Transmitting The Fallen Nature

[civic]

There is no righteousness to be found in killing your own offspring because they disobeyed you. It is unbelief that damns.

I bet your children cursed you. Did you kill them?

I don't claim any righteousness. You have a poor view of what righteousness is.

It has long amazed me how man can love and forgive their own children regardless of their actions or "saying they're sorry".... and it is impossible for God to do the same.

Do you remember the words of Christ while He was dying.... do you see the reason for His forgiveness?

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO....... There is even innocence in unbelief.

1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

You have a poor view of the Character of God. He is not challenged by sin.

It makes God more evil than man. Yikes
What an assault on Gods goodness, mercy, love, grace, forgiveness etc

 

[praise_yeshua]

It makes God more evil than man. Yikes

Exactly.

 

[praise_yeshua]

"Hypostatic Union" would have been what anyone coming to this forum have found helpful in following your post.

Try Googling "HU," and see how it adds even more to the confusion.

I thought I used the phrase earlier. Maybe I didn't. My mistake.

 

[GeneZ]

Here is something I developed on CARM over a decade ago from debating on the Trinity forum.



Hypostatic Union

1. Jesus is a person. (1 Tim 2:5)

2. Jesus, the Person, has two natures- Divine and human (John 1:1, 14, 1 Timothy 3:16): Divine and human. This is the Hypostatic Union.( Col 2:9, Heb 1:3,2:16)

3. The Communicatio Idiomatum (Communication of the Properties) states that the attributes of His Divine nature and human nature are both ascribed to the one Person of Jesus. So Jesus can exhibit attributes of Divinity (Omnipresence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, . John 2:23, 3:13, 8:58, He was prayed to in Acts 7:59, John 14:13, He was is worshiped Matt 2:2:11, Rev 5:13-14) and at the same time exhibit attributes of His humanity( He was tempted, ate, prayed,wept, grew in wisdom and stature,was anointed,was baptized, the Father was greater, didn’t know the day or the hour of His Return, He cried My God my God why has Thou forsaken Me, He died etc.). The communicatio idiomatum does not mean that any part of the Divine nature was communicated to the human nature.


4. The Man(anthropos) Jesus is what we perceive (if we were there 2000 years ago in Israel) and through the Man we encounter the Divine nature (Jesus knowing all things, is on earth while in heaven, answers prayer, forgiving sins, etc.).

5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5) Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7)

6. The Divine Nature is within the Trinity.(Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

7. Since the Person of Jesus claims the attributes of Divinity(John 3:13,8:58,Matthew 9:2,12:8), then the Person of Jesus is a member of the Trinity.( John 14-16, Math 28:19)

Anything said of either of Christ's two natures applies to the one Person of Christ, so that is how it is said that Christ died on the cross. The term "hypostatic union" refers to the two natures united in the one Person, so anything said of those two natures in the one Person applies to the whole Person. So we see that the Person of Christ is both God and man. The phrase hypostatic union was adopted by the general council at Chalcedon 451 AD. That council declared that the union of two natures is real (against Arius), not a mere indwelling of God in a man (against Nestorius), with a rational soul (against Apollinaris), and that in Christ’s Divine nature remains unchanged (against Eutyches).



We need to look to the Monothelite Controversy which had to deal with whether there was one or two wills/minds in the person of Christ. The outcome was that there were two; one human and one divine with the human subjected to the divine. The eternal Son of God did not assume a part of a human nature without a mind, without a will, without human activity, but He assumed all the things that were planted in our nature by God.

Now then, to act (or in this case, speak) is the work of a person, but the form or nature is the cause of this action; for each person acts in accord with the form or nature which it has. A difference in causes (natures) produces a difference in effects (actions). Therefore, where there are different natures, there are also different activities. So in the one Person of Christ there are two natural actions, the divine and the human, each of which has its own essential attributes, functions, and actions. Jesus was thirty years old according to His human nature (Luke 3:23); according to His divine nature He could say: "Before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58). The question is did both natures know this and communicate it to the Person. The answer is yes because the divine nature with its corresponding divine will willed the human nature to respond in such a fashion in keeping with Christ's office and ministry. In the text regarding Mark 13:32, we have a slightly different situation here. Christ is acting (speaking) from His human nature, but, this time, the divine will does not allow the human will access to this knowledge. For this information is not to be published on earth. Therefore, as man, Christ cannot answer the question.

