Road and said to him," why are you persecuting Me?" If God did not turn His back on sinners, then neither did the Father turn His back on His only Son who is Holy, Blameless, Sinless, and Righteous just like His Father. The Father turning His back on the Son (at the cross) is not found in Scripture. Jesus ate with sinners, lived among sinners, loves sinners and He suffered and died for sinners.
civic
Well-known member
Wrath- strongs 3709 ὀργή is defined in the Greek lexicon as anger, retribution, vengeance, and indignation. God is not against Himself angrily displaying wrath from the Father to the Son. God is love. In love, He sent His Son. The wrath bearing Son is a new concept not found in Scripture nor the early church fathers (ECFs). God is not against Himself. No one in the Trinity is in opposition, no conflict, no dissension, no strife, no disunity, no dysfunction. As if God were somehow like a sinful human family. There is nothing broken in Our Blessed Trinity.
Jesus bearing God’s wrath and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in the pages of Scripture. That doctrine was developed in the dark ages during the Reformation and called Penal Substitution Theory of the Atonement or (PSA)
Calvin's comments on Galatians 3:13,
"He could not cease to be the object of his Father’s love, and yet he endured his wrath. For how could he reconcile the Father to us, if he had incurred his hatred and displeasure? We conclude, that he “did always those things that pleased” (John 8:29) his Father. Again, how would he have freed us from the wrath of God, if he had not transferred it from us to himself? Thus, “he was wounded for our transgressions,” (Isaiah 53:5,) and had to deal with God as an angry judge."
The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.
Psalm 22:24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.
Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
John 16:32 "A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."
Hebrews 5:7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.
Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath” and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in Scripture.
In Matthew 26:39, Jesus says, "If it be your will, let this cup pass from me." Jesus tells us precisely what the cup was. It was the cup of his suffering, which meant that He would die an agonizing death as a martyr. In the passage below, Jesus told His disciples that they would also drink of the same "cup":
Matthew 20:17- Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
1Thessalonians 5:9-For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
As we see above it was not the cup of wrath Jesus was speaking about but it was the suffering He was going to have to endure for our sins. God has not appointed us to wrath and the cup means the suffering of Jesus and that the disciples would also suffer death as martyrs. In fact, many scriptures testify that believers too will suffer persecution for being a follower of Jesus. Suffering persecution is a promise for a believer who follows Jesus, it is something we should expect to happen in our life.
2 Timothy 3:12- Yes, and everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
John 15:20 Remember the word that I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well.
Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
2 Corinthians 4:9- persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.
Wrath from God is not required for the forgiveness of sins, that is a misnomer.
Exodus 34:6 Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth;
Isaiah 48:9 For the sake of My name I will delay My wrath; for the sake of My praise I will restrain it, so that you will not be cut off.
Psalm 78:38 And yet He was compassionate; He forgave their iniquity and did not destroy them. He often restrained His anger and did not unleash His full wrath.
Psalm 85:1-3 You, Lord, showed favor to your land;you restored the fortunes of Jacob.2 You forgave the iniquity of your people and covered all their sins. 3 You set aside all your wrath and turned from your fierce anger.
The wrath of God (Isaiah 53)
Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.
In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God. The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25. Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.
Jesus bearing God’s wrath and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in the pages of Scripture. That doctrine was developed in the dark ages during the Reformation and called Penal Substitution Theory of the Atonement or (PSA)
Calvin's comments on Galatians 3:13,
"He could not cease to be the object of his Father’s love, and yet he endured his wrath. For how could he reconcile the Father to us, if he had incurred his hatred and displeasure? We conclude, that he “did always those things that pleased” (John 8:29) his Father. Again, how would he have freed us from the wrath of God, if he had not transferred it from us to himself? Thus, “he was wounded for our transgressions,” (Isaiah 53:5,) and had to deal with God as an angry judge."
The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.
Psalm 22:24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.
Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
John 16:32 "A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."
Hebrews 5:7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.
Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath” and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in Scripture.
In Matthew 26:39, Jesus says, "If it be your will, let this cup pass from me." Jesus tells us precisely what the cup was. It was the cup of his suffering, which meant that He would die an agonizing death as a martyr. In the passage below, Jesus told His disciples that they would also drink of the same "cup":
Matthew 20:17- Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
1Thessalonians 5:9-For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
As we see above it was not the cup of wrath Jesus was speaking about but it was the suffering He was going to have to endure for our sins. God has not appointed us to wrath and the cup means the suffering of Jesus and that the disciples would also suffer death as martyrs. In fact, many scriptures testify that believers too will suffer persecution for being a follower of Jesus. Suffering persecution is a promise for a believer who follows Jesus, it is something we should expect to happen in our life.
