Transmitting The Fallen Nature

[GeneZ]

Interestingly-

but a body hast thou prepared me] This is the rendering of the LXX. In the Hebrew it is “But ears hast thou digged for me.”

The text of the Hebrew does not admit of easy alteration, so that either (1) the reading of the Greek text in the LXX. must be a clerical error, e.g. ΚΑΤΗΡΤΙΣΑΣΩΜΑ for ΚΑΤΗΡΤΙΣΑΣΩΤΙΑ, or (2) the LXX. rendering must be a sort of Targum or explanation. They regarded “a body didst Thou prepare” as equivalent to “Ears didst thou dig.”

The explanation is usually found in the Hebrew custom of boring a slave’s ear if he preferred to remain in servitude (Exo_21:6; Deu_15:17), so that the “bored ear” was a symbol of willing obedience.

But the Hebrew verb means “to dig” rather than “to bore,” and the true explanation seems to be “thou hast caused me to hear and obey.” So in Isa_48:8 we have “thine ear was not opened,” and in Isa_50:5, “God hath opened my ear and I was not rebellious.”

Thus in the two first clauses of each parallelism in the four lines we have the sacrifices which God does not desire; and in the second clause the obedience for which He does care. “The prepared body” is “the form of a servant,” which Christ took upon Him in order to “open His ears” to the voice of God (Php_2:7). See Rev_18:13, where “bodies” means “slaves.” St Paul says, “Ye are become dead to the law by the body of Christ” (Rom_7:4).

Johann.

Nothing like using the esoteric to squash what we need to know.

Who Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, so that, having been dead to sins,
we might live to righteousness. "By whose scourge marks you have been healed." 1 Pet 2:24

Read the next verse after Hebrews 10:5 and the context throws that esoteric rendering out the window.


Hebrews 10:5-6


Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.

All the burnt offerings and sin offerings of animals required a body.
His body was to be the fulfillment of the symbolic meaning of the animal sacrifices.

 

[GeneZ]

Interestingly-

but a body hast thou prepared me] This is the rendering of the LXX. In the Hebrew it is “But ears hast thou digged for me.”

The text of the Hebrew does not admit of easy alteration, so that either (1) the reading of the Greek text in the LXX. must be a clerical error, e.g. ΚΑΤΗΡΤΙΣΑΣΩΜΑ for ΚΑΤΗΡΤΙΣΑΣΩΤΙΑ, or (2) the LXX. rendering must be a sort of Targum or explanation. They regarded “a body didst Thou prepare” as equivalent to “Ears didst thou dig.”

The explanation is usually found in the Hebrew custom of boring a slave’s ear if he preferred to remain in servitude (Exo_21:6; Deu_15:17), so that the “bored ear” was a symbol of willing obedience.

But the Hebrew verb means “to dig” rather than “to bore,” and the true explanation seems to be “thou hast caused me to hear and obey.” So in Isa_48:8 we have “thine ear was not opened,” and in Isa_50:5, “God hath opened my ear and I was not rebellious.”

Thus in the two first clauses of each parallelism in the four lines we have the sacrifices which God does not desire; and in the second clause the obedience for which He does care. “The prepared body” is “the form of a servant,” which Christ took upon Him in order to “open His ears” to the voice of God (Php_2:7). See Rev_18:13, where “bodies” means “slaves.” St Paul says, “Ye are become dead to the law by the body of Christ” (Rom_7:4).

Johann.

My pastor exegeted as follows...

5~~Therefore when He {Christ} entered into the world,
He said {the baby, from His deity not His humanity - in the cradle -Psalm 40:6-8},
"The act of giving {animal} sacrifices and {food} offerings . . .
You, Oh God, do not desire/'make a command decision requiring' . . .
but You {Father} have prepared/equipped for Me a human body."

{Note: This is not an exact quote from Psalm 40:6-8. Some things are changed. Others are left out when pertinent.
In Psalms 40:6, Jesus said 'You have pierced my ears'. This meant to voluntarily become a slave of the Father. (A person wanting to be a slave of someone would have the master, if he agreed, pierce his ear to the door of his house). 'You have prepared a body for me' means the same thing. That is how Jesus voluntarily became subordinate to the Plan of God the father . . . by taking human form.}

I think its somewhat idiomatic which causes the confusion..

 

[Johann]

My pastor exegeted as follows...

5~~Therefore when He {Christ} entered into the world,
He said {the baby, from His deity not His humanity - in the cradle -Psalm 40:6-8},
"The act of giving {animal} sacrifices and {food} offerings . . .
You, Oh God, do not desire/'make a command decision requiring' . . .
but You {Father} have prepared/equipped for Me a human body."

