civic
Active Member
Paul is mentioned in John 4 ?
Title: So You Think Predestination Started When and With Whom?
- Thread starter FreeInChrist
- Start date
David Koberstein
Active Member
That was the question I had. I read that chapter in the TLV and I couldn't find anything related to what she was saying.
Shalom and Blessings to you!
David Koberstein
Active Member
Lot of opinion out of ignorance. An unkosher Gentile informing me a Jew
what my race is and who is Jewish and who is not. That's almost laughable and funny. I will stick with the Rabbinical interpetation thank you! Jews keep impeccable records on genealogies. Unfortunately, grandstanding Gentiles like you do not.Shalom
jeremiah1five
Active Member
All Hebrew people are born from Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13) and Sarai, his half-sister wife, even mixed heritage Hebrews. This family line begins with Eber, the son of Salah (Gen. 11.)
Once a son, always a son.
I've been writing that very thing. Why you keep throwing it back at me I don't understand.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
There were a couple of generations in-between, but Eber is an ancestor of Abraham.
Genesis 11 records the descendants of Eber.
Not humble, broken.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
What are you talking about? Abraham is not any father of non-Hebrew Gentiles. Gentiles were already in existence when God made covenant with Abraham in Genesis. They were not called Gentiles as that term came later to refer to non-Hebrews. Non-Hebrew Gentiles are born from Ham and Japheth. Non-Hebrew Gentiles can never claim Abraham is their father.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
So because they were Gentiles, God could not use them?
Jesus initially commended the inhabitants of Nineveh for repenting at the preaching of Jonah, while condemning the Jewish leaders for resisting His own message.
There is no where that I remember, and it is too early to go back and read it, that those in Nineveh who wore the sack cloth and repented, did so for any reason then they were afraid of the destruction they were warned about. The point of them is, they listened to and repented from the warnings of God.
I also do not ever remember them ever hearing of a Messiah and therefore the repentance was necessary.
They were a "Gentile" group, singled out, that did repent and listen to God so they would be the perfect example that even
a Gentile believes God when Jesus mentioned them and their repentance, by example contrasting that response to the unbelief of the Pharisees and teachers of the law .
Which was my point.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
OK... why is it that you have a problem with the Heavenly Father having used A Gentile in Abraham, brought into God's covenant through faith, prior to the establishment of the Jewish nation.
If there was no Jewish Nation before, why would that matter?
Why do you have a problem with Yahweh God using those at that time from Nineveh , which provided Jesus with some "outsiders" to compare to?
You certainly know that God is no respecter of persons... as we are told in Acts 10: 34Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. IOW, the Ninevites and Most Certainly Abraham
God, our Heavenly Father certainly is no bigot. He may have his chosen but then he extends the olive branch to the believing.
David Koberstein
Active Member
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
excuse me romans 4
My old age is catching up to me..lolEternally-Grateful
Active Member
Roman 4:
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
God saved them
And because of it were saved
Abraham did not know who the messiah was either when he believed God.
The point is Gentiles were saved in the OT also. not just Children of Jacob .
David Koberstein
Active Member
Romans 9:4-5 CJB
The people of Israel! They were made God's children, the Sh'khinah has been with them, the covenants are theirs,
likewise the giving of the Torah, the Temple service and the promises. the Patriarchs are theirs; and from them, as
far as his physical descent is concerned, came the Messiah, who is over all. Praised be Adonai for ever! Amen.
עם ישראל! הם נעשו לילדי אלוהים, השכינה הייתה איתם, הבריתות הן שלהם,
וכן מתן תורה, עבודת בית המקדש וההבטחות המכפלה הם שלהם; ומהם, כמו
בכל הנוגע לירידתו הפיזית, בא המשיח, שהוא מעל הכל. ישתבח אדונאי לנצח! אמן.
Shalom Aleichem שלום עליכם
David Koberstein
Active Member
True. One only needs to look at Ruth, Rahab, Bathsheba and Tamar.
They are all in the ancestral line of Messiah!
