Concupiscence
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
So you’ve been wrong for 30+years?
Doug
Or you have? Did you consider that? We can discuss the details. I love the details. I prefer them.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I'm going to unignore you for now. I'm not going to waste much time on you but I am glad you're responding. I usually don't pay any attention to what you have to say anymore. It is very telling that you have a new "forum friend"... @TibiasDad . Maybe you've been such for some time. I haven't paid attention. People usually "clan up" when you start getting into what matters in theology. False doctrine tends to make strange "bedfellows". I personally wouldn't have placed you as being some champion of Doug's thinking.
I mean you are a Unitarian. I realized a very long time ago that there really very few Trinitarians in this world. Few that understood the context of the Essence and Nature of God to the point of actually being able to properly express it.
I have no fear of any Unitarian. I know all of you think you're undefeatable. Not that I care about actually "defeating" you. I don't. It is not about the "sake of winning an argument" to me. Though many people believe I'm that way. I'm not. We are usually so very far apart in how we view God, that it isn't fruitful. Also, I know that no matter what I say, you'll twist it to the point it really isn't worthy my time to "untie" your comments.
Maybe this time it will be different. I will offer to debate you publically in a live video/audio (your choice) if we get to the "twisting part" that usually becomes your "MO". BTW. That comes from Latin and denotes something sinister. I mean every word of it. I believe you're an enemy of God. I don't mind saying it at all. I will treat you as such.
So....
Do tell. Please state clearly that you believe the knowledge that Jesus Christ possessed in the Incarnation originate in The Father. I don't want you to say anything else than this. Just confirm this and I'll continue. Don't talk around it. Don't form a "rabbit trail" to answer. I'm not trying to limit what you're trying to express but you need to say those words. That is exactly what I see you saying.
@TibiasDad is talking around the inevitable conclusion of what he has said. Words have meaning. They carry and produce a foundation of beliefs that I already know. You haven't said one thing that I don't already know is the inevitable result of Arminianism. I thought TibiasDad actually knew Arminianism. There is more evil that has come out of Arminianism than I can tolerate.
To me, there isn't an Arminian Trinitarian that exists on this planet. You can't believe what Arminianism teaches and be a functioning Trinitarian.
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
The term "meticulous determinism" is self evident. I don't need to quantify it for you.
If you want to know why I said it, then that is a different question. Ask.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I'd like to make an additional statement. Arminianism has largely produced all the evil things that exist in modern Unitarianism.
I'll go further. Arminianism has also produced much of the evils that exist in modern Universalism. I can explain and maybe this needs a dedicated thread. Just want to make my position clear.
I'll go further. Arminianism has also produced much of the evils that exist in modern Universalism. I can explain and maybe this needs a dedicated thread. Just want to make my position clear.
TibiasDad
Active Member
TibiasDad
Active Member
I know what meticulous determinism is, and have never done anything but argue against it.
Your mention of it as being my belief show the fanaticism of your sense of reality. I have never held to determinism, much less meticulous determinism. I am a lifelong Wesleyan/Arminian and a now retired Nazarene pastor. Determinism has never been a part of my theology!
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
That proves your myopic understanding of Arminianism. That is as absurd a statement as I have ever heard from any debator in any forum or thread I’ve ever been a part of.
From Nazarene.org
“As members of the Church Universal, we join with all true believers in proclaiming the Lordship of Jesus Christ and in affirming the historic Trinitarian creeds and beliefs of the Christian faith. We value our Wesleyan-Holiness heritage and believe it to be a way of understanding the faith that is true to Scripture, reason, tradition, and experience. (Emphasis mine)
According to Wikipedia, “ (The Church of the Nazarene) is the largest denomination in the world aligned with the Wesleyan-Holiness movement, with just under 3 million members worldwide.
And the large majority of these are Trinitarian. Get your facts straight!
Doug
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Fair enough. I'm not unreasonable.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I know you believe this brother. However, you're wrong. I know you see a difference between what you believe and meticulous determinism. However, there is no meaningful difference between them.
Please pay attention to my use of the phrase "meaningful difference". In debate, you should know what this means. It is relative to how people recognize change. "A duck by any other name is still a duck". ( A call back to our childhood).
My extended family includes meaningful relationships with the "Nazarene". I remember your history in Arminianism. It is why I say the things I say to you. I try to chose my words wisely. I do try to provoke you. I stir up that "Arminian" in you. It is needful for you to deal with "him".
