Total Depravity

[TomL]

The all their have been Justified to life, so its limited, plus how does that verse support that man isnt totally depraved ?. Paul just described the totally depraved plight of man in Chapter 3 Read Rom 3:9-20

And so why do you interpret the phrase "all people" in two different ways?

Romans 5:18 (LEB) — 18 Consequently therefore, as through one trespass came condemnation to all people, so also through one righteous deed came justification of life to all people.

 

[TomL]

All that and man is still totally depraved and dead to God in Salvation concerns.

You simply recited your theology and did not address the biblical data.

Why?

The Calvinist doctrine of total depravity holds that man is unable to believe the gospel and must be regenerated before he can. It makes the gospel of little worth.

However

John 3:14–21 (NASB95) — 14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

Mark 6:12 (LEB) — 12 And they went out and proclaimed that people should repent.


To command men, “Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance” (Lk. 3:8; Matt. 3:8), and to tell them to “repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance” (Acts 26:20), both implies that it is man’s choice, man’s responsibility, and within man’s ability or control to repent and bring forth fruits from that repentance. If it were not, it would make no sense to command them to do so.

The disciples of the Lord “went out, and preached that men should repent” (Mark 6:12). This takes for granted that repentance is a choice, specifically man’s choice, and that man can make that choice. God’s invitation to come is for all men (Matt. 11:28). As the Bible says “Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage” (Matt. 22:9). Jesus also said to the Church, “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15). Why should we preach the gospel to all men, commanding them to repent and believe, unless all men are capable of this? It would be a waste of time and energy to call and command men to do that which they cannot do.

 

[brightfame52]

And so why do you interpret the phrase "all people" in two different ways?

Romans 5:18 (LEB) — 18 Consequently therefore, as through one trespass came condemnation to all people, so also through one righteous deed came justification of life to all people.

The all people there are justified, Justification of life resulted for them, just as in their head adam condemnation resulted on them or where they offered condemnation ?

 

[TomL]

The all people there are justified, Justification of life resulted for them, just as in their head adam condemnation resulted on them or where they offered condemnation ?

You totally missed the point.

All people are mentioned in both halves of the verse.

Romans 5:18 (LEB) — 18 Consequently therefore, as through one trespass came condemnation to all people, so also through one righteous deed came justification of life to all people.

Yet your theology requires you to interpret it differently in each half of the verse.

 

[brightfame52]

You totally missed the point.

All people are mentioned in both halves of the verse.

Romans 5:18 (LEB) — 18 Consequently therefore, as through one trespass came condemnation to all people, so also through one righteous deed came justification of life to all people.

Yet your theology requires you to interpret it differently in each half of the verse.

No you missed the point, the all in Rom 5:18 b have Justification of life, so that tells you its limited.

So then as through one trespass [Adam’s sin] there resulted condemnation for all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. AMP

And besides, the very next verse 19 describes the same people as being only many

19 ;For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So its all of the many in Vs 18

And this has nothing to do with total depravity, see Rom 3:9-20 for that

 

[TomL]

No you missed the point, the all in Rom 5:18 b have Justification of life, so that tells you its limited.

So then as through one trespass [Adam’s sin] there resulted condemnation for all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. AMP

And besides, the very next verse 19 describes the same people as being only many

19 ;For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So its all of the many in Vs 18

And this has nothing to do with total depravity, see Rom 3:9-20 for that

Nope

Romans 5:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The free gift needs to be accepted, and it still comes to all men, not some or many, but a limited number of men.

All men is not some men, nor is it many but not all men.

You have clearly redefined the term to suit your theology.

Regarding Rom 3:9-20, continue reading.

Romans 3:21–26 (LEB) — 21 But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified about by the law and the prophets—22 that is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. For there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God made publicly available as the mercy seat through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness, because of the passing over of previously committed sins, 26 in the forbearance of God, for the demonstration of his righteousness in the present time, so that he should be just and the one who justifies the person by faith in Jesus.

and note justification is through faith in Christ which/whom God made publicly available to all.

 

[brightfame52]

Man by nature can only live one way while dead in sin, Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

And unfortunately there is no freewill escape from this walk in death

Our wills aren't free not to fulfill the desires of the flesh and the mind, and be worthy of nothing but wrath.

 

[Presby02]

And so why do you interpret the phrase "all people" in two different ways?

Romans 5:18 (LEB) — 18 Consequently therefore, as through one trespass came condemnation to all people, so also through one righteous deed came justification of life to all people.

Universalism?

 

[TomL]

Universalism?

Only in the sense that salvation is available for all. All however, will not repent or believe.

 

[brightfame52]

Only in the sense that salvation is available for all. All however, will not repent or believe.

Rom 5:18b says nothing about Justification of life being made available to anyone, its the result of the doing and dying of Christ for His people He represented, just like Rom 5:18 a says nothing about condemnation being made available to anyone, it was the result of the doing of Adam who represented them. You have to keep things equal in the verse

 

[civic]

You totally missed the point.

All people are mentioned in both halves of the verse.

Romans 5:18 (LEB) — 18 Consequently therefore, as through one trespass came condemnation to all people, so also through one righteous deed came justification of life to all people.

Yet your theology requires you to interpret it differently in each half of the verse.

yes he is trying to have his cake and eat it too- the passage opposes his theology and shows the inconsistent approach to the scriptures

 

[brightfame52]

yes he is trying to have his cake and eat it too- the passage opposes his theology and shows the inconsistent approach to the scriptures

Actually both parts of the verse is only about the elect who are Justified Rom 8:29-30,33

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 ;Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The entire Rom 5 is solely about the elect, their experience in their first natural head and then their experience in their Spiritual head Christ.

The vessels of wrath has nothing to do with the narrative my friend So the all men both times in Rom 5:18 is restricted to the elect

 

[praise_yeshua]

Actually both parts of the verse is only about the elect who are Justified Rom 8:29-30,33

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 ;Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The entire Rom 5 is solely about the elect, their experience in their first natural head and then their experience in their Spiritual head Christ.

The vessels of wrath has nothing to do with the narrative my friend So the all men both times in Rom 5:18 is restricted to the elect

So pitiful to see someone like this ignore the preference of Jesus Christ as the elect of God to insert themselves.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Only in the sense that salvation is available for all. All however, will not repent or believe.

Men are judged by Jesus Christ now. The sin of unbelief.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Universalism?

It is always the same with you. It is either Calvinism or Universalism.

I bet you sleep good at night with such meager thoughts.....

 

[brightfame52]

So pitiful to see someone like this ignore the preference of Jesus Christ as the elect of God to insert themselves.

Jesus Christ is the elect of God along with His Body with Him. Thats why their is a elect, their election union with Him, duh

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jesus Christ is the elect of God along with His Body with Him. Thats why their is a elect, their election union with Him, duh

So were you chosen first and then the means of Jesus Christ provided for you?

You should realize by now that you're not prepared for this conversation with me.

 

[brightfame52]

Men are judged by Jesus Christ now. The sin of unbelief.

Not the elect, Christ redeemed them from all iniquity which included unbelief, thats why they believe

 

[brightfame52]

So were you chosen first and then the means of Jesus Christ provided for you?

You should realize by now that you're not prepared for this conversation with me.

lol dont worry about me, be concerned about your relationship with God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Not the elect, Christ redeemed them from all iniquity which included unbelief, thats why they believe

Duh.... Like I don't know YOU believe this.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.