Thank you (Toda raba) for your input.
Shalom
civic
Active Member
Who appeared to Abraham ?
Since God took the form of a man in the person of the preincarnate Jesus Christ this has to mean that Jesus Christ is God. So on what basis do I come to this conclusion? On the basis of what Jesus Christ Himself said at John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath seen the Father." And on the basis of the testimony of Old Testament saints themselves. Look at Genesis 16:13, "Then she/Hagar called the name OF THE LORD WHO spoke to her, Thou art a God who sees; for she said, Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him." Genesis 18 reading the whole chapter. Here is what vs1 states, "Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he/Abraham was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." Please read the rest of the chapter and cross reference what Genesis 21:2 says regarding Genesis 18. "So Sarah conceived and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the appointed time OF WHICH GOD HAD SPOKEN TO HIM."
And who appeared to Isaac at Genesis 26:2? "And the Lord appeared to him and said, "Do not go down to Egypt, stay in the land of which I shall tell you." Now look at Genesis 26:3, "Sojourn in this land and I will be with you and bless you, for to your and to your descendants I will give all these lands, and I will ESTABLISH THE OATH WHICH I SWORE TO YOUR FATHER ABRAHAM."
Where did God swear this oath to Abraham ? Look at the whole chapter of Genesis 22 specifically verses 11-18. It was the angel of the Lord/Jesus Christ who swore the oathand He is identified as, what did you say, "God introduced Himself in the first person singular as "The Being." In fact, even the New Testament backs up this first person singular being swearing the oath by Himself at Hebrews 6:13,14, "For when GOD made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD NOT SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF. saying, "I will surely bless you; and I will surely multiply you." If you believe that it was an angel that swore the oath on Gods behalf than why does the text say God swore the oath BY HIMSELF AND THERE IS NO ONE GREATER, especially angels who are created like the rest of us mere humans.
The angel of the Lord who is YHWH is worshiped as YHWH- the Lord God !
Gen 22:11-14
But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.
12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided."
Exodus 3:2, 5
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed…And he said, Draw not nigh thither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”
Judg 6:11-28
The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, "The Lord is with you, mighty warrior."
13 "But sir," Gideon replied, "if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our fathers told us about when they said, 'Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt? But now the Lord has abandoned us and put us into the hand of Midian."
14 The Lord turned to him and said, "Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you?"
15 "But Lord,” Gideon asked, "how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family."
16 The Lord answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together."
17 Gideon replied, "If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you."
And the Lord said, "I will wait until you return."
19 Gideon went in, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.
20 The angel of God said to him, "Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth." And Gideon did so. 21 With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!"
23 But the Lord said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."
24 So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it The Lord is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
25 That same night the Lord said to him, "Take the second bull from your father's herd, the one seven years old.Tear down your father's altar to Baal and cut down the Asherah pole beside it. 26 Then build a proper kind of altar to the Lord your God on the top of this height. Using the wood of the Asherah pole that you cut down, offer the second bull as a burnt offering."
27 So Gideon took ten of his servants and did as the Lord told him. But because he was afraid of his family and the men of the town, he did it at night rather than in the daytime.
28 In the morning when the men of the town got up, there was Baal's altar, demolished, with the Asherah pole beside it cut down and the second bull sacrificed on the newly built altar!
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
Continued :
The Biblical and historical church fathers affirmed the truth regarding the identity of the "special " "unique" " messenger/angel of the Lord whom is called YHWH on numerous occasions and is worshiped as YHWH which would be idolatry. And we know all angels of God REFUSE to be worshipped and will not allow any man to worship them.
Gen 22:11-14
But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.
12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided."
Exodus 3:2, 5
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed…And he said, Draw not nigh thither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”
Judg 6:11-28
The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, "The Lord is with you, mighty warrior."
13 "But sir," Gideon replied, "if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our fathers told us about when they said, 'Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt? But now the Lord has abandoned us and put us into the hand of Midian."
14 The Lord turned to him and said, "Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you?"
15 "But Lord,” Gideon asked, "how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family."