2 Timothy 3:12- Yes, and everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
John 15:20 Remember the word that I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well.
Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
2 Corinthians 4:9- persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.
Wrath from God is not required for the forgiveness of sins, that is a misnomer.
Exodus 34:6 Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth;
Isaiah 48:9 For the sake of My name I will delay My wrath; for the sake of My praise I will restrain it, so that you will not be cut off.
Psalm 78:38 And yet He was compassionate; He forgave their iniquity and did not destroy them. He often restrained His anger and did not unleash His full wrath.
Psalm 85:1-3 You, Lord, showed favor to your land;you restored the fortunes of Jacob.2 You forgave the iniquity of your people and covered all their sins. 3 You set aside all your wrath and turned from your fierce anger.
The wrath of God (Isaiah 53)
Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.
In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God. The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25. Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.
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Atonement- katallagé καταλλαγή -reconciliation, restoration to favor. Strongs 2643.
Thayers: adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favor, (from Aeschylus on); in the N. T., of the restoration of the favor of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ: 2 Corinthians 5:18f; with the genitive of the one received into favor, τοῦ κόσμου (opposed to ἀποβολή), Romans 11:15; καταλλαγήν ἐλάβομεν, we received the blessing of the recovered favor of God, Romans 5:11; with the genitive of him whose favor is recovered, 2 Macc. 5:20. (Cf. Trench, § lxxvii.)
Romans 5:11- And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. KJV
Romans 5:11- And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. NASB
1 Corinthians 5:7 say the following: For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. This means just like the firstborn were spared by the blood on the posts of their doors from God’s wrath so to are we passed over Gods wrath from the blood of Jesus. The blood of Jesus provides forgiveness of sins and God’s wrath like with the Israelites are passed over and it falls upon the wicked, not those covered and protected by the blood of the Lamb. Gods’ wrath as Romans 1 declares is still being poured out upon sin and ungodliness and the bowls of Gods wrath and punishment is still yet to come. So, if Jesus bore Gods’ wrath for sinners, then why is God’s wrath still being poured out now and in the future if in the Atonement Gods wrath was satisfied? The fact is Jesus did not bear God’s wrath on the cross because it still exists and is being poured out in the bowls of Revelation before His 2nd Coming.
Romans 1:18- The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness
Romans 5:9- Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!
Colossians 3:6-Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.
Ephesians 5:6- Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience
Thessalonians 1:10- and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
Propitiation- the turning away of God's anger/wrath
Expiation- the covering for our sins
Through expiation—the work of Christ on the cross for us—the sin of all those who would ever believe in Christ was canceled. That cancellation is eternal in its consequence, even though sin is still present in the temporal sense. In other words, believers are delivered from the penalty and power of sin, but not the presence of it. Justification is the term for being delivered from the penalty of sin. This is a one-time act wherein the sinner is justified and made holy and righteous in the eyes of God, who exchanged our sinful natures for the righteousness of Christ at the cross (2 Corinthians 5:21). Sanctification is the ongoing process whereby believers are delivered from the power of sin in their lives and are enabled by the new nature to resist and turn away from it. Glorification is when we are removed from the very presence of sin, which will only occur once we leave this world and are in heaven. All these processes—justification, sanctification, and glorification—are made possible through the expiation or cancellation of sin. (gotquestions.org)
Propitiation vs. Expiation- The New Testament usage of hilaskomai and hilasmos, consistent with its precedent usage in the Greek Old Testament, speaks consistently of God’s atoning action in Christ directed toward sin on behalf of sinners, not human action directed toward God to satisfy God. The criterion for interpretation, Stott has said, “is whether the object of the atoning action is God or man.” “Propitiation” indicates an action by humans directed toward God, and “expiation” indicates an action by God toward sin and sinners. According to Stott's criterion, these texts favor "expiation" over “propitiation.” Given the choice of translating hilastērion either “propitiation” or “expiation,” therefore, “expiation” is preferable based on the textual evidence of both the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament. James Dunn summarizes well the case for preferring “expiation” to “propitiation” as a translation for hilastērion: Darrin W. Snyder Belousek, Atonement, Justice, and Peace: The Message of the Cross and the Mission of the Church (Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2012), 247–252.