Lets confirm.....
Do you believe that everything already exists meticulously in the "mind of God"?
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
I know what you claim. They are nothing but claims. They are false claims used to "fit in" among others. You don't understand why I took to this point in this conversation.
I have you hear/here to deal with your misconceptions with reason, the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit. So come along in this journey of discovery.
The Spirit reveals "itself" in the relationships between men through words of reason in the perspective of God that comes through the Holy Spirit.
As a Nazarene, you should understand this.
So. I noticed in my "Trinitarian" training thread I started, that you didn't participate. Maybe you didn't see it or you avoided it. In that "training" session I wrote about the qualties of Divinity that speak of origination. "Intrinsic" requires that the origins of the character and qualities of the Holy Trinity come from within. Not external from any source. To say that Christ learned from the Father is contrary to this vital aspect of the Innate/Intrinsic qualities of "Person" found in the Hypostatic Union.
Now. I know you don't understand this or you would have never said what you said. @civic knows this. It is his foundational beliefs that exist in understanding the Perspective of the Holy Trinity that makes him different than most any of you in this forum. I remember telling him years ago that I had gotten to where I didn't enjoy battling Unitarians because of how difficult it is to change their perspective. I don't remember if I used those exact words but that is what I was attempting to relate to him.
You are not a functional Trinitarian. You may claim to be. You may pretend to be but you're not. You need to know this.
Can I ask that you stop referencing others as if they're an authority on this subject. They're not. The authority exists with God and through His revelation to us in the Holy Spirit.
So. There is no need to reference an external source to try to say I'm wrong. Speak from your heart. Speak from the "mouth" of the Spirit to me and to others.
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I have nothing against Doug or you. Doug posted a truth that Glorifies God, like the truth that Jesus was "Learned of the Father", as the Scriptures I posted, but you ignored, clearly state..
Is. 7: 15 Butter and honey shall he eat, "that he may know" to "refuse" the evil, and "choose" the good.
Am I not allowed to like a post without incurring your wrath? Or am I supposed to clear it with you, before I agree with someone else? Perhaps a little advice from Paul might help you here.
Gal. 6: 3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
I'm not sure I follow you. The philosophies you have adopted and are promoting on this forum since I first heard you, have been promoted by the mainstream religions of this world my enter life. That you promote your understanding of "trinitarianism" as superior to Doug's or Civics' is no different than Calvinism preachers promoting that their "trinitarianism" is superior to Doug's and Civics'.
Try a little humility.
2 Sam. 22: 28 And the afflicted people thou wilt save: but thine eyes are upon the haughty, that thou mayest bring them down.
I am not in a battle with you, rather, I battle the spirit of this world that drives you to exalt yourself above so many, and drives you to make so many judgments against anyone who would question even one of your words.
I simply posted Christ's Words which I believe tells me that His Knowledge came from His Father. It was your free will choice to reply in such a judgmental way.
Well there you go. But even the spirit of this philosophy you have adopted and are now promoting to others, has been in the heart of men who promote this world's mainstream religious system since Cain and Abel. Paul was considered to be the "enemy of God" by the mainstream religions of his time. Jesus was murdered because HE was considered an enemy of God by the mainstream preachers of His Time. Stephen as well.
You are free to post u-tube videos promoting your superiority over others if you want, to convince other men that I am the enemy of God. And surely you do so to be "Seen of men" and receive their praise. But I won't engage in such behavior with you.
Perhaps a little humility might be in order for you. Why not just admit that according to Scriptures, Jesus received His Knowledge and Wisdom from His Father, which is what Doug was stating?
I am a nobody, nothing in this world. Insignificant in the scope of this world's religions. What I believe or don't believe is irrelevant. In my reply to you, that cause all this judgment to spew out of your mouth, I posted many Words which Jesus Himself spoke, concerning where His Knowledge, power, Words etc., came from. All of which you found unworthy to even acknowledge, much less address. I simply asked, " Why would anyone NOT believe Jesus got His information from His Father?"
I didn't make the case for your judgment, Jesus did, I just posted His Teaching.
So in truth, your argument has never been against "my beliefs", but the Word's of the same Jesus you call Lord, Lord. I have already made the case, you already have the post. There is nothing more to add.