16 The Lord answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together."
17 Gideon replied, "If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you."
And the Lord said, "I will wait until you return."
19 Gideon went in, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.
20 The angel of God said to him, "Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth." And Gideon did so. 21 With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!"
23 But the Lord said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."
24 So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it The Lord is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
25 That same night the Lord said to him, "Take the second bull from your father's herd, the one seven years old.Tear down your father's altar to Baal and cut down the Asherah pole beside it. 26 Then build a proper kind of altar to the Lord your God on the top of this height. Using the wood of the Asherah pole that you cut down, offer the second bull as a burnt offering."
27 So Gideon took ten of his servants and did as the Lord told him. But because he was afraid of his family and the men of the town, he did it at night rather than in the daytime.
28 In the morning when the men of the town got up, there was Baal's altar, demolished, with the Asherah pole beside it cut down and the second bull sacrificed on the newly built altar!
Well the main function or a general definition of a "shaliach" is as follows:
A shaliaḥ (שָלִיחַ; pl. שְלִיחִים, sheliḥim) in Halakha is a Jewish legal or agent. Accordingly, a shaliaḥ performs an act of legal significance for the benefit of the sender, as opposed to him or herself.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliach
A Chabad shliach (שליח, pl. שליחים/שלוחים, shlichim/shluchim) is a Chabad member sent out to promulgate Judaism and Chasidut around the world. Chabad shluchim today number about 4,000 worldwide, and can be found in many of even the most remote worldly locales.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliach_(Chabad)
Now, I am bringing this up for a very good reason and I want to cut to the chase of my point in this little exercise. The basic job of a "shaliach or the definition is an agent sent on a specfic mission to represent the interst of someon else. In short there are restrictions to the function of a shaliach and I will give you the best example.
Now, you have at Genesis 16:7 the very first appearance of the angel of the Lord. If you read the context from verse 7 to Genesis 17:1-2 you will discover that the Lord God Almighty is the speaker even though the the angel of the Lord is actually speaking. At verse 10 the angel of the Lord says that He will greatly multiply the descendents of Hagar. Then at Genesis 17:1 and 2 it's the Lord God Almighty who will multiply his descendents. You cannot get away from the fact that the same being is taking in the passages. Even at Genesis 16:13 Hagar says I have see the Lord God and am still alive.
Now, lets jump to Genesis 22 where God is going to test Abraham. You have the Lord God Almighty speaking from Genesis 22:1-10. There is no question about this fact. At verse 11 it states, "But the angel of the Lord called to him (Abraham) from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." Then at verse 15 the angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time." (Note: why does the angel of the Lord have to call out for God Himself a second time from heaven?) Is not the Lord God Himself capable of calling out from heaven Himself. I mean He did call out from heaven at Mark 1:11. He did not need the so-called shaliah then.
After the angel of the Lord calls out from heaven the second time which is Genesis 22:15 here is what this so-called shaliach/emissary says, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld you son, you only son. Indeed, I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore etc."
So you see from following the sequence of events a shaliach is limited or he can only do so much on behalf of the sender. He cannot swear an oath for the sender as you see the scriptures say. He cannot multiply the seed of anyone as you see the scriptures say.
Not only that but the real kicker of all of this is found in the NT at Hebrews 6:13. The writer of the Hebrews states, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, VS14, SAYING, "I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU , AND I WILL MULTIPLY YOU." This text is referring back to Genesis 22 and Abraham. A shaliach cannot swear an oath on behalf of the sender and it even says God swore by Himself. In short, the shaliach argument will not work and I maintain that the messenger of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ
hope this helps !!!
The Biblical and historical church fathers affirmed the truth regarding the identity of the "special " "unique" " messenger/angel of the Lord whom is called YHWH on numerous occasions and is worshiped as YHWH which would be idolatry. And we know all angels of God REFUSE to be worshipped and will not allow any man to worship them.
Gen 22:11-14
But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.
12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided."