In the works pertaining to the office of Christ as Prophet, Priest, and King both natures act in conjunction with each other, each nature doing what is peculiar to the same.

Did you know that two Natures of Jesus existed before the Incarnation? Soul and Deity in Union.

The Incarnation was the inclusion of the human body needed to fulfill the Cross.

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: ​

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body ​

you prepared for me." Heb 10:5​

A body "prepared for me."

He was already existing, awaiting the body God would prepare for Him.
For he "came into the world." He did not begin in the world.

He was already being the union of soul and Deity preceding the Incarnation in heaven.


I can show you that using the OT if you are interested.....


grace and peace ..............

 

[GeneZ]

I thought I used the phrase earlier. Maybe I didn't. My mistake.

Are you really Civic?

 

[civic]

Did you know that two Natures of Jesus existed before the Incarnation? Soul and Deity in Union.

The Incarnation was the inclusion of the human body needed to fulfill the Cross.

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: ​

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body ​

you prepared for me." Heb 10:5​

A body "prepared for me."

He was already existing, awaiting the body God would prepare for Him.
For he "came into the world." He did not begin in the world.

He was already being the union of soul and Deity preceding the Incarnation in heaven.


I can show you that using the OT if you are interested.....


grace and peace ..............

There was no humanity with the Son prior to being conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary’s womb.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Did you know that two Natures of Jesus existed before the Incarnation? Soul and Deity in Union.

The Incarnation was the inclusion of the human body needed to fulfill the Cross.

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: ​

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body ​

you prepared for me." Heb 10:5​

A body "prepared for me."

He was already existing, awaiting the body God would prepare for Him.
For he "came into the world." He did not begin in the world.

He was already being the union of soul and Deity preceding the Incarnation in heaven.


I can show you that using the OT if you are interested.....


grace and peace ..............

No you can't.

So Christ wasn't actually "born"?

 

[civic]

I thought I used the phrase earlier. Maybe I didn't. My mistake.

Same here I thought it was used in this thread.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Are you really Civic?

No. We have known each other and discussed theology for many years. We don't agree on everything and we don't need to.

There is this misconception in Christianity that everyone must agree. They don't. The unity of the faith will take the Divine action of God.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[GeneZ]

It makes God more evil than man. Yikes
What an assault on Gods goodness, mercy, love, grace, forgiveness etc

It is an assault.

That is why what was said I said is wrong.

God has commanded the killing of a father and mother's own son.


Deuteronomy 21:18-21

If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid."​

Its a shock for some when they find out that God is not sentimental like some parents will be with His own children.


1 Corinthians 11:29-32

For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we were
more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. Nevertheless, when
we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned
with the world."​

Fallen asleep = death. Judged by the Lord.

Sorry... but some think God's Justice is to bring us into a fairy tale existence. That does not mean God is unloving. But, God can not compromise with his Holiness. Yes.... God administers the sin onto death to His own children when they compromise with evil and end up finding themselves entering into the sin onto death.


.
1 John 5:16-17


If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life.
I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should
pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death."


Not wishing to be harsh about this.

But, some are still naïve about the nature of God concerning rebellion by His own children.


grace and truth.............

 

[GeneZ]

No you can't.

So Christ wasn't actually "born"?

He was born as a man in a state Adam was created in... As sinless.


Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!



in Christ.....









Philippians 2:6-8

 

[GeneZ]

There was no humanity with the Son prior to being conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary’s womb.

The body was conceived using the ovum (seed) of Mary, and the needed genetic male chromosomes needed to produce a sinless body...

The soul of Jesus was preexisting in Heaven before any body was provided.

Some OT evidence for the Soul of Jehovah ( two natures in union) found here .....

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new.
Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and my soul will not
reject you.' I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall
be My people." Lev 26:10-12​

​

God is not "soul."​

​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah,
so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16​

​

Jehovah is not "soul."​

​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone
loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​

Jehovah is not "soul."

God is not soul.....
God is "spirit." John 4:23-24.

But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father ​

in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is spirit, and ​

those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”​

​

That took me a while to fully register.
But, that was why Jesus as a man told them that before Abraham was born He Was Being!

