Wilber
Active Member
Yes they can...common grace.
Total Depravity
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
GodsGrace
Active Member
Are you saying that we're born in sin?
brightfame52
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
We are born a sinner, YES, everyone sinned in Adam as a grown man
GodsGrace
Active Member
I didn't ask if we're born a sinner.
This is what I'm asking:
When we're born HAVE WE ALREADY SINNED?
IOW,,,do we have a sin on our soul as soon as we're born?
Wilber
Active Member
But it do.
The third point of common grace as adopted by the CRC pertains to “civic righteousness by the unregenerate.” This means that God, without renewing the heart, exercises such influence that even the unsaved man is enabled to perform good deeds toward his fellow man. As Paul said of a group of unregenerate Gentiles, they “do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law” (Romans 2:14).
brightfame52
Active Member
Thats what you get, everyone sinned and died in Adam, and so everyone is born a sinner, from the womlb. And im not getting into that stupid debate about babies sinning, if thats what you hinting about you will get blocked.
brightfame52
Active Member
Whatever common grace is, its not the New Birth by which a person partakes of a new nature that is liberated from sin. One is born again or not
Wilber
Active Member
Well ya, but that's not the point. Here is a article by R.C. Sproul a top teacher of Calvinism.
Common grace refers to several concepts or experiences that we observe as Christians. On the one hand, we realize that in God’s divine providence He pours out benefits that are enjoyed not simply by believers, but by believers and non-believers alike. With respect to such benefits and such activities, the common grace of God is linked closely to two distinct aspects of the love of God. As I explained in my article from the May 2004 issue of Tabletalk, we distinguish among three distinct types of the love of God, two of which involve common grace.
The first of these aspects is God’s love of benevolence. The term benevolence means simply “good will.” And God’s love for the human race may be defined in terms of His having a generally kind disposition to all of His creatures, fallen as they may be. This, of course, does not negate God’s stance of wrath and anger towards those who continue in disobedience and in resisting the proper worship and gratitude the creature owes to God. But God’s love of benevolence reflects His good will towards all creatures.
This disposition, or kindness, that God displays towards all creatures indiscriminately is linked to the second type of love that we use to define God’s character. That is His love of beneficence. Where benevolence has to do with God’s will, beneficence has to do with God’s actions as they pertain to His activity on behalf of the whole created realm. We see that He not only has a divine kindness towards His creatures, He acts with a loving provision for the whole human race.
Jesus said that rain falls upon the just as well as the unjust. If we have two farmers living side by side, laboring each day to bring forth produce from the soil, we know that both farmers require the light of the sun, as well as a sufficient amount of rain to bring forth a healthy crop. If the two farmers are distinguished in terms of faith, one being a regenerate believer and the other an unregenerate non-believer, we don’t expect the sun simply to shine on the believer’s fields and the rain simply to moisten his crop, while at the same time God withholds the gifts of rain and sunshine from the unregenerate. On the contrary, both farmers reap the benefits of the grace of God. He owes neither farmer the gifts of rain and sunshine, as both of those come from His sovereign bounty. Nevertheless, He pours out these gifts to both believer and unbeliever, commonly. So, in this respect, when we speak of the love of God in His beneficence, His beneficence is common, that is, the whole world benefits from God’s grace to a certain degree.
GodsGrace
Active Member
You could block me BF....it's OK.
This is your original statement:
Man unregenerated is a slave to sin, his will serves sin, his mind serves sin and we are born that way.
Every Christian believes we're born with a stain on our soul.
Some call this concupiscence.
Some call this the sin nature.
What you've stated above SOUNDS LIKE you believe that even children sin.
Now, you may think it's a stupid argument but Dr. James White does not.
He believes babies are born with sin already on their souls.
So,,,what I had asked is this:
WHAT SIN DOES A BABY COMMIT?
You could make it be a child...or a young teenager.
You really do DISLIKE to answer questions....
What are you AFRAID OF???
Here's MY answer:
Babies are born with a stained soul.