Exodus 3:2, 5
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed…And he said, Draw not nigh thither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”
Judg 6:11-28
The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, "The Lord is with you, mighty warrior."
13 "But sir," Gideon replied, "if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our fathers told us about when they said, 'Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt? But now the Lord has abandoned us and put us into the hand of Midian."
14 The Lord turned to him and said, "Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you?"
15 "But Lord,” Gideon asked, "how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family."
16 The Lord answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together."
17 Gideon replied, "If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you."
And the Lord said, "I will wait until you return."
19 Gideon went in, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.
20 The angel of God said to him, "Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth." And Gideon did so. 21 With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!"
23 But the Lord said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."
24 So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it The Lord is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
25 That same night the Lord said to him, "Take the second bull from your father's herd, the one seven years old.Tear down your father's altar to Baal and cut down the Asherah pole beside it. 26 Then build a proper kind of altar to the Lord your God on the top of this height. Using the wood of the Asherah pole that you cut down, offer the second bull as a burnt offering."
27 So Gideon took ten of his servants and did as the Lord told him. But because he was afraid of his family and the men of the town, he did it at night rather than in the daytime.
28 In the morning when the men of the town got up, there was Baal's altar, demolished, with the Asherah pole beside it cut down and the second bull sacrificed on the newly built altar!
Well the main function or a general definition of a "shaliach" is as follows:
A shaliaḥ (שָלִיחַ; pl. שְלִיחִים, sheliḥim) in Halakha is a Jewish legal or agent. Accordingly, a shaliaḥ performs an act of legal significance for the benefit of the sender, as opposed to him or herself.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliach
A Chabad shliach (שליח, pl. שליחים/שלוחים, shlichim/shluchim) is a Chabad member sent out to promulgate Judaism and Chasidut around the world. Chabad shluchim today number about 4,000 worldwide, and can be found in many of even the most remote worldly locales.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliach_(Chabad)
Now, I am bringing this up for a very good reason and I want to cut to the chase of my point in this little exercise. The basic job of a "shaliach or the definition is an agent sent on a specfic mission to represent the interst of someon else. In short there are restrictions to the function of a shaliach and I will give you the best example.
Now, you have at Genesis 16:7 the very first appearance of the angel of the Lord. If you read the context from verse 7 to Genesis 17:1-2 you will discover that the Lord God Almighty is the speaker even though the the angel of the Lord is actually speaking. At verse 10 the angel of the Lord says that He will greatly multiply the descendents of Hagar. Then at Genesis 17:1 and 2 it's the Lord God Almighty who will multiply his descendents. You cannot get away from the fact that the same being is taking in the passages. Even at Genesis 16:13 Hagar says I have see the Lord God and am still alive.
Now, lets jump to Genesis 22 where God is going to test Abraham. You have the Lord God Almighty speaking from Genesis 22:1-10. There is no question about this fact. At verse 11 it states, "But the angel of the Lord called to him (Abraham) from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." Then at verse 15 the angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time." (Note: why does the angel of the Lord have to call out for God Himself a second time from heaven?) Is not the Lord God Himself capable of calling out from heaven Himself. I mean He did call out from heaven at Mark 1:11. He did not need the so-called shaliah then.
After the angel of the Lord calls out from heaven the second time which is Genesis 22:15 here is what this so-called shaliach/emissary says, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld you son, you only son. Indeed, I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore etc."
So you see from following the sequence of events a shaliach is limited or he can only do so much on behalf of the sender. He cannot swear an oath for the sender as you see the scriptures say. He cannot multiply the seed of anyone as you see the scriptures say.
Not only that but the real kicker of all of this is found in the NT at Hebrews 6:13. The writer of the Hebrews states, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, VS14, SAYING, "I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU , AND I WILL MULTIPLY YOU." This text is referring back to Genesis 22 and Abraham. A shaliach cannot swear an oath on behalf of the sender and it even says God swore by Himself. In short, the shaliach argument will not work and I maintain that the messenger of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)
Clement of Alexandria’s “The Instructor” Ch. 5“The Spirit calls the Lord Himself a child,thus prophesying by Esaias: “Lo, to us a child has been born, to us a son has been given, on whose own shoulder the government shall be; and His name has been called the Angel of great Counsel.” Who, then, is this infant child?”