Here is the only other use from 1 John 4:10 that the NASB translated as propitiation.
Below love is used 13 times which is the overwhelming evidence it means atoning sacrifice, expiation and not propitiation which would be a direct contradiction to the context of the passage. Johns’ emphasis is on God’s love used 13 times in the passage. Context determines the meaning of a word and its clear from the context hilasmos means expiation and not propitiation.
1 John 4:7-12
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. NIV
Now here is the interesting thing it is used in the context of God’s love, not Gods anger/wrath that needs appeasing. There are better translations of the Greek word below. The "context" makes it clear in 1 John 4 that its Gods love and not His anger/wrath that needs appeasing which is the emphasis in 1 John 4:10.
New International Version
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
New American Bible
In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as expiation for our sins.
NET Bible
In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
New Revised Standard Version
In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
So, as we see, the Tri-Unity of God is eternal, and the Father / Son relationship remained perfect through the crucifixion of Jesus. Our Triune God perfectly accomplished the atonement and our salvation through Jesus suffering for our sins on the cross, and His Resurrection from the dead gave Him and the church victory over sin, death, the devil, and the world.
Purification for sin- καθαρισμός- katharismos: a cleansing, purifying, purification, expiation. Strongs 2512.
Thayers: a cleansing from the guilt of sins (see καθαρίζω, 1 b. β.): wrought now by baptism, 2 Peter 1:9, now by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ, Hebrews 1:3 on which cf. Kurtz, Commentary, p. 70; (Exodus 30:10; τῆς ἁμαρτίας μου, Job 7:21; of an atonement, Lucian, asin. 22)
Hebrews 1:3-And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Purification for sin is in the blood of Christ in the Atonement
Matthew 26:26-29 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Hebrews 9:22 Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Leviticus 4:20,26,35 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them
Leviticus 6:7 And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.
Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.
The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood, His life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood that He gave His life on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal sacrifice.
There is no "punishment" above anywhere. There is a sacrifice provided which covers and provides forgiveness of sins. The entire book of Hebrews is built upon the OT Law and how it is fulfilled in Christ.
Jesus said He gave His life as a Ransom . Strongs 3038- Lutron λύτρον. the purchasing money for manumitting slaves, a ransom, the price of ransoming; especially the sacrifice by which expiation is effected, an offering of expiation. Thayers: λύτρον, λύτρου, τό (λύω), the Sept. passim for כֹּפֶר, גְּאֻלָּה, פִּדְיון, etc.; the price for redeeming, ransom (paid for slaves, Leviticus 19:20; for captives, Isaiah 45:13; for the ransom of a life, Exodus 21:30; Numbers 35:31f): ἀντί πολλῶν, to liberate many from the misery and penalty of their sins, Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45. (Pindar, Aeschylus, Xenophon, Plato, others.)
Matthew 20:28- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many
Thayers: adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favor, (from Aeschylus on); in the N. T., of the restoration of the favor of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ: 2 Corinthians 5:18f; with the genitive of the one received into favor, τοῦ κόσμου (opposed to ἀποβολή), Romans 11:15; καταλλαγήν ἐλάβομεν, we received the blessing of the recovered favor of God, Romans 5:11; with the genitive of him whose favor is recovered, 2 Macc. 5:20. (Cf. Trench, § lxxvii.)
Romans 5:11- And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. KJV
Romans 5:11- And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. NASB
1 Corinthians 5:7 say the following: For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. This means just like the firstborn were spared by the blood on the posts of their doors from God’s wrath so to are we passed over Gods wrath from the blood of Jesus. The blood of Jesus provides forgiveness of sins and God’s wrath like with the Israelites are passed over and it falls upon the wicked, not those covered and protected by the blood of the Lamb. Gods’ wrath as Romans 1 declares is still being poured out upon sin and ungodliness and the bowls of Gods wrath and punishment is still yet to come. So, if Jesus bore Gods’ wrath for sinners, then why is God’s wrath still being poured out now and in the future if in the Atonement Gods wrath was satisfied? The fact is Jesus did not bear God’s wrath on the cross because it still exists and is being poured out in the bowls of Revelation before His 2nd Coming.
