Total Depravity

[TomL]

@TomL



I dont need to, wont change nothing

You have only denial

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened, they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[brightfame52]

The Saints of old acknowledged their total depravity towards Christ and how they would reject Him,

Isa 53:2-3

2 ;For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

See how many times the Prophet used the plural pronoun WE

In Vs 3 He was rejected of men, that's the natural man, naturally we reject Christ. He is despised as well, He is not even desirable. Thats why in Rom 3:11 no one seeks after God, desires God.

 

[TomL]

The Saints of old acknowledged their total depravity towards Christ and how they would reject Him,

Isa 53:2-3

2 ;For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

See how many times the Prophet used the plural pronoun WE

In Vs 3 He was rejected of men, that's the natural man, naturally we reject Christ. He is despised as well, He is not even desirable. Thats why in Rom 3:11 no one seeks after God, desires God.

A general truth of the rejection of Christ. It does not, however, teach a total inability to believe on, to receive Christ.

John 1:11–12 (LEB) — 11 He came to his own things, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God,

 

[brightfame52]

A general truth of the rejection of Christ. It does not, however, teach a total inability to believe on, to receive Christ.

John 1:11–12 (LEB) — 11 He came to his own things, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God,

All of Gods Saints will be caused to realize their depravity and their need for the Promised Redeemer, in fact thats one of the reasons for the Law of God towards the OT remnant Gal 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Paul was given to know of his depravity by the law Rom 7:7-9

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died

Paul as an unconverted man and very religious didnt know his depravity, he felt secure in his religion Phil 3:4-6

4 ;Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Yet during that time he was totally depraved, but he must be taught that supernaturally as do all the elect Christ died to save from sin.

 

[TomL]

All of Gods Saints will be caused to realize their depravity and their need for the Promised Redeemer, in fact thats one of the reasons for the Law of God towards the OT remnant Gal 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Paul was given to know of his depravity by the law Rom 7:7-9

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died

Paul as an unconverted man and very religious didnt know his depravity, he felt secure in his religion Phil 3:4-6

4 ;Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Yet during that time he was totally depraved, but he must be taught that supernaturally as do all the elect Christ died to save from sin.

Ignoring the point which is the ability to believe and come to Christ

John 1:12 (LEB) — 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God,

You already ran from

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[brightfame52]

Ignoring the point which is the ability to believe and come to Christ

John 1:12 (LEB) — 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God,

You already ran from

I have no problem with Jn 1:12, it doesnt say men arent totally depraved does it

 

[TomL]

I have no problem with Jn 1:12, it doesnt say men arent totally depraved does it

Ignoring the point which is the ability to believe and come to Christ

John 1:12 (LEB) — 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God,

You already ran from

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened, they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


Unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy, and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[brightfame52]

Ignoring the point which is the ability to believe and come to Christ

John 1:12 (LEB) — 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God,

You already ran from

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened, they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


Unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy, and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

You failed to show one scripture that stated man isnt totally depraved.

 

[brightfame52]

By nature all men by total depravity are people with no faith,

Deut 32:20

And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

 

[civic]

By nature all men by total depravity are people with no faith,

Deut 32:20

And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

adults in the context- nothing about being doomed from the womb.- your fatalistic beliefs are not found in the bible since you make them all up.

next fallacy.

 

[brightfame52]

adults in the context- nothing about being doomed from the womb.- your fatalistic beliefs are not found in the bible since you make them all up.

next fallacy.

Worry about what it says not what it doesnt say.

 

[civic]

Worry about what it says not what it doesnt say.

projecting again

 

[brightfame52]

By nature all men by total depravity are people with no obedience, in fact we have a nature of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

So how can we obey against nature ? Thats like a frog to stop being a frog and become a Sheep

 

[brightfame52]

We are children of unbelief ! In natures depravity we are children of unbelief Eph 2:2

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience/unbelief:

The word for disobedience apeitheia is also translated unbelief Rom 11:30,32

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So it can read Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of unbelief:

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

By nature all men by total depravity are people with no obedience, in fact we have a nature of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

What Calvin got wrong is that men can be far from God, but God is not far from men.
What Calvin got wrong is that men were created in the image of God, and even called "gods".
There is something INTRINSIC to human nature (which is not shared by, say, chimpanzees) that makes men the special object of love and interest of God, and able to respond or delay their response to the call of God.

When I say "able", I mean in the ability God placed in us.
Calvin would reject the very sense of "human ability", because he dissociates human nature from God's continuous and all-powerful creative, sustaining and regenerative power.
In the same way that mens' ability to memorize or make mathematical calculations is God's gift, the ability to respond or delay the response to God's call is God's gift. It is in our nature. All praise be to God!

Men cannot have "total depravity" because as Paul told the Pagan Athenians, "in God we live, and move, and have our existence" and "He is not far from us" and "We are his offspring."
Please realize that these words were pronounced by Paul to Pagan Athenians, not to converted Christians.

God expressed this concept through the writings of Bahá'u'lláh by saying:
"O SON OF SPIRIT! Noble have I created thee, yet thou hast abased thyself. Rise then unto that for which thou wast created."

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Worry about what it says not what it doesnt say.

Better worry about what it means, and not about what it says.
It is not the letter who gives life, but the spirit. And the spirit works also through our reasoning and emotions and experiences from life.
So, our search in Scriptures (and in life in general) is a search of meaning. A spiritual search that makes us live differently.

The doctrine that makes you love God more, and love your neighbors more (even baha'is like me) must be true over a doctrine that makes you think that millions of men are doomed to eternal torture by God, who denied them permanently his salvific love.

 

[brightfame52]

@Pancho Frijoles

What Calvin got wrong is that men can be far from God, but God is not far from men.

This aint about calvin but the word of God, I showed you scripture

 

[brightfame52]

Better worry about what it means, and not about what it says.
It is not the letter who gives life, but the spirit. And the spirit works also through our reasoning and emotions and experiences from life.
So, our search in Scriptures (and in life in general) is a search of meaning. A spiritual search that makes us live differently.

The doctrine that makes you love God more, and love your neighbors more (even baha'is like me) must be true over a doctrine that makes you think that millions of men are doomed to eternal torture by God, who denied them permanently his salvific love.

Thats how people deceive themselves, when they see a verse that states a certain truth they reject, they rationalize it away by saying, well it doesnt say this or that.

 

[civic]

Thats how people deceive themselves, when they see a verse that states a certain truth they reject, they rationalize it away by saying, well it doesnt say this or that.

You are pretty good at it too

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thats how people deceive themselves, when they see a verse that states a certain truth they reject, they rationalize it away by saying, well it doesnt say this or that.

Taking verses literally is also deceptive, my friend. Furthermore, it is delusional.
To avoid deception, we all must continuously learn, continuously practice honesty, continuously challenge our own views, continuously pray, continuously examine reality as it is, continuously correct our misconceptions… but perhaps more importantly, asking ourselves whether the idea we cherish make us love more God and humanity.