So make your video, make your argument and post it on the internet to be seen by thousands of men, and then continue your wicked judgment that I am an enemy of God, "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world", because I actually believe the Word's of His Son.
Your judgments are a badge of honor, and sign from God that HE knows me in this wicked world HE placed me in. And I am forever grateful.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I'm not going to respond to everything you say. I will deal with your response to what I asked. I will again offer a public video or audio debate. I will go into dealing with your "rabbit trails" there. Not here.
None of those words you referenced have anything to do with the origination of what Christ knew. None of them. You are referencing Christ's experience. Not the origination of what Christ knew and where it came from.
I'm not going to get into one of those "I'm of God and you're not" arguments. Nor one of those "I'm humble and you're not" arguments. We can handle this when Christ Judges humanity. I will wait. I don't have to win an argument against you. This isn't about winning or losing in the eyes of men to me.
I offer a video/audio debate to prove that I don't need a scripted response being used from someone to make my arguments for me. That is what most people do here. That is what most everyone has done on the internet for a very long time. I don't write books. Though I've always wanted to. There are a few reasons why. Reasons that I believe will be lost on you.
I have conversations. I try to engage at a meaningful level so people can show what they are. Let others judge each other.
TibiasDad
Active Member
God knows all things: what was, what is, and what is to come and all possibilities in between. It is impossible for him to not know these things. This doesn’t mean that he actively predetermined what will be. He just knows.
Doug
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Well. That is over simplifying at its finest......
I don't know your intent brother. God knows. You seem like a good guy and sincere in everything you say. I believe that. Like I said in another post. Most people just don't care enough to unpack what you just said. It is meaningful to "unpack" that statement to the point of beginning to understand it. It will change your theology. I will change you.
I don't believe everyone needs to understand the intricate nature of God to this point. However, if we are going to truly battle the forces of darkness and evil people in this life, we must know such.
The battle for the Character of Christ depends upon it. Knowing the Truth avoids false doctrines that damn lives.
TibiasDad
Active Member
And yet I should accept your opinion as authoritative? How would you know they are not an expert if you don’t believe you exceed their authority and expertise?
Every one of us has to interpret the perfect words of scripture. The more knowledge we gain about the original languages in which they are written, the better we can discern what the individual authors intended by their words.
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
Why don’t you just cut to the chase and tell me what I truly believe; you apparently know me better than myself and think that there is more to what I said than of which I am aware.
Doug
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
They have no authority. That is what I said. Notice what I said. You need to establish that they have authority. Nothing less.
I've not claimed authority. Never said I did. No one on this planet can claim authority from God. We are all in the same situation.
You argue/debate as if you've never done this before.
I can argue/debate from that same perspective. I've proven it over and over again here. However, that isn't enough for me anymore. Hasn't been in a long time.
I want the Spirit of God to recognize among us what is right and what is wrong.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Okay. I'll state the obvious.
You are a self identifying Arminian. I know what you believe because I know what your teachers taught you.
Now, if you differ from them, then please detail it yourself. The onus is not upon me to tell or identify where YOU are different from your teachers.
So either claim them or stop calling yourself after them.
John 8: 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; "but as my Father hath taught me", I speak these things.
John 5: 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but "what he seeth the Father do": for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and "sheweth him" all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Mark 13: 31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 32 But of that day and that hour "knoweth no man", no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
John 17: 8 For I have given unto them the words "which thou gavest me"; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed "that thou didst send me".
So what Jesus did, "HE SAID" originated from His Father. This Jesus said that HE does the "works" that originated from His Father. The "Words" Jesus Spoke, originated from His Father.
His very existence on Earth, according to HIM, originated from His Father.
John 17: 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work "which thou gavest me to do".
His Works, everything HE did, originated from His Father, at least according to dozens of eye witness accounts that were recorded as a Testimony of Him.
This is evident even when Jesus was a child.
Luke 2: 49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about "my Father's business"?
I fear it's too late for that in this thread.
You will "wait"? It seems you have already judged Doug and I as inferior to you, and beneath you in this matter. Even Judging me as a hater of God. You know, we can read your posts.
Then why the video?
Perhaps you should think about including the Christ's Words when exacting your arguments. Just a suggestion.
Why would it be important to someone who has "Yielded themselves to God", to understand the reason why you don't write books?
It works both ways PY. You show people who you are as well.
