GodsGrace
Active Member
In every case where salvation is spoken of, we are told TO DO something.
NEVER are we told to just wait on God to see if He'll save us.
A different gospel indeed.
Total Depravity
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
In every case where salvation is spoken of, we are told TO DO something.
NEVER are we told to just wait on God to see if He'll save us.
A different gospel indeed.
brightfame52
Active Member
The Gospel is rejected by the unregenerate, they hate it, thats their response according to their nature
brightfame52
Active Member
One is rescued only when they are given a new nature by regeneration.
Matthias
Active Member
when we choose to believe in Jesus
Matthias
Active Member
But they can have a change of beliefs.
brightfame52
Active Member
You have to have a New Nature b4 you can believe in Jesus, He is the Light of the world, and by nature we hate the light
brightfame52
Active Member
Yeah men are very religious as slaves to sin, they may change from one false belief to another one, they cant stop being a servant of sin though. Dont you know some of the most religious, moral, good behaved, honest people are slaves to sin. Changing false gods doesnt help our depravity to sin, sorry
GodsGrace
Active Member
Isn't it Jesus that gives us our new nature?
John 3:3
3Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
So are you saying that we can see the Kingdom of God BEFORE we are born again?
Jesus said the opposite.
He said we had to be born again FIRST
and THEN we can see the Kingdom of God.
The Kingdom is:
A PLACE THAT HAS TO BE BELIEVED TO BE SEEN.
BELIEF COMES FIRST
THEN THE KINGDOM BECOMES VISIBLE.
Could you post some verse or verses that suport your theory that we must first
see the Kingdom and then become born again??
brightfame52
Active Member
Finally, I was wondering how long it would be for you to start your harassment. Until Jesus makes us free from sin, we remain servants to sin. He only sets us free if we are one of His Sheep.
GodsGrace
Active Member
The above is correct.
When Jesus frees us from sin...
we stop being slaves to sin.
This is what Paul said:
Romans 6:12-13
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
and
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Paul, a special messenger of Jesus, stated in Romans 6:16
that we PRESENT OURSELVES to the one whom we will serve.
We present ourselves...
This is a free-will action that we take.
Again...could you post something that supports your theory that we need to be born again first before we could become born again?
To be regenerated means we are born again.
So you say that we need to be regenerated first before we could be born again....
So, we must be born again before we are born again?
Please clarify.
Hosanna
Active Member
You become one of His sheep when He sets you free.
brightfame52
Active Member
@GodsGrace
Right, thats Salvation, thats when one is free from sin and can believe and become a servant of righteousness. Rom 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
being made free and becoming servants to God are both in the passive voice, the person performed no action, he was acted upon both times by God
he was by God first
Right, thats Salvation, thats when one is free from sin and can believe and become a servant of righteousness. Rom 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
being made free and becoming servants to God are both in the passive voice, the person performed no action, he was acted upon both times by God
he was by God first
- set at liberty: from the dominion of sin
- He was by God made a slave of,
GodsGrace
Active Member
Romans 6:19-22 Your verses....
19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
I agree BF...
We are now made free from sin...
and have become servants to God.
Verse 19 states that we had presented our members as slaves to impurity.
Is this passive? I don't believe so...it took an action from us...we presented ourselves.
Verse 22 We have been freed from sin and enslaved to God...
As verse 16 states....we are slaves to the one to whom WE PRESENT OURSELVES.
Again..we present ourselves to the one to whom we want to be a slave...
BF...you won't find any verse in the NT that states that we are regenerated first and then become saved.
It's salvation that causes the regeneration.
John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
First we hear Jesus' word.
Then we believe.
Then we have eternal life.
brightfame52
Active Member
Okay, nothing changed. A person cant believe in Christ while a slave to the dromion of sin. Thats all of us by nature
Wilber
Active Member
Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior is the only “step” to salvation. The message of the Bible is abundantly clear. We have all sinned against God.
Romans 3:23 Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives.
Because of our sin, we deserve to be eternally separated from God.
Romans 6:23 For the wages which sin pays is death, but the [bountiful] free gift of God is eternal life through (in union with) Jesus Christ our Lord.
Because of His love for us.
John 3:16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
God took on human form and died in our place, taking the punishment that we deserve.
Romans 5:8 But God shows and clearly proves His [own] love for us by the fact that while we were still sinners, Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) died for us.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake He made Christ [virtually] to be sin Who knew no sin, so that in and through Him we might become [endued with, viewed as being in, and examples of] the righteousness of God [what we ought to be, approved and acceptable and in right relationship with Him, by His goodness].
God promises forgiveness of sins and eternal life in heaven to all who receive, by grace through faith, Jesus Christ as Savior.
John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name
John 5:24 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the person whose ears are open to My words [who listens to My message] and believes and trusts in and clings to and relies on Him Who sent Me has (possesses now) eternal life. And he does not come into judgment [does not incur sentence of judgment, will not come under condemnation], but he has already passed over out of death into life.
Romans 3:23 Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives.
Because of our sin, we deserve to be eternally separated from God.
Romans 6:23 For the wages which sin pays is death, but the [bountiful] free gift of God is eternal life through (in union with) Jesus Christ our Lord.
Because of His love for us.
John 3:16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
God took on human form and died in our place, taking the punishment that we deserve.