 

[praise_yeshua]

He was born as a man in a state Adam was created in... As sinless.

I've said multiple times. Christ's humanity was formed from the seed of Mary. Which is a combination of the seed of man and women throughout all history.

The argument you're making is one I've known for a very long time. It is an empty argument lacking evidence.

There is no separation between The father aspects of Adam in humanity and the HU/Incarnation of Jesus Christ. ZERO....... 100 percent God. 100 percent man.

Evidence.

1Co 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

It is why the genealogies of Christ are traced both form the human male perspective and the female perspective. The union of humanity in Adam and Eve becoming "one" in their offspring was FULLY established in Jesus Christ.

It is why Jesus is referenced at the second Adam...

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The Orthodox teaching of the InCarnation of God in Jesus Christ doesn't need your fabrication to establish a Impeccable Savior/Sacrifice.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The body was conceived using the ovum (seed) of Mary, and the needed genetic male chromosomes needed to produce a sinless body...

The soul of Jesus was preexisting in Heaven before any body was provided.

Some OT evidence for the Soul of Jehovah ( two natures in union) found here .....

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new.
Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and my soul will not
reject you.' I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall
be My people." Lev 26:10-12​

​

God is not "soul."​

​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah,
so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16​

​

Jehovah is not "soul."​

​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone
loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​

Jehovah is not "soul."

God is not soul.....
God is "spirit." John 4:23-24.

But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father ​

in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is spirit, and ​

those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”​

​

That took me a while to fully register.
But, that was why Jesus as a man told them that before Abraham was born He Was Being!

You're teaching an incomplete Son in the Holy Trinity.

You're quoting a flawed MT from the 10th century. The Greek OT gets it right.

Psa 11:5 The Lord tries the righteous and the ungodly: and he that loves unrighteousness hates his own soul.

 

[GeneZ]

I've said multiple times. Christ's humanity was formed from the seed of Mary. Which is a combination of the seed of man and women throughout all history.

His humanity is His SOUL. You see a body as humanity? Was Adam's body humanity prior to the Lord breathing the breath of lives into the body's nostrils! NO! It was just a body!

Mary was used of God to provide a BODY.
Not, to provide his humanity, which is His Soul!

LOOK!

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me." Hebrews 10:5​

It says what? When he "came into the world." Meaning?
He was someplace else prior to coming into the world.

The body was to be the tabernacle for His Soul. His soul which was in Heaven prior to the incarnation.



Please.. LOOK! The Lord Jehovah of Israel was a union of Soul and Deity!
Prior to the Incarnation there was no body. Just Deity and Soul in union!

Look again!

​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, ​

so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16


Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, ​

and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5


“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, ​

the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred ​

meeting. Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They are a trouble ​

to Me, I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14
​

That soul of Jehovah entered the sinless body that God provided by means of Mary's ovum! Genesis 3:15!

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me." ​

Prepared what? A body, not yet a living man. Only a body.

God's soul entered the body provided through Mary, like when the Lord breathed into the nostrils of the body of Adam!

Think it over. Don't make a snap decision. This is deep!

grace and peace.....

 

[GeneZ]

You're teaching an incomplete Son in the Holy Trinity.

You're quoting a flawed MT from the 10th century. The Greek OT gets it right.

Psa 11:5 The Lord tries the righteous and the ungodly: and he that loves unrighteousness hates his own soul.

Well, it looks like you and Civic do not understand what I am saying...

 

[Johann]

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me." Hebrews 10:5

Interestingly-

but a body hast thou prepared me] This is the rendering of the LXX. In the Hebrew it is “But ears hast thou digged for me.”

The text of the Hebrew does not admit of easy alteration, so that either (1) the reading of the Greek text in the LXX. must be a clerical error, e.g. ΚΑΤΗΡΤΙΣΑΣΩΜΑ for ΚΑΤΗΡΤΙΣΑΣΩΤΙΑ, or (2) the LXX. rendering must be a sort of Targum or explanation. They regarded “a body didst Thou prepare” as equivalent to “Ears didst thou dig.”

The explanation is usually found in the Hebrew custom of boring a slave’s ear if he preferred to remain in servitude (Exo_21:6; Deu_15:17), so that the “bored ear” was a symbol of willing obedience.

