Transmitting The Fallen Nature

[praise_yeshua]

Anti trinitarian .

They are making Christ like themselves...... They were "cut off" so Christ must be "cut off".

Never mind the Scriptures.....

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Love Bestowed..... Not love required. Not love demanded. Not love to balance "justice".

 

[civic]

They are making Christ like themselves...... They were "cut off" so Christ must be "cut off".

Never mind the Scriptures.....

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Love Bestowed..... Not love required. Not love demanded. Not love to balance "justice".

Ditto

 

[sawdust]

They are making Christ like themselves..

??? But He was like us in every way except without sin.

Hebrews 2:17
Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

 

[praise_yeshua]

??? But He was like us in every way except without sin.

Hebrews 2:17
Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

You recognized how He was different in what you stated. Without sin.....

It is a general statement. A better translation is

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

He never personally knew what it was to fail like we do. He never FAILED......Never. He was never a failure. He never lied. He never was anything different in Character than DIVINE.

Which where we get into the complicated doctrine of the "Divine Person" of Jesus Christ.

 

[GeneZ]

There was no spiritual death with Christ that’s heresy

Says who?
You got to do much better than that.

There is one kind of spiritual death for man.

There was a unique form of spiritual death for sinless Jesus.

Don't confuse one for the other......

 

[GeneZ]

They are making Christ like themselves?

They were "cut off" so Christ must be "cut off"?

Not so.

Man was cut off for having been born with a fallen nature that produces sins.
Mankind was cut off for the sin of Adam, not for their personal sins.
Adam was cut off for One personal sin.... Which was passed down to all men.

Jesus was not cut off for the same reason as man was cut off.

God gathered our personal sins ....
And did like a priest did with a man's sins,,,
He transferred them up the body of Jesus.

Then the lamb was slain!
That lamb never became a sinner.
The lamb simply bore the punishment for another's sins.

Likewise.. Jesus never took on a sin nature..
So we are not making Jesus like ourselves.

Just the same.

Jesus took on the detrimental effect that sin causes in relation to fellowship with God.

Unless you can think with the details.
And, stop jumping back and taking leaps away from what was said?
One will keep failing to get it, and will distort what was said to justify their rejection.
Only to be denied access to gaining the understanding needed. which is to be given by grace.


...........

 

[GeneZ]

Anti trinitarian .

Is the Holy Spirit still God when you quench Him?
Yes!

While Jesus bore our sins?
His Deity was grieved. And, REMAINED being God!

 

[GeneZ]

No He was 100%, fully God at all times. His Deity remained just the same as it was before and after the Incarnation. Scripture declares Jesus Christ is the same ( changeless, immutable ) yesterday, today and forever. Hebrews 13:8.

hope this helps !!!

He remains fully God and fully man in union....

How He as the hypostatic union is manifested does not have to remain the same.


Hebrews 1:1-4


In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and
through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact
representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided
purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as
much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

If how you took it? Were to be an absolute in the way you presented Jesus to never change?
This verse could not be written as it has been,.


So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs."

Became? I thought you said He was always being the same. If so? It would have to read?

He was always much superior to the angels as the name he did not have to inherit and always has been superior to theirs."


His union of Deity and Humanity has always been the same.
How that union is manifested can change according to what God's plan calls for.

Here is where he "became." Not, always was that way...

Philippians 2:6-8


Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

 

[sawdust]

You recognized how He was different in what you stated. Without sin.....

It is a general statement. A better translation is

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

He never personally knew what it was to fail like we do. He never FAILED......Never. He was never a failure. He never lied. He never was anything different in Character than DIVINE.

Which where we get into the complicated doctrine of the "Divine Person" of Jesus Christ.

So do you think when Jesus screamed out "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" He didn't know what He was talking about? He was mistaken? He who only ever did what He saw the Father doing and only ever said what He heard from the Father, suddenly didn't have a clue the Father hadn't really forsaken Him?

Or maybe you'll give me the standard answer and Jesus was just quoting Psalm 22. Hell of a time to be quoting poetry don't you think?

 

[GeneZ]

So do you think when Jesus screamed out "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" He didn't know what He was talking about? He was mistaken? He who only ever did what He saw the Father doing and only ever said what He heard from the Father, suddenly didn't have a clue the Father hadn't really forsaken Him?

Or maybe you'll give me the standard answer and Jesus was just quoting Psalm 22. Hell of a time to be quoting poetry don't you think?

I believe you are missing what he is getting at... Which is a total misunderstanding of what you have been saying.
Just the same, looks like he is claiming that you are saying Jesus failed and sinned. That's how he's coming across.