Clement of Alexandria’s “The Instructor” Ch. 5“For since Scripture calls the infant children lambs, it has also called Him–God the Word–who became man for our sakes, and who wished in all points to be made like to us–“the Lamb of God”–Him, namely, that is the Son of God, the child of the Father.”
Clement of Alexandria’s “The Instructor” Ch. 7“Who, then, would train us more lovingly than He? Formerly the older people had an old covenant, and the law disciplined the people with fear, and the Word was an Angel; but to the fresh and new people has also been given a new covenant, and the Word has appeared, and fear is turned to love, and that Mystic Angel is born–Jesus… Now the law is ancient grace given through Moses by the Word. Wherefore also the Scripture says, “The law was given through Moses,” not by Moses, but by the Word, and through Moses His servant.”
Eusebius (265-339 A.D.)
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 1 Ch. 1 IT seems now time to say what I consider to be desirable at present to draw from the prophetic writings for the proof of the Gospel. They said that Christ, (Whom they named) the Word of God, and Himself both God and Lord, and Angel of Great Counsel, would one day dwell among men, and would become for all the nations of the world, both Greek and Barbarian, a teacher of true knowledge of God, and of such duty to God the Maker of the Universe, as the preaching of the Gospel includes.
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 1 Ch. 5 Remember how Moses calls the Being, Who appeared to the patriarchs, and often delivered to them the oracles afterwards written down in Scripture, sometimes God and Lord, and sometimes the Angel of the Lord. He clearly implies that this was not the Omnipotent God, but a secondary Being, rightly called the God and Lord of holy men, but the Angel of the Most High His Father.
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 1 Ch. 5 To which he adds: “16. And Jacob arose in the morning, and took the stone,
Courtesy of AnsweringIslam.com
which he had put under his head, and set it up as a pillar.” Then further on he calls this God and Lord Who appeared to him the Angel of God. For Jacob says: “11. For the Angel of God said to me in a dream, Jacob. And I said, What is it? ” And then: “12. I have seen, he says, all that Laban does to thee. I am the God that was seen by thee in the place of God, where thou anointedst for me there a pillar, and thou vowedst to me there a vow.”
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 4 Ch. 10 He is called as well Eternal High Priest, and also the Anointed (Christ) of the Father,for so among the Hebrews they were called Christs, who long ago symbolically presented a copy of the first (Christ). And when as Captain of the Angels He heads them (Rev. 19:11-19), He is called: “The Angel of Great Counsel (Isaiah 9:6 LXX),” and as Leader of the Armies of Heaven: “Captain of the Host of the Lord (Joshua 5:13-15).”
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 4 Ch. 17 From Exodus. How Jesus, the Successor of Moses, called the Angel, and about to be the Leader of the People, is said to bear the Name of Christ. “20. And behold, I send my angel before thy face, that he may keep thee in the way, that he may bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee. Take heed to thyself and hearken unto him and disobey him not; for he will not give way to thee, for my name is upon him (Exodus 23:20-21).”
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 5 Ch. 10 That the same Prophet shews more clearly in the Matter of Jacob the said Person to be Lord, Whom also He calls God, and an Angel of God Most High, in addressing Him.THIS Being who here answers him at such length, you will find, if you read on, to be Lord and God, and the Angel of God, from the words Jacob himself says to his wives: “And the angel of the Lord said to me in sleep,Jacob. And I said, Here am I.” And also: “I have seen, he says, all that Laban doeth to thee. I am the God, that was seen of thee in the place where thou anointedst the pillar for me, and offeredst prayer to me.”