{Note: This is not an exact quote from Psalm 40:6-8. Some things are changed. Others are left out when pertinent.
In Psalms 40:6, Jesus said 'You have pierced my ears'. This meant to voluntarily become a slave of the Father. (A person wanting to be a slave of someone would have the master, if he agreed, pierce his ear to the door of his house). 'You have prepared a body for me' means the same thing. That is how Jesus voluntarily became subordinate to the Plan of God the father . . . by taking human form.}

I think its somewhat idiomatic which causes the confusion..

In Psalms 40:6, Jesus said 'You have pierced my ears'. This meant to voluntarily become a slave of the Father. (A person wanting to be a slave of someone would have the master, if he agreed, pierce his ear to the door of his house). 'You have prepared a body for me' means the same thing. That is how Jesus voluntarily became subordinate to the Plan of God the father . . . by taking human form.}

@GeneZ I said "interestingly"--do you now think I said Jesus was an "ear?"

 

[GeneZ]

@GeneZ I said "interestingly"--do you now think I said Jesus was an "ear?"

To be honest... when you said it?

At first? I did not have ears to hear....

 

[GeneZ]

@GeneZ I said "interestingly"--do you now think I said Jesus was an "ear?"

Not really... But it taught me a lesson on why some things I say others take the wrong way when they do not understand.

 

[Johann]

Not really... But it taught me a lesson on why some things I say others take the wrong way when they do not understand.

Shalom

 

[praise_yeshua]

@GeneZ I said "interestingly"--do you now think I said Jesus was an "ear?"

I would like to know why you are so trusting of those that reject Messiah? They are not like Abraham.

 

[GeneZ]

I would like to know why you are so trusting of those that reject Messiah? They are not like Abraham.

What did you mean by that?

 

[praise_yeshua]

What did you mean by that?

There is this concept in many Christian positions that those who rejected Messiah have superior knowledge of God because of their heritage in Abraham. Often times, they continued to fight against the Gospel long after the Resurrection. Some would rather trust their work in the Mosretic Text than the words written by faithful Jews that followed Christ.

 

[civic]

I would like to know why you are so trusting of those that reject Messiah? They are not like Abraham.

Its like trusting atheists with creation.

 

[civic]

There is this concept in many Christian positions that those who rejected Messiah have superior knowledge of God because of their heritage in Abraham. Often times, they continued to fight against the Gospel long after the Resurrection. Some would rather trust their work in the Mosretic Text than the words written by faithful Jews that followed Christ.

That sounds much like blind leading the blind to a destination.

 

[GeneZ]

I would like to know why you are so trusting of those that reject Messiah? They are not like Abraham.

How is he trusting those who reject Messiah? That was what I wanted you to clarify.
Let me in on it, too.

 

[praise_yeshua]

How is he trusting those who reject Messiah? That was what I wanted you to clarify.
Let me in on it, too.

Those who edited the Hebrew OT, Talmud and.Midrash in the centuries post Resurrection. Those who made the truth of God void by their traditions.

 

[GeneZ]

Those who edited the Hebrew OT, Talmud and.Midrash in the centuries post Resurrection. Those who made the truth of God void by their traditions.

I grew up in a Jewish home.

My sister decided to do something one afternoon when we had relatives over for the day. There were many times when we had company with everyone was sitting around the kitchen table, talking, joking, and playing cards. I believe that day my parents were standing in the kitchen nesr the table enjoying everyone's conversation...

Then, my sister walked into the kitchen carrying a book.

She announced that she wanted to read something for everyone..
My aunt Judy was there. She asked my sister for what it was she wanted to read, and to let her do it...
Aunt Judy was a professional woman. Articulate and intelligent.

So, my sister handed aunt Judy the book and pointed to where she should start.

There was silence in the room.. All attention was on aunt Judy as she began reading.
When finished, aunt Judy looked up at my sister, and in front of everyone in the room, she told my sister the follow...

"This is a Catholic Bible. What I read is about Jesus. We are Jewish, and we do not believe in Jesus."

My sister's response?

"Aunt Judy! What you just read is Isaiah 53. The Bible you read from? It was given to Gene (me) for his bar mitzvah!"

My sister said you could hear a pin drop.

My Jewish bible was translated from the Masoretic text.


..............

 

[praise_yeshua]

I grew up in a Jewish home.

My sister decided to do something one afternoon when we had relatives over for the day. There were many times when we had company with everyone was sitting around the kitchen table, talking, joking, and playing cards. I believe that day my parents were standing in the kitchen nesr the table enjoying everyone's conversation...

Then, my sister walked into the kitchen carrying a book.

She announced that she wanted to read something for everyone..
My aunt Judy was there. She asked my sister for what it was she wanted to read, and to let her do it...
Aunt Judy was a professional woman. Articulate and intelligent.

So, my sister handed aunt Judy the book and pointed to where she should start.

There was silence in the room.. All attention was on aunt Judy as she began reading.
When finished, aunt Judy looked up at my sister, and in front of everyone in the room, she told my sister the follow...

"This is a Catholic Bible. What I read is about Jesus. We are Jewish, and we do not believe in Jesus."