He is dead wrong if that is what he intended. But he is setting you up to argue with you without you realizing
what he is arguing against .

 

[GeneZ]

No He was 100%, fully God at all times. His Deity remained just the same as it was before and after the Incarnation. Scripture declares Jesus Christ is the same ( changeless, immutable ) yesterday, today and forever. Hebrews 13:8.

hope this helps !!!

Tell me this please..

Was Jesus not manifested as a pillar of fire and pillar of smoke as he led the Israelites in the wilderness?

By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way ​

and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night." Exodus 13:21​

He never changed being God and Soul in union!
But the manifestation of His unchangeable self can CHANGE!

Was Jesus a pillar of fire and smoke when he walked the earth as a man to go to the Cross? No!
Is he the same today as he was yesterday? YES!

If the Lord wanted His humanity to stop functioning in the enabling powers that His Deity always gave him?
Who are you to say He can not do that?

Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be held onto,​

( eagerly grasped or retained = He let go of being as God in his powers and abilities!)​

but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. ​

And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, ​

even death on a cross. ​

Philippians 2:6-8

 

[civic]

Tell me this please..

Was Jesus not manifested as a pillar of fire and pillar of smoke as he led the Israelites in the wilderness?

By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way ​

and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night." Exodus 13:21​

He never changed being God and Soul in union!
But the manifestation of His unchangeable self can CHANGE!

Was Jesus a pillar of fire and smoke when he walked the earth as a man to go to the Cross? No!
Is he the same today as he was yesterday? YES!

If the Lord wanted His humanity to stop functioning in the enabling powers that His Deity always gave him?
Who are you to say He can not do that?

​

​

Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be held onto,​

( eagerly grasped or retained = He let go of being as God in his powers and abilities!)​

but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. ​

And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, ​

even death on a cross. ​

Philippians 2:6-8

The Son became human at the Incarnation- Are you saying He was human before His birth as a man ?

 

[GeneZ]

The Son became human at the Incarnation- Are you saying He was human before His birth as a man ?

I do not know what your concept of "human" is.

He was always being Deity and Soul in union.

He was not always walking in the weakness as in the Incarnation of limiting His abilities to become as a Man.
To become as a Man He agreed to keep the enabling abilities of His own Deity in "neutral" (Philippians 2:6-8)
for as long as it took to get him to the cross!

He remained having His Deity , but being put on hold.
That is why Satan tempted starving Jesus to turn the stones into bread.
So that Jesus would cease operating as a man. Tempting Jesus to take back up using His Deity!
If Jesus did that? He could no longer qualify to die as a man.
Not qualified to die in our place as a man for all mankind.


The incarnation was only providing a human body for His already existing Soul.
For He was always being Deity and Soul in union! It is so declared in the Torah!

​

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. ​

Moreover, I will make my dwelling among you, and my soul will not ​

reject you.'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall ​

be My people." Lev 26:10-12​

​

​

​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, ​

so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16​

​

​

​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone​

loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​

Keep in mind.

Jesus said that God is spirit! Not soul! God is not soul! (john 4:23-24)

Consisting of a union of TWO Natures before the Incarnation was the Lord God of Israel!


You need all wheel drive for this one....

 

[Complete]

Subject Heading:- Transmitting The Fallen Nature

Yes but how does it pass? That was the question I constantly asked the Church. How does Adam eating a piece of fruit cause me to die many, many millennia later? There is only one logical way, for there is only one thing our parents can pass on.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

See Romans 5:6-10 &12-21.

Hello @sawdust,

Your question is a timeless one, so much so that Paul addressed it in Romans chapter 5, didn't he?
Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In doing so he exchanged his state of innocence for one of responsibility and therefore accountability, and so death entered. (This is my own reasoning, and therefore open to question), but Paul's words are inspired by God, and therefore are trustworthy and true:-

'Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man,
.. and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
.... for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given,
...... but sin is not counted where there is no law.
........ Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses,
.......... even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam,
............ who was a type of the One Who was to come.
But the free gift is not like the trespass.
.. For if many died through one man's trespass,
.... much more have the grace of God
...... and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ
........ abounded for many.
And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin.
.. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation,
.... but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
...... For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man,
........ much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness
.......... reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men,
.. so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
.... For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners,
...... so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
........ Now the law came in to increase the trespass,
.......... but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
............ so that, as sin reigned in death,
.............. grace also might reign through righteousness
................ leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.'
(Rom 5:12-21 ESV)

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[synergy]

I do not know what your concept of "human" is.

He was always being Deity and Soul in union.