But a baby cannot sin because in order for an act to be sinful,,,the person MUST KNOW that he is sinning.
We are each responsible for our own sins...many verses about this.
Since sin is a PERSONAL act....
it is IMPOSSIBLE for a baby to sin.........
Ezekiel 18:19-20
19 "Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?' When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
James 1:14-15
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Galatians 6:5
5For each will have to bear his own load.
brightfame52
Active Member
Hey if its not a new nature given by regeneration, you stuck in the slavery of sin
brightfame52
Active Member
You blocked
Neil Spargo
Active Member
Total depravity is the Calvinist doctrine that human nature is thoroughly corrupt and sinful as a result of the fall of Adam. According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, the definition of depraved is – very evil: having or showing an evil and immoral character. In addition, Merriam- Webster defines depravity as a very evil quality or way of behaving: an evil or immoral act.
The question I would like to present here is this: Does the whole counsel of scripture support the belief that all humanity is totally depraved (having very evil and immoral character)?
The question is not, “Has all humanity been effected by sin?” The question is that of total depravity. Is all (unsaved) humanity completely evil to the core? In a nutshell, total depravity is the belief that all humanity, as a result of the fall of Adam, is corrupt in their entire being and wholly incapable of doing anything truly good.
If all humanity has become totally depraved through the fall of Adam, then it would stand to reason that all of Adam’s descendants, without exception, would be totally depraved.
Does the Biblical account of all the people in the Bible support this ideology, or does the testimony of scripture refute it? I contend that the Biblical record refutes it, and I would like present the reasons why I make that claim.
Beginning in Genesis 4, the concept of totally depravity is called into question.
After Cain became angry because God had accepted Abel’s offering and had not accepted his offering, God told Cain that sin was knocking at the door and that he should not allow it to rule over him, least it become his master (see Genesis 4:6-7).
God did not deal with Cain as if he were totally depraved. On the contrary, God instructed Cain to rule over this sin that was knocking at the door. The Bible tells us that Cain murdered his brother not because he was totally depraved, but because his deeds were evil and his brother’s was righteous.
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous. (1 John 3:10-11)
If all humanity were totally depraved, then this would include Abel, yet the apostle John tells us that Abel’s works were righteous. Remember the definition of depravity is a very evil quality or way of behaving: an evil or immoral act. The Bible never describes Abel in this way. On the contrary, the Bible repeatedly describes Abel and his works as righteous.
If Cain and Abel had been totally depraved, Cain would have been unable to rule over the sin knocking at the door, and Abel would not have done that which was righteous.
In the gospels, the Lord Jesus Christ declared that Abel was righteous (Matthew 23:35) and the writer of Hebrews tells us: Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. (Hebrews 11:4)
No matter how you stack it, the statement, “Abel obtained witness that he was righteous,” completely dismantles any concept of total depravity: a theology that does not take into account the testimony of scripture concerning the real people who lived for God.
If the doctrine of total depravity were true, it would be true of everyone, but what about those in scripture who sought after God?
WHAT ABOUT ENOCH?
The Bible says, Enoch walked with God (Genesis 5:24). The author of Hebrews tells us: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.(Hebrews 11:4)
Enoch was such a man of God, who pleased God, he never died! Jude tells us that Enoch prophesied of the coming of the Lord as well (Jude 1:14).
WHAT ABOUT NOAH?
The Bible says Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God (Genesis 6:9). Noah was righteous in the sight of the Lord (Genesis 7:1) and in Ezekiel, God mentions Noah along with Daniel and Job as righteous (Ezekiel 14:14, 20).
In the New Testament, the apostle Peter refers to Noah as a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) and the writer of Hebrews testifies of Noah’s righteousness as well.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear (the fear of the Lord), prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became the heir of the righteousness which is by faith (Hebrews 11:7).
WHAT ABOUT ABRAHAM?
The scriptures tells us, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, 9, 22; Galatians 3; 6; James 2:23).