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 5 Ch. 10 Therefore He that said before, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy Father, and the God of Isaac, to whom godly Jacob raises the pillar, was indeed God and Lord: for we must believe that which He Himself says. Not of course the Almighty, but the Second to Him, Who ministers for His Father among men, and brings His Word. Wherefore Jacob here calls Him an Angel: “The Angel of God said to me, speaking in my sleep, ‘ I am the God who was seen by thee in this place.’ ” So the same Being is clearly called the Angel of the Lord, and God and Lord in this place. And by Isaiah the Prophet he is called “Angel of Great Counsel,” as well as God and Ruler and Potentate, where His Incarnation is prophesied in the words: “For unto us a child is born, and to us a son is given, on whose shoulder shall be the rule, and his name shall be called the Angel of Great Counsel, Prince of Peace, the Mighty God, the Potentate, the Father of the Age to Come.”
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 5 Ch. 13 ..clearly shewing that the Almighty God Himself, Who is One, was not seen in His own Person; and that He did not give answers to the fathers, as He did to Moses by an angel, or a fire, or a bush, but “as a sufficient God”: so that the Father was seen by the fathers through the Son, according to His saying in the Gospels, “He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father.” For the knowledge of the Father was revealed in Him and by Him. But in cases when He appeared to save men, He was seen in the human form of the Son,..
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 5 Ch. 15 That it was not an Angel, who gave Answers to Moses, but Some One More Excellent than an Angel. IT will be plain to all that these could not be the words of a mere angel of God. But of what God could they be, but of the One seen by the forefathers, whom Jacob clearly called the Angel of God? And He we know was the Word of God, being called both the Servant of God, and God Himself and Lord.
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 5 Ch. 19 So, then, the command that was given shews that the God Who answered on both occasions was one and the same. Though here He prophesies through the Chief and Captain of His power, and to Moses by the vision of the angel… …what other could be highest of all but the Word of God, His Firstborn Wisdom, His Divine Offspring?Rightly, then, He is here called Chief Captain of the Power of the Lord, as also elsewhere “Angel of Great Counsel,” “Throned with the Father,” “Eternal and Great High Priest.” And it has been proved that the same Being is both Lord and God, and Christ anointed by the Father with the oil of gladness.
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 5 Ch. 28 THIS, too, is like the former prophecies. For the Lord God Himself, the Almighty, says that a Lord will come in His own temple,speaking of another: And He surely means God the Word. And after this also He names Him “the Angel of the Covenant (Malachi 3:1)” of Whom, too, Almighty God teaches that He will Him send forth before His face, saying, “Behold, I send forth my angel before my face.” And this same Being, Whom He has called “My angel,” He calls Lord directly after, and adds, “The Lord shall suddenly come, and the Angel of the Covenant (Malachi 3:1).”
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 5 Ch. 29 HE that has often been named Lord, and God, and Angel, and Chief Captain, Christ and Priest, and Word and Wisdom of God, and Image, this same Being is now called Sun of Righteousness. And we see that the Father that begat Him proclaims that He will rise not on all, but only on those that fear His Name, giving them the light of the Sun of Righteousness as a reward for their fear. He, then, must be God the Word, Who said, “I am the Light of the world”; for He was “the light that lighteth every man coming into the world.”
Eusebius’ “Preparation for the Gospel” Book 7 Ch. 15 “And this Beginning is before all originate things which followed, on which account also they are wont to call it the Image of God, and Power of God, and Wisdom of God, and Word of God, nay further the Great ‘Captain of the host of the Lord,’ and ‘Angel of the great Counsel.’” AnsweringIslam.com
hope this helps !!!
Clement of Alexandria’s “The Instructor” Ch. 5“The Spirit calls the Lord Himself a child,thus prophesying by Esaias: “Lo, to us a child has been born, to us a son has been given, on whose own shoulder the government shall be; and His name has been called the Angel of great Counsel.” Who, then, is this infant child?”
Clement of Alexandria’s “The Instructor” Ch. 5“For since Scripture calls the infant children lambs, it has also called Him–God the Word–who became man for our sakes, and who wished in all points to be made like to us–“the Lamb of God”–Him, namely, that is the Son of God, the child of the Father.”