He was not always walking in the weakness as in the Incarnation of limiting His abilities to become as a Man.
To become as a Man He agreed to keep the enabling abilities of His own Deity in "neutral" (Philippians 2:6-8)
for as long as it took to get him to the cross!

He remained having His Deity , but being put on hold.
That is why Satan tempted starving Jesus to turn the stones into bread.
So that Jesus would cease operating as a man. Tempting Jesus to take back up using His Deity!
If Jesus did that? He could no longer qualify to die as a man.
Not qualified to die in our place as a man for all mankind.


The incarnation was only providing a human body for His already existing Soul.
For He was always being Deity and Soul in union! It is so declared in the Torah!

​

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. ​

Moreover, I will make my dwelling among you, and my soul will not ​

reject you.'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall ​

be My people." Lev 26:10-12​

​

​

​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, ​

so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16​

​

​

​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone​

loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​

Keep in mind.

Jesus said that God is spirit! Not soul! God is not soul! (john 4:23-24)

Consisting of a union of TWO Natures before the Incarnation was the Lord God of Israel!


You need all wheel drive for this one....

Those are examples of anthropomorphisms. For example, God is oftentimes referred to as having a hand or a face. This is applying human qualities to God in a figure of speech known as anthropomorphism.

 

[Complete]

Subject Heading:- Transmitting The Fallen Nature

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
For one will scarcely die for a righteous person -
though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die -
but God shows His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by His blood,
much more shall we be saved by Him from the wrath of God.
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son,
much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by His life.
More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
through Whom we have now received reconciliation.'
(Rom 5:6 ESV)

Hello @Olde Tymer,

The potential to sin was there in Adam, it was revealed by the Divine giving of a law, and the breaking of that law by Adam
He was untried, and in a state of innocence, until sin entered and death by sin. For sin brings consequence, God's righteousness requiring justice. Adam chose to disobey God knowingly, though aware of the consequence. It was only the death of the lamb of God, slain before the foundation of the world, in anticipation, which prevented it being carried out at the time. Sin entered and death by sin. The potential to sin is within us all, it has no need of transmission, it is part of each one of us, and has been since creation. (again my reasoning, therefore open to question)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[TedT]

There is no power that can transfer or transmit the sinfulness of one person to another person without his acquiescence...

Sinfulness is transferred by the sinner tempting the innocent to follow him rather than GOD...and the ingenuous innocent person accepting his arguments as a better definition of reality than GOD's for his own happiness.

No one is guilty of the sin of another by any means without a free will choice to accept the sinful thing as their own.

 

[GeneZ]

Those are examples of anthropomorphisms. For example, God is oftentimes referred to as having a hand or a face. This is applying human qualities to God in a figure of speech known as anthropomorphism.

Yes... It can be seen as an anthropomorphism...
That has been the go-to answer when the inconsistency was seen.

That is.. Until it was finally understood.

How could the Lord God (who Himself proclaims having a soul) make himself as a man if he had no soul to begin with?

grace and peace ................

 

[synergy]

Yes... It can be seen as an anthropomorphism...

Ok.

Until its finally understood.

Understood as what? As anthropomorphism?

 

[GeneZ]

There is no power that can transfer or transmit the sinfulness of one person to another person without his acquiescence...

Sinfulness is transferred by the sinner tempting the innocent to follow him rather than GOD...and the ingenuous innocent person accepting his arguments as a better definition of reality than GOD's for his own happiness.

No one is guilty of the sin of another by any means without a free will choice to accept the sinful thing as their own.

One can acquire the same allergies, or medical condition of a parent genetically.
Happens all the time!

Likewise.. The sin nature/flesh is the universal genetic defect we all inherited from Adam.
The flesh drives our soul with impulses that would lead us into unrighteous actions and desires.

Jesus was born without that defect, the one we all inherit from Adam.

And, that is why Jesus could not have a human father!
For the Bible tells us its the male that transmits that defect that resulted from Adam's sin.

Therefore, by God's design the woman does not transmit this defect from her ovum.

Ever wonder why Genesis 3:15, proclaims that the Messiah would be from the "seed of the woman?"
And, not the seed of the man? The woman's ovum does not carry the defect of Adam!

Another thing to consider...
Hebrew thinking in genealogies never thought in terms other than the 'seed of the father.'
To say, "seed of the woman?" Was a foreign concept to Hebrew thinking.
Where did Moses get it from? God!

​

Colossians 2:2-3​

​

My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, ​

so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, ​

in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, ​

in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.​

Treasures are hidden in the Word of God! (John 1:1)

Time to think and meditate. .... and be blessed!

Wishing you a Merry Christmas!