Abraham had integrity of heart (Genesis 20:5-6) and a faithful heart towards God(Nehemiah 9:7, 8) and Abraham is called the friend of God (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23). Throughout scripture God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 32:22; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37; Acts 3:13; 7:32).
Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56) and God’s promise to Abraham was to bless all the nations through his seed: Jesus Christ (Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16).
Abraham is called the father of faith and the father of all who believe (Romans 4:16; Galatians 3:7, 9, 29) and the blessing of Abraham comes on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14).
Abraham was a man of faith who obeyed and feared God (Genesis 22: 12; 26:5; Hebrews 11:8). We see also that Isaac and Jacob were men of faith who feared the Lord and obeyed him as well.
Also, the apostle Peter refers to Sarah, Abraham’s wife, as an example of holy women, who trusted God, by adorning themselves with a meek and quite spirit (1 Peter 3:4-6).
Lot, Abraham’s nephew, also was a righteous man.
In 2 Peter 2:7-10, the apostle Peter references Lot as an example of how the Lord is able to deliver the godly out of temptations. Peter calls Lot a just and righteous man whom the Lord delivered from the fitly lifestyle of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha.
We also read of others in the scriptures, who feared God, before we ever get to Moses and the Exodus of Israel from Egypt. For example the Hebrew midwives feared God and refused to obey the King of Egypt (Exodus 1:17) and because they feared the Lord, many lives of Hebrew children were spared, and God gave the midwives familes (Exodus 1:20-21).
WHAT ABOUT JOSEPH, MOSES, JOSHUA, AND CALEB?
Joseph fled from sin when he was tempted by Potiphar’s wife (Genesis 39:7-12) and forgave his brothers who betrayed him.
Moses is called the man of God (Deuteronomy 33:1; Psalm 90:1; 1 Chronicles 23;14) and was a very humble man (Numbers 12:3) and interceded for Israel seeking God’s forgiveness and favor (Exodus 32:11). Moses feared the Lord (Deuteronomy 9:16-29) and was faithful in God’s house (Numbers 12:7; Hebrews 3:5).
Furthermore, the author of Hebrews says, By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Through faith he kept the Passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned (Hebrews 11:24-29).
Moses’ successor, Joshua, was chosen by God to lead the children of Israel into the Promised Land because he was a man who sought God, feared God, and trusted God. Also the mantle which God had placed on Moses was transferred to Joshua before he led Israel into the Promised land (Deuteronomy 31:14, 23; 34:9).
During the time of Moses we read of others like Caleb, who along with Joshua were the only 2 among the 12 spies who trusted God and because of their faith they were rewarded by God. In fact God said of the following about Caleb:
But My servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed Me fully, him will I bring into the land where into he went; and his seed shall possess it (Numbers 14:24).
REFUTING TOTAL DEPRAVITY
Romans 3:10-18 says the following: 10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12. They are all gone out …
rootedandgroundedinchrist.com
brightfame52
Active Member
All men by nature are totally depraved Rom 3:9-20Total depravity is the Calvinist doctrine that human nature is thoroughly corrupt and sinful as a result of the fall of Adam. According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, the definition of depraved is – very evil: having or showing an evil and immoral character. In addition, Merriam- Webster defines depravity as a very evil quality or way of behaving: an evil or immoral act.
The question I would like to present here is this: Does the whole counsel of scripture support the belief that all humanity is totally depraved (having very evil and immoral character)?
The question is not, “Has all humanity been effected by sin?” The question is that of total depravity. Is all (unsaved) humanity completely evil to the core? In a nutshell, total depravity is the belief that all humanity, as a result of the fall of Adam, is corrupt in their entire being and wholly incapable of doing anything truly good.
If all humanity has become totally depraved through the fall of Adam, then it would stand to reason that all of Adam’s descendants, without exception, would be totally depraved.
Does the Biblical account of all the people in the Bible support this ideology, or does the testimony of scripture refute it? I contend that the Biblical record refutes it, and I would like present the reasons why I make that claim.