Clement of Alexandria’s “The Instructor” Ch. 7“Who, then, would train us more lovingly than He? Formerly the older people had an old covenant, and the law disciplined the people with fear, and the Word was an Angel; but to the fresh and new people has also been given a new covenant, and the Word has appeared, and fear is turned to love, and that Mystic Angel is born–Jesus… Now the law is ancient grace given through Moses by the Word. Wherefore also the Scripture says, “The law was given through Moses,” not by Moses, but by the Word, and through Moses His servant.”
Eusebius (265-339 A.D.)
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 1 Ch. 1 IT seems now time to say what I consider to be desirable at present to draw from the prophetic writings for the proof of the Gospel. They said that Christ, (Whom they named) the Word of God, and Himself both God and Lord, and Angel of Great Counsel, would one day dwell among men, and would become for all the nations of the world, both Greek and Barbarian, a teacher of true knowledge of God, and of such duty to God the Maker of the Universe, as the preaching of the Gospel includes.
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 1 Ch. 5 Remember how Moses calls the Being, Who appeared to the patriarchs, and often delivered to them the oracles afterwards written down in Scripture, sometimes God and Lord, and sometimes the Angel of the Lord. He clearly implies that this was not the Omnipotent God, but a secondary Being, rightly called the God and Lord of holy men, but the Angel of the Most High His Father.
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 1 Ch. 5 To which he adds: “16. And Jacob arose in the morning, and took the stone,
Courtesy of AnsweringIslam.com
which he had put under his head, and set it up as a pillar.” Then further on he calls this God and Lord Who appeared to him the Angel of God. For Jacob says: “11. For the Angel of God said to me in a dream, Jacob. And I said, What is it? ” And then: “12. I have seen, he says, all that Laban does to thee. I am the God that was seen by thee in the place of God, where thou anointedst for me there a pillar, and thou vowedst to me there a vow.”
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 4 Ch. 10 He is called as well Eternal High Priest, and also the Anointed (Christ) of the Father,for so among the Hebrews they were called Christs, who long ago symbolically presented a copy of the first (Christ). And when as Captain of the Angels He heads them (Rev. 19:11-19), He is called: “The Angel of Great Counsel (Isaiah 9:6 LXX),” and as Leader of the Armies of Heaven: “Captain of the Host of the Lord (Joshua 5:13-15).”
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 4 Ch. 17 From Exodus. How Jesus, the Successor of Moses, called the Angel, and about to be the Leader of the People, is said to bear the Name of Christ. “20. And behold, I send my angel before thy face, that he may keep thee in the way, that he may bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee. Take heed to thyself and hearken unto him and disobey him not; for he will not give way to thee, for my name is upon him (Exodus 23:20-21).”
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 5 Ch. 10 That the same Prophet shews more clearly in the Matter of Jacob the said Person to be Lord, Whom also He calls God, and an Angel of God Most High, in addressing Him.THIS Being who here answers him at such length, you will find, if you read on, to be Lord and God, and the Angel of God, from the words Jacob himself says to his wives: “And the angel of the Lord said to me in sleep,Jacob. And I said, Here am I.” And also: “I have seen, he says, all that Laban doeth to thee. I am the God, that was seen of thee in the place where thou anointedst the pillar for me, and offeredst prayer to me.”
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 5 Ch. 10 Therefore He that said before, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy Father, and the God of Isaac, to whom godly Jacob raises the pillar, was indeed God and Lord: for we must believe that which He Himself says. Not of course the Almighty, but the Second to Him, Who ministers for His Father among men, and brings His Word. Wherefore Jacob here calls Him an Angel: “The Angel of God said to me, speaking in my sleep, ‘ I am the God who was seen by thee in this place.’ ” So the same Being is clearly called the Angel of the Lord, and God and Lord in this place. And by Isaiah the Prophet he is called “Angel of Great Counsel,” as well as God and Ruler and