Romans 1:18- The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness
Romans 5:9- Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!
Colossians 3:6-Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.
Ephesians 5:6- Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience
Thessalonians 1:10- and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
Propitiation- the turning away of God's anger/wrath
Expiation- the covering for our sins
Through expiation—the work of Christ on the cross for us—the sin of all those who would ever believe in Christ was canceled. That cancellation is eternal in its consequence, even though sin is still present in the temporal sense. In other words, believers are delivered from the penalty and power of sin, but not the presence of it. Justification is the term for being delivered from the penalty of sin. This is a one-time act wherein the sinner is justified and made holy and righteous in the eyes of God, who exchanged our sinful natures for the righteousness of Christ at the cross (2 Corinthians 5:21). Sanctification is the ongoing process whereby believers are delivered from the power of sin in their lives and are enabled by the new nature to resist and turn away from it. Glorification is when we are removed from the very presence of sin, which will only occur once we leave this world and are in heaven. All these processes—justification, sanctification, and glorification—are made possible through the expiation or cancellation of sin. (gotquestions.org)
Propitiation vs. Expiation- The New Testament usage of hilaskomai and hilasmos, consistent with its precedent usage in the Greek Old Testament, speaks consistently of God’s atoning action in Christ directed toward sin on behalf of sinners, not human action directed toward God to satisfy God. The criterion for interpretation, Stott has said, “is whether the object of the atoning action is God or man.” “Propitiation” indicates an action by humans directed toward God, and “expiation” indicates an action by God toward sin and sinners. According to Stott's criterion, these texts favor "expiation" over “propitiation.” Given the choice of translating hilastērion either “propitiation” or “expiation,” therefore, “expiation” is preferable based on the textual evidence of both the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament. James Dunn summarizes well the case for preferring “expiation” to “propitiation” as a translation for hilastērion: Darrin W. Snyder Belousek, Atonement, Justice, and Peace: The Message of the Cross and the Mission of the Church (Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2012), 247–252.
Here is the only other use from 1 John 4:10 that the NASB translated as propitiation.
Below love is used 13 times which is the overwhelming evidence it means atoning sacrifice, expiation and not propitiation which would be a direct contradiction to the context of the passage. Johns’ emphasis is on God’s love used 13 times in the passage. Context determines the meaning of a word and its clear from the context hilasmos means expiation and not propitiation.
1 John 4:7-12
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. NIV
Now here is the interesting thing it is used in the context of God’s love, not Gods anger/wrath that needs appeasing. There are better translations of the Greek word below. The "context" makes it clear in 1 John 4 that its Gods love and not His anger/wrath that needs appeasing which is the emphasis in 1 John 4:10.
New International Version
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
New American Bible
In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as expiation for our sins.
NET Bible
In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
New Revised Standard Version
In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
So, as we see, the Tri-Unity of God is eternal, and the Father / Son relationship remained perfect through the crucifixion of Jesus. Our Triune God perfectly accomplished the atonement and our salvation through Jesus suffering for our sins on the cross, and His Resurrection from the dead gave Him and the church victory over sin, death, the devil, and the world.
Purification for sin- καθαρισμός- katharismos: a cleansing, purifying, purification, expiation. Strongs 2512.
Thayers: a cleansing from the guilt of sins (see καθαρίζω, 1 b. β.): wrought now by baptism, 2 Peter 1:9, now by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ, Hebrews 1:3 on which cf. Kurtz, Commentary, p. 70; (Exodus 30:10; τῆς ἁμαρτίας μου, Job 7:21; of an atonement, Lucian, asin. 22)
Hebrews 1:3-And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Purification for sin is in the blood of Christ in the Atonement
Matthew 26:26-29 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Hebrews 9:22 Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Leviticus 4:20,26,35 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them
Leviticus 6:7 And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.
Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.
The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood, His life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood that He gave His life on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal sacrifice.
There is no "punishment" above anywhere. There is a sacrifice provided which covers and provides forgiveness of sins. The entire book of Hebrews is built upon the OT Law and how it is fulfilled in Christ.