Beginning in Genesis 4, the concept of totally depravity is called into question.
After Cain became angry because God had accepted Abel’s offering and had not accepted his offering, God told Cain that sin was knocking at the door and that he should not allow it to rule over him, least it become his master (see Genesis 4:6-7).
God did not deal with Cain as if he were totally depraved. On the contrary, God instructed Cain to rule over this sin that was knocking at the door. The Bible tells us that Cain murdered his brother not because he was totally depraved, but because his deeds were evil and his brother’s was righteous.
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous. (1 John 3:10-11)
If all humanity were totally depraved, then this would include Abel, yet the apostle John tells us that Abel’s works were righteous. Remember the definition of depravity is a very evil quality or way of behaving: an evil or immoral act. The Bible never describes Abel in this way. On the contrary, the Bible repeatedly describes Abel and his works as righteous.
If Cain and Abel had been totally depraved, Cain would have been unable to rule over the sin knocking at the door, and Abel would not have done that which was righteous.
In the gospels, the Lord Jesus Christ declared that Abel was righteous (Matthew 23:35) and the writer of Hebrews tells us: Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. (Hebrews 11:4)
No matter how you stack it, the statement, “Abel obtained witness that he was righteous,” completely dismantles any concept of total depravity: a theology that does not take into account the testimony of scripture concerning the real people who lived for God.
If the doctrine of total depravity were true, it would be true of everyone, but what about those in scripture who sought after God?
WHAT ABOUT ENOCH?
The Bible says, Enoch walked with God (Genesis 5:24). The author of Hebrews tells us: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.(Hebrews 11:4)
Enoch was such a man of God, who pleased God, he never died! Jude tells us that Enoch prophesied of the coming of the Lord as well (Jude 1:14).
WHAT ABOUT NOAH?
The Bible says Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God (Genesis 6:9). Noah was righteous in the sight of the Lord (Genesis 7:1) and in Ezekiel, God mentions Noah along with Daniel and Job as righteous (Ezekiel 14:14, 20).
In the New Testament, the apostle Peter refers to Noah as a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) and the writer of Hebrews testifies of Noah’s righteousness as well.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear (the fear of the Lord), prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became the heir of the righteousness which is by faith (Hebrews 11:7).
WHAT ABOUT ABRAHAM?
The scriptures tells us, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, 9, 22; Galatians 3; 6; James 2:23).
Abraham had integrity of heart (Genesis 20:5-6) and a faithful heart towards God(Nehemiah 9:7, 8) and Abraham is called the friend of God (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23). Throughout scripture God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 32:22; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37; Acts 3:13; 7:32).
Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56) and God’s promise to Abraham was to bless all the nations through his seed: Jesus Christ (Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16).
Abraham is called the father of faith and the father of all who believe (Romans 4:16; Galatians 3:7, 9, 29) and the blessing of Abraham comes on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14).
Abraham was a man of faith who obeyed and feared God (Genesis 22: 12; 26:5; Hebrews 11:8). We see also that Isaac and Jacob were men of faith who feared the Lord and obeyed him as well.
Also, the apostle Peter refers to Sarah, Abraham’s wife, as an example of holy women, who trusted God, by adorning themselves with a meek and quite spirit (1 Peter 3:4-6).
Lot, Abraham’s nephew, also was a righteous man.
In 2 Peter 2:7-10, the apostle Peter references Lot as an example of how the Lord is able to deliver the godly out of temptations. Peter calls Lot a just and righteous man whom the Lord delivered from the fitly lifestyle of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha.
We also read of others in the scriptures, who feared God, before we ever get to Moses and the Exodus of Israel from Egypt. For example the Hebrew midwives feared God and refused to obey the King of Egypt (Exodus 1:17) and because they feared the Lord, many lives of Hebrew children were spared, and God gave the midwives familes (Exodus 1:20-21).
WHAT ABOUT JOSEPH, MOSES, JOSHUA, AND CALEB?