Romans 5:8 But God shows and clearly proves His [own] love for us by the fact that while we were still sinners, Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) died for us.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake He made Christ [virtually] to be sin Who knew no sin, so that in and through Him we might become [endued with, viewed as being in, and examples of] the righteousness of God [what we ought to be, approved and acceptable and in right relationship with Him, by His goodness].
God promises forgiveness of sins and eternal life in heaven to all who receive, by grace through faith, Jesus Christ as Savior.
John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name
John 5:24 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the person whose ears are open to My words [who listens to My message] and believes and trusts in and clings to and relies on Him Who sent Me has (possesses now) eternal life. And he does not come into judgment [does not incur sentence of judgment, will not come under condemnation], but he has already passed over out of death into life.
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GodsGrace
Active Member
We have a stained nature at birth.
We call this the sin nature.
What you're saying goes beyond the teaching that we're born stained by original sin
and have in us the sin nature that is against God.
What you're saying is that a person is UNABLE to believe in God because of this sin nature.
And yet we are told to seek God and that we may know that He exists.
We can know that he exists:
Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
If we draw near to God...means we have the ability to draw near to God.
We must believe that He exists....means we can know that He exits.
HOW
can we know that God exists?
Paul tells us in Romans.
Romans 1:19-20
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Paul says:
1. Mankind has always been able to know the existence of God.
2. God made it evident to mankind.
3. God's eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen.
4. They are known by what has been made.
5. Because of this, man will have no excuse at the judgment.
brightfame52
Active Member
Man unregenerated is a slave to sin, his will serves sin, his mind serves sin and we are born that way
brightfame52
Active Member
Wilber
Active Member
Yes they can...common grace.
The doctrine of common grace pertains to the sovereign grace of God bestowed upon all of mankind regardless of their election. In other words, God has always bestowed His graciousness on all people in all parts of the earth at all times. Although the doctrine of common grace has always been clear in Scripture, in 1924, the Christian Reformed Church (CRC) adopted the doctrine of common grace at the Synod of Kalamazoo (Michigan) and formulated what is known as the “three points of common grace.”
The first point pertains to the favorable attitude of God toward all His creatures, not only toward the elect. “The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made” (Psalm 145:9). Jesus said God causes “his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous” (Matthew 5:45) and God “is kind to the ungrateful and wicked” (Luke 6:35). Barnabas and Paul would later say the same thing: “He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy” (Acts 14:17). In addition to His compassion, goodness, and kindness, God also sheds His patience upon both the elect and the non-elect. While God’s patience for His own is undoubtedly different from His patience with those whom He has not chosen, God still exercises “longsuffering” toward those whom He has not chosen (Nahum 1:3). Every breath that the wicked man takes is an example of the mercy of our holy God.
The second point of common grace is the restraint of sin in the life of the individual and in society. Scripture records God directly intervening and restraining individuals from sinning. In Genesis 20, God restrained Abimelech from touching Sarah, Abraham’s wife, and affirmed it to him in a dream by saying, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her” (Genesis 20:6). Another example of God restraining the wicked hearts of evil men is seen in God’s protection of the land of Israel from being invaded by the pagan nations on their border. God commanded the men of Israel that three times a year they would leave their plot of land to go and appear before Him (Exodus 34:23). To ensure the protection of God’s people from invasion during these times, even though the pagan nations surrounding them desired their land year-round, God promised that “no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the Lord your God” (Exodus 34:24). God also restrained David from taking revenge on Nabal for scorning the messengers that David sent to greet Nabal (1 Samuel 25:14). Abigail, Nabal’s wife, recognized God’s grace when she pleaded with David not to seek vengeance against her husband, “since the Lord has kept you, my master, from bloodshed and from avenging yourself with your own hands…” (1 Samuel 25:26). David acknowledged this truth by responding, “As surely as the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, who has kept me from harming you…” (1 Samuel 25:34).
This second point of common grace not only includes God’s restraining of evil, but also His sovereignly releasing it for His purposes. When God hardens the hearts of individuals (Exodus 4:21; Joshua 11:20; Isaiah 63:17), He does so by releasing His restraint on their hearts, thereby giving them over to the sin that resides there. In His punishment of Israel for their rebellion, God gave “them over to their stubborn hearts to follow their own devices” (Psalm 81:11-12). The passage of Scripture best known for speaking of God’s releasing of restraint is found in Romans 1 where Paul describes those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. God “gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another” (Romans 1:28).
The third point of common grace as adopted by the CRC pertains to “civic righteousness by the unregenerate.” This means that God, without renewing the heart, exercises such influence that even the unsaved man is enabled to perform good deeds toward his fellow man. As Paul said of a group of unregenerate Gentiles, they “do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law” (Romans 2:14). The necessity of God restraining the hearts of the unredeemed becomes clear when we understand the biblical doctrine of total depravity. If God did not restrain the evil that resides in the hearts of all men, hearts which are “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9), humanity would have destroyed itself centuries ago. But because He works through common grace given to all men, God’s sovereign plan for history is not thwarted by their evil hearts. In the doctrine of common grace, we see God’s purposes stand, His people blessed, and His glory magnified.
Got?
Wilber
Active Member
Yes they can...common grace.