Jesus said He gave His life as a Ransom . Strongs 3038- Lutron λύτρον. the purchasing money for manumitting slaves, a ransom, the price of ransoming; especially the sacrifice by which expiation is effected, an offering of expiation. Thayers: λύτρον, λύτρου, τό (λύω), the Sept. passim for כֹּפֶר, גְּאֻלָּה, פִּדְיון, etc.; the price for redeeming, ransom (paid for slaves, Leviticus 19:20; for captives, Isaiah 45:13; for the ransom of a life, Exodus 21:30; Numbers 35:31f): ἀντί πολλῶν, to liberate many from the misery and penalty of their sins, Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45. (Pindar, Aeschylus, Xenophon, Plato, others.)
Matthew 20:28- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many
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hilastērion – the atonement is received by Faith.
Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. NIV
Romans 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. ESV
The Atonement is received by faith. The offering of the Atonement for sin cannot be obtained apart from faith. The atonement for sin has been made and it cannot be applied to mankind apart from faith. Jesus has made an atonement for sin but it produces no reconciliation, no pardon from sin, no remission of sin unless is accepted or received by faith.
The fallacy of the sufficient for all, efficient for some with the Atonement.
We must go back to the gospel and what the scriptures teach about the good news of Jesus death, burial and resurrection as defined in 1 Corinthians 15.
1 Corinthians 15:17- And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
The passage declares if Christ is not risen, raised from the dead, resurrected then our faith is in vain and we are still dead in our sins. We are saved by His life/Resurrection not His death. His death atoned for sin but does not give life.
Romans 4:24-25 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Paul declares in Romans 5:10 the following: For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Cf Acts 17:31.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
We know that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10:17. We know that God saves those who believe – 1 Corinthians 1:21. We know that we receive the spirit and are sealed with the spirit through belief in the gospel- Ephesians 1:13.
Sin is the transgression of the law- 1 John 3:4. Sin is known thorough/by the law- Romans 7:7. The law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ- Galatians 3:24-25. Where there is no law there is no transgression of the law- Romans 4:14. Sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law. Romans 5:13.
In Colossians 2:13-15 we read the following: When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Ephesians 2:14-15: For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
2 Corinthians 5:18-20: All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
So, we see from the above scriptures it’s not sin per se that keeps the sinner from God it is unbelief. Faith is the issue. In Romans 5:1-2 we read the following: Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God
Its unbelief that keeps one from salvation and places them under condemnation. This is taught throughout the N.T. gospels and epistles. Here we see what Jesus and Paul declared below.
John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 3:36: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them
Romans 11:20: Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.
Hebrews 3:19: So, we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. Cf Heb 4:6- unbelief
Who was responsible for putting Jesus to death, was it God or man?
Matthew 16:21-From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life
Matthew 20:18-19 -“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified.
Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.
Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take
Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross
Acts 4:10,11 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…
Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 7:52 Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him
Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him
1 Corinthians 2:8- None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory
Conclusion
As we have seen reading through these O.T. passages quoted in the N.T., we discover that the N.T. does not use the penal language that was developed during the Reformation in the dark ages as that was how that culture during that time had dealt with people in their judicial system punishing those who disagreed with them, torture and death were a result for many who went against their theology. That was the mentality of those who developed the doctrine we have today called the PSA atonement. There are many aspects and theories of the atonement that contain truth, and no one theory is 100% correct. There are many different views and aspects to the atonement within orthodoxy. The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John. Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin. Jesus said: “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The reason my Father loves Me is that I lay down My life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord” (John 10:11; 17-18). Or again, while speaking to the multitudes, Jesus declared: “Whatever the Father does the Son also does” (John 5:19). And Jesus said: “Now my heart is troubled. ‘Father, save me from this hour?’ No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!” (John 12:27-28) The clear picture that emerges from Scripture is that Jesus was not the unfortunate victim of the angry Father. Rather, the Father and the Son were working in concert through the cross to pay for the sins of humanity and make atonement. There is no division of will between the Father and the Son.The viewpoint in this paper brings out the fact that Jesus’ atonement was done in love which provided covering and forgiveness of sins. And this view harmonizes with God’s wrath that is still yet to come and was not poured out on Jesus on the cross. Our loving God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). Our loving Father took pleasure to bruise His Son to reconcile us to God as an offering for our sins. (Isaiah 53:10).
It is by faith in the Son through the message of the gospel that saves and unbelief which condemns. The gospel is for all mankind, all the world, for everyone. God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4). God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers (1 Timothy. 4:10), For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all (Romans 11:32). The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). God sent His Son into the world to take away the sin of the world (John 1:29) and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2). and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again (2 Corinthians 5:15). But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)
hope this helps !!!
Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. NIV
Romans 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. ESV
The Atonement is received by faith. The offering of the Atonement for sin cannot be obtained apart from faith. The atonement for sin has been made and it cannot be applied to mankind apart from faith. Jesus has made an atonement for sin but it produces no reconciliation, no pardon from sin, no remission of sin unless is accepted or received by faith.
The fallacy of the sufficient for all, efficient for some with the Atonement.
We must go back to the gospel and what the scriptures teach about the good news of Jesus death, burial and resurrection as defined in 1 Corinthians 15.
1 Corinthians 15:17- And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
The passage declares if Christ is not risen, raised from the dead, resurrected then our faith is in vain and we are still dead in our sins. We are saved by His life/Resurrection not His death. His death atoned for sin but does not give life.
Romans 4:24-25 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Paul declares in Romans 5:10 the following: For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Cf Acts 17:31.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
We know that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10:17. We know that God saves those who believe – 1 Corinthians 1:21. We know that we receive the spirit and are sealed with the spirit through belief in the gospel- Ephesians 1:13.
Sin is the transgression of the law- 1 John 3:4. Sin is known thorough/by the law- Romans 7:7. The law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ- Galatians 3:24-25. Where there is no law there is no transgression of the law- Romans 4:14. Sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law. Romans 5:13.
In Colossians 2:13-15 we read the following: When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Ephesians 2:14-15: For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
2 Corinthians 5:18-20: All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
So, we see from the above scriptures it’s not sin per se that keeps the sinner from God it is unbelief. Faith is the issue. In Romans 5:1-2 we read the following: Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God
Its unbelief that keeps one from salvation and places them under condemnation. This is taught throughout the N.T. gospels and epistles. Here we see what Jesus and Paul declared below.
John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 3:36: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them
Romans 11:20: Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.
Hebrews 3:19: So, we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. Cf Heb 4:6- unbelief
Who was responsible for putting Jesus to death, was it God or man?
Matthew 16:21-From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life
Matthew 20:18-19 -“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified.
Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.
Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take
Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross
Acts 4:10,11 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…
Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 7:52 Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him
Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him
1 Corinthians 2:8- None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory
Conclusion
As we have seen reading through these O.T. passages quoted in the N.T., we discover that the N.T. does not use the penal language that was developed during the Reformation in the dark ages as that was how that culture during that time had dealt with people in their judicial system punishing those who disagreed with them, torture and death were a result for many who went against their theology. That was the mentality of those who developed the doctrine we have today called the PSA atonement. There are many aspects and theories of the atonement that contain truth, and no one theory is 100% correct. There are many different views and aspects to the atonement within orthodoxy. The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John. Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin. Jesus said: “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The reason my Father loves Me is that I lay down My life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord” (John 10:11; 17-18). Or again, while speaking to the multitudes, Jesus declared: “Whatever the Father does the Son also does” (John 5:19). And Jesus said: “Now my heart is troubled. ‘Father, save me from this hour?’ No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!” (John 12:27-28) The clear picture that emerges from Scripture is that Jesus was not the unfortunate victim of the angry Father. Rather, the Father and the Son were working in concert through the cross to pay for the sins of humanity and make atonement. There is no division of will between the Father and the Son.The viewpoint in this paper brings out the fact that Jesus’ atonement was done in love which provided covering and forgiveness of sins. And this view harmonizes with God’s wrath that is still yet to come and was not poured out on Jesus on the cross. Our loving God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). Our loving Father took pleasure to bruise His Son to reconcile us to God as an offering for our sins. (Isaiah 53:10).
It is by faith in the Son through the message of the gospel that saves and unbelief which condemns. The gospel is for all mankind, all the world, for everyone. God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4). God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers (1 Timothy. 4:10), For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all (Romans 11:32). The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). God sent His Son into the world to take away the sin of the world (John 1:29) and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2). and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again (2 Corinthians 5:15). But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Christ is a Divine Person. natures do not die, people die. You misunderstand the Trinity and the 2 natures in Christ. That is your error in this discussion.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
all death is for the believer is an absence from the body and presence with the Lord. So His death did not cause any separation with the Father. I just answered in great detail this morning in this thread your misunderstanding of the Trinity and being forsaken. You can read the biblical answer I provided or ignore it that is on you, not me.The point is some say He can die and not "break" the Trinity but He can't be forsaken.