Joseph fled from sin when he was tempted by Potiphar’s wife (Genesis 39:7-12) and forgave his brothers who betrayed him.
Moses is called the man of God (Deuteronomy 33:1; Psalm 90:1; 1 Chronicles 23;14) and was a very humble man (Numbers 12:3) and interceded for Israel seeking God’s forgiveness and favor (Exodus 32:11). Moses feared the Lord (Deuteronomy 9:16-29) and was faithful in God’s house (Numbers 12:7; Hebrews 3:5).
Furthermore, the author of Hebrews says, By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Through faith he kept the Passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned (Hebrews 11:24-29).
Moses’ successor, Joshua, was chosen by God to lead the children of Israel into the Promised Land because he was a man who sought God, feared God, and trusted God. Also the mantle which God had placed on Moses was transferred to Joshua before he led Israel into the Promised land (Deuteronomy 31:14, 23; 34:9).
During the time of Moses we read of others like Caleb, who along with Joshua were the only 2 among the 12 spies who trusted God and because of their faith they were rewarded by God. In fact God said of the following about Caleb:
But My servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed Me fully, him will I bring into the land where into he went; and his seed shall possess it (Numbers 14:24).
REFUTING TOTAL DEPRAVITY
Romans 3:10-18 says the following: 10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12. They are all gone out …
Enoch, his momma and daddy were born totally depraved, But God saved Enoch by Grace like He does all of His Elect, but until then,men are totally depraved, slaves to sin.
GodsGrace
Active Member
Not only the above Neil Spargo,,,which is a really great post BTW...very complete...Total depravity is the Calvinist doctrine that human nature is thoroughly corrupt and sinful as a result of the fall of Adam. According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, the definition of depraved is – very evil: having or showing an evil and immoral character. In addition, Merriam- Webster defines depravity as a very evil quality or way of behaving: an evil or immoral act.
The question I would like to present here is this: Does the whole counsel of scripture support the belief that all humanity is totally depraved (having very evil and immoral character)?
The question is not, “Has all humanity been effected by sin?” The question is that of total depravity. Is all (unsaved) humanity completely evil to the core? In a nutshell, total depravity is the belief that all humanity, as a result of the fall of Adam, is corrupt in their entire being and wholly incapable of doing anything truly good.
If all humanity has become totally depraved through the fall of Adam, then it would stand to reason that all of Adam’s descendants, without exception, would be totally depraved.
Does the Biblical account of all the people in the Bible support this ideology, or does the testimony of scripture refute it? I contend that the Biblical record refutes it, and I would like present the reasons why I make that claim.
Beginning in Genesis 4, the concept of totally depravity is called into question.
After Cain became angry because God had accepted Abel’s offering and had not accepted his offering, God told Cain that sin was knocking at the door and that he should not allow it to rule over him, least it become his master (see Genesis 4:6-7).
God did not deal with Cain as if he were totally depraved. On the contrary, God instructed Cain to rule over this sin that was knocking at the door. The Bible tells us that Cain murdered his brother not because he was totally depraved, but because his deeds were evil and his brother’s was righteous.
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous. (1 John 3:10-11)
If all humanity were totally depraved, then this would include Abel, yet the apostle John tells us that Abel’s works were righteous. Remember the definition of depravity is a very evil quality or way of behaving: an evil or immoral act. The Bible never describes Abel in this way. On the contrary, the Bible repeatedly describes Abel and his works as righteous.
If Cain and Abel had been totally depraved, Cain would have been unable to rule over the sin knocking at the door, and Abel would not have done that which was righteous.
In the gospels, the Lord Jesus Christ declared that Abel was righteous (Matthew 23:35) and the writer of Hebrews tells us: Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. (Hebrews 11:4)
No matter how you stack it, the statement, “Abel obtained witness that he was righteous,” completely dismantles any concept of total depravity: a theology that does not take into account the testimony of scripture concerning the real people who lived for God.
If the doctrine of total depravity were true, it would be true of everyone, but what about those in scripture who sought after God?