My sister's response?

"Aunt Judy! What you just read is Isaiah 53. The Bible you read from? It was given to Gene (me) for his bar mitzvah!"

My sister said you could hear a pin drop.

My Jewish bible was translated from the Masoretic text.


..............

Okay. We GROW. We rightfully change as we learn.

Let me add to what you know. The Catholic church followed the Greek OT well into the 3rd century. There was no single collection of Hebrew text culminating in what is considered a "Hebrew OT/Bible" until centuries later. The MT is from the 10th century.

The earlier Jews followed the Greek OT. Christianity would have never became a Global religion without the Greek OT. It is the Greek OT that enabled the early Christian church to spread the Gospel throughout the known world.

Christianity would have never became a Global religion without the Greek OT. This was true until Jerome (along with others) created the Vulgate. The Vulgate then "ruled" ... "bible collections" for well over a thousand years.

I have never said that the MT doesn't have enough information to teach others. What I am saying that that your "Jewish Bible" is hindering modern Jews and Gentiles on the subject of the Atonement. (and other subjects).

I commend your faith... but faith increases as we learn the Truth. Truth does not have its complete work in us today. The Truth makes us free. It is a continuing process.

There is a tendency in some teachings of the Atonement to foster a sense of entitlement. Calvinism is a perfect example of this.

 

[GeneZ]

Okay. We GROW. We rightfully change as we learn.

Let me add to what you know. The Catholic church followed the Greek OT well into the 3rd century. There was no single collection of Hebrew text culminating in what is considered a "Hebrew OT/Bible" until centuries later. The MT is from the 10th century.

The earlier Jews followed the Greek OT. Christianity would have never became a Global religion without the Greek OT. It is the Greek OT that enabled the early Christian church to spread the Gospel through the known world.

Christianity would have never became a Global religion without the Greek OT. This was true until Jerome (along with others) created the Vulgate. The Vulgate then "ruled" ... "bible collections" for well over a thousand years.

I have never said that the MT doesn't have enough information to teach others. What I am saying that that your "Jewish Bible" is hindering modern Jews and Gentiles on the subject of the Atonement. (and other subjects).

I commend your faith... but faith increases as we learn the Truth. Truth does not have its complete work in us today. The Truth makes us free. It is a continuing process.

There is a tendency in some teachings of the Atonement to foster a sense of entitlement. Calvinism is a perfect example of this.

You can't even follow what you have.
You are arguing over things that can not convey the truth you need to think with, even if your chosen translation were allegedly perfect.

You need a good pastor teacher.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You can't even follow what you have.
You are arguing over things that can not convey the truth you need to think with, even if your chosen translation were allegedly perfect.

You need a good pastor teacher.

By all means. Provide evidence of my mistakes.

I don't believe that authority has been passed from the earlier church to anyone today. I can study the Scriptures and teachings of the apostles myself. As far as need..... We all NEED each other. The body fits together. I wish "pastors" would learn that they're not an authoritative source for anything. All the eyes and ears of the "Body" have long been gone from this earth.

There is no reason for you to reject me just because I've disagreed with you. Evidence is evidence. I will accept your evidence if it is true. Just know, this isn't the first time I've debated these subject. I have debated them for decades. Over and over again. I know your position because you have received it from someone else. I've made the effort to know the evidence myself.

Invite your pastor here if you like. We can discuss. Can your pastor can tell me what YOU believe.

I don't let other men set my theology for me.....After all, they will not answer for me when I face God.

 

[GeneZ]

By all means. Provide evidence of my mistakes.

I don't believe that authority has been passed from the earlier church to anyone today. I can study the Scriptures and teachings of the apostles myself. As far as need..... We all NEED each other. The body fits together. I wish "pastors" would learn that they're not an authoritative source for anything. All the eyes and ears of the "Body" have long been gone from this earth.

There is no reason for you to reject me just because I've disagreed with you. Evidence is evidence. I will accept your evidence if it is true. Just know, this isn't the first time I've debated these subject. I have debated them for decades. Over and over again. I know your position because you have received it from someone else. I've made the effort to know the evidence myself.

Invite your pastor here if you like. We can discuss. Can your pastor can tell me what YOU believe.

I don't let other men set my theology for me.....After all, they will not answer for me when I face God.

Not mistakes. wasting your time over things that do not provide what is needed, even if you won the argument.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Not mistakes. wasting your time over things that do not provide what is needed, even if you won the argument.

Well. Has this been a waste of your time?

Knowing the truth shouldn't be considered a waste of time.

 

[GeneZ]

Well. Has this been a waste of your time?

Knowing the truth shouldn't be considered a waste of time.

You are not getting the truth. You are arguing over distractions away from the truth as a substitute for thinking you have truth.
Winning an argument does not mean you have truth. Only temporal truth at best.

You need a good pastor teacher. We all do.