But the Hebrew verb means “to dig” rather than “to bore,” and the true explanation seems to be “thou hast caused me to hear and obey.” So in Isa_48:8 we have “thine ear was not opened,” and in Isa_50:5, “God hath opened my ear and I was not rebellious.”

Thus in the two first clauses of each parallelism in the four lines we have the sacrifices which God does not desire; and in the second clause the obedience for which He does care. “The prepared body” is “the form of a servant,” which Christ took upon Him in order to “open His ears” to the voice of God (Php_2:7). See Rev_18:13, where “bodies” means “slaves.” St Paul says, “Ye are become dead to the law by the body of Christ” (Rom_7:4).

Johann.

 

[praise_yeshua]

His humanity is His SOUL. You see a body as humanity? Was Adam's body humanity prior to the Lord breathing the breath of lives into the body's nostrils! NO! It was just a body!

Mary was used of God to provide a BODY.
Not, to provide his humanity, which is His Soul!

LOOK!

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me." Hebrews 10:5​

It says what? When he "came into the world." Meaning?
He was someplace else prior to coming into the world.

The body was to be the tabernacle for His Soul. His soul which was in Heaven prior to the incarnation.



Please.. LOOK! The Lord Jehovah of Israel was a union of Soul and Deity!
Prior to the Incarnation there was no body. Just Deity and Soul in union!

Look again!

​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, ​

so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16


Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, ​

and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5


“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, ​

the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred ​

meeting. Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They are a trouble ​

to Me, I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14
​

That soul of Jehovah entered the sinless body that God provided by means of Mary's ovum! Genesis 3:15!

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me." ​

Prepared what? A body, not yet a living man. Only a body.

God's soul entered the body provided through Mary, like when the Lord breathed into the nostrils of the body of Adam!

Think it over. Don't make a snap decision. This is deep!

grace and peace.....

Deep? I dealt with your issue. You want to establish the preexistent humanity of Jesus Christ. You're not the first person that has tried to "sell this" to me.

Flesh is flesh. Jesus didn't have a "special flesh"... nor "magic blood"...

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well, it looks like you and Civic do not understand what I am saying...

We do. You have limited knowledge of this subject. I don't say that to be offensive. It is just true.

I started studying the Greek OT a very long time ago.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Interestingly-

but a body hast thou prepared me] This is the rendering of the LXX. In the Hebrew it is “But ears hast thou digged for me.”

The text of the Hebrew does not admit of easy alteration, so that either (1) the reading of the Greek text in the LXX. must be a clerical error, e.g. ΚΑΤΗΡΤΙΣΑΣΩΜΑ for ΚΑΤΗΡΤΙΣΑΣΩΤΙΑ, or (2) the LXX. rendering must be a sort of Targum or explanation. They regarded “a body didst Thou prepare” as equivalent to “Ears didst thou dig.”

The explanation is usually found in the Hebrew custom of boring a slave’s ear if he preferred to remain in servitude (Exo_21:6; Deu_15:17), so that the “bored ear” was a symbol of willing obedience.

But the Hebrew verb means “to dig” rather than “to bore,” and the true explanation seems to be “thou hast caused me to hear and obey.” So in Isa_48:8 we have “thine ear was not opened,” and in Isa_50:5, “God hath opened my ear and I was not rebellious.”

Thus in the two first clauses of each parallelism in the four lines we have the sacrifices which God does not desire; and in the second clause the obedience for which He does care. “The prepared body” is “the form of a servant,” which Christ took upon Him in order to “open His ears” to the voice of God (Php_2:7). See Rev_18:13, where “bodies” means “slaves.” St Paul says, “Ye are become dead to the law by the body of Christ” (Rom_7:4).

Johann.

You should abandon this type of thinking. Have you really studied the willing servant? Did the "Word of God" pierce you ear when God spoke to you? Do you know the sound of your Master's voice? At least the KJV follows some LXX readings in the OT. They have been largely abandoned in other editions.

Those that hated Jesus Christ magically produced the MT in the 10th century. Only a few men had control over what you're using as evidence. There is no reason to trust them solely because they claimed expertise in a language they were far removed from.

I'll be glad to deal with your statement above from the evidence itself.