WHAT ABOUT ENOCH?
The Bible says, Enoch walked with God (Genesis 5:24). The author of Hebrews tells us: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.(Hebrews 11:4)
Enoch was such a man of God, who pleased God, he never died! Jude tells us that Enoch prophesied of the coming of the Lord as well (Jude 1:14).
WHAT ABOUT NOAH?
The Bible says Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God (Genesis 6:9). Noah was righteous in the sight of the Lord (Genesis 7:1) and in Ezekiel, God mentions Noah along with Daniel and Job as righteous (Ezekiel 14:14, 20).
In the New Testament, the apostle Peter refers to Noah as a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) and the writer of Hebrews testifies of Noah’s righteousness as well.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear (the fear of the Lord), prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became the heir of the righteousness which is by faith (Hebrews 11:7).
WHAT ABOUT ABRAHAM?
The scriptures tells us, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, 9, 22; Galatians 3; 6; James 2:23).
Abraham had integrity of heart (Genesis 20:5-6) and a faithful heart towards God(Nehemiah 9:7, 8) and Abraham is called the friend of God (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23). Throughout scripture God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 32:22; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37; Acts 3:13; 7:32).
Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56) and God’s promise to Abraham was to bless all the nations through his seed: Jesus Christ (Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16).
Abraham is called the father of faith and the father of all who believe (Romans 4:16; Galatians 3:7, 9, 29) and the blessing of Abraham comes on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14).
Abraham was a man of faith who obeyed and feared God (Genesis 22: 12; 26:5; Hebrews 11:8). We see also that Isaac and Jacob were men of faith who feared the Lord and obeyed him as well.
Also, the apostle Peter refers to Sarah, Abraham’s wife, as an example of holy women, who trusted God, by adorning themselves with a meek and quite spirit (1 Peter 3:4-6).
Lot, Abraham’s nephew, also was a righteous man.
In 2 Peter 2:7-10, the apostle Peter references Lot as an example of how the Lord is able to deliver the godly out of temptations. Peter calls Lot a just and righteous man whom the Lord delivered from the fitly lifestyle of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha.
We also read of others in the scriptures, who feared God, before we ever get to Moses and the Exodus of Israel from Egypt. For example the Hebrew midwives feared God and refused to obey the King of Egypt (Exodus 1:17) and because they feared the Lord, many lives of Hebrew children were spared, and God gave the midwives familes (Exodus 1:20-21).
WHAT ABOUT JOSEPH, MOSES, JOSHUA, AND CALEB?
Joseph fled from sin when he was tempted by Potiphar’s wife (Genesis 39:7-12) and forgave his brothers who betrayed him.
Moses is called the man of God (Deuteronomy 33:1; Psalm 90:1; 1 Chronicles 23;14) and was a very humble man (Numbers 12:3) and interceded for Israel seeking God’s forgiveness and favor (Exodus 32:11). Moses feared the Lord (Deuteronomy 9:16-29) and was faithful in God’s house (Numbers 12:7; Hebrews 3:5).
Furthermore, the author of Hebrews says, By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Through faith he kept the Passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned (Hebrews 11:24-29).
Moses’ successor, Joshua, was chosen by God to lead the children of Israel into the Promised Land because he was a man who sought God, feared God, and trusted God. Also the mantle which God had placed on Moses was transferred to Joshua before he led Israel into the Promised land (Deuteronomy 31:14, 23; 34:9).
During the time of Moses we read of others like Caleb, who along with Joshua were the only 2 among the 12 spies who trusted God and because of their faith they were rewarded by God. In fact God said of the following about Caleb:
But My servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed Me fully, him will I bring into the land where into he went; and his seed shall possess it (Numbers 14:24).
REFUTING TOTAL DEPRAVITY
Romans 3:10-18 says the following: 10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12. They are all gone out …
but total depravity states that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.
(I don't believe you addressed this)
I've often posted many verses that exhort man to seek God which totally debunks that doctrine.
But, of course, they're ignored.
GodsGrace
Active Member
I used to block people back in Kindergarten!
Wilber
Active Member
Wrong, BEFORE...
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.(Hebrews 11:4)
Bassnah
Active Member
Total Depravity start with a statement that everyone would agree upon which that man is sinful. There is no sane person on earth that would disagree with such a conclusion. So Calvinism takes this universal truth and uses it as a springboard into something that is not true which makes it more palatable. Cults do this as well and it is called the Biblical Hook. They put a little meat on the hook to catch you; a little Truth to cover up the deception. Of course, Calvinists do not deceive intentionally. This author is not trying to vilify Calvinists because Calvinists are wonderful people of God. Calvinism is not a cult because Calvinists believe the same basic tenets of the Christian faith as any other Christian Protestant church. However, their view of God is distorted. Calvinists are born-again believers but they have taken a path contrary to God’s Word concerning Total Depravity. We need to pray for them that God would give them a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of the Word. We need to love them and to help them get on the right path. We also need to pray the same over ourselves – that we would walk in the Truth of God’s revelation and not be deceived due to Satan, or the flesh, or pride.
What does “depraved” mean?
Deprave
DEPRAVE , v.t. [L. Crooked, perverse, wicked.]
To make bad or worse; to impair good qualities; to make bad qualities worse; to vitiate; to corrupt; as, to deprave manners, morals, government, laws; to deprave the heart, mind, will, understanding, taste, principles.(1)
This author certainly agrees that man is depraved. The Bible explicitly states that fact over and over. All adults are sinners and are spiritually separated from God. All of mankind has sinned and come short of God’s glory. However, the will of man never becomes unable to choose.
Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savor; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth ; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable ; there is none that doeth good, no, not one .
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God ;
However, this author disagrees with Total Depravity. By Total Depravity Calvinism concludes that man’s will becomes corrupted and thus non-functional. It believes that man’s will exists but it does not work so that we can choose God. Such a conclusion is found nowhere in Scriptures. It is right to say that man is depraved but to jump to the assumption that the will of man does not work is wrong. There is all the difference in the world between depraved and inability.
Man’s will does still function and we can use our will to choose God if the Holy Spirit enlightens us with the Gospel. However, Calvinism does not believe that even the divine Holy Spirit is strong enough to breech man’s depravity of mind. This author strongly disagrees with such a stance. Man’s depravity is not bigger than God. The Holy Spirit can and does reveal the Truth of the Gospel to our mind via our spirit so that we can make the choice to accept or reject God.
What does “depraved” mean?
Deprave
DEPRAVE , v.t. [L. Crooked, perverse, wicked.]
To make bad or worse; to impair good qualities; to make bad qualities worse; to vitiate; to corrupt; as, to deprave manners, morals, government, laws; to deprave the heart, mind, will, understanding, taste, principles.(1)
This author certainly agrees that man is depraved. The Bible explicitly states that fact over and over. All adults are sinners and are spiritually separated from God. All of mankind has sinned and come short of God’s glory. However, the will of man never becomes unable to choose.
Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savor; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth ; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable ; there is none that doeth good, no, not one .
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God ;
However, this author disagrees with Total Depravity. By Total Depravity Calvinism concludes that man’s will becomes corrupted and thus non-functional. It believes that man’s will exists but it does not work so that we can choose God. Such a conclusion is found nowhere in Scriptures. It is right to say that man is depraved but to jump to the assumption that the will of man does not work is wrong. There is all the difference in the world between depraved and inability.
Man’s will does still function and we can use our will to choose God if the Holy Spirit enlightens us with the Gospel. However, Calvinism does not believe that even the divine Holy Spirit is strong enough to breech man’s depravity of mind. This author strongly disagrees with such a stance. Man’s depravity is not bigger than God. The Holy Spirit can and does reveal the Truth of the Gospel to our mind via our spirit so that we can make the choice to accept or reject God.
By Thomas Taylor
brightfame52
Active Member
This doesnt say enoch wasnt born totally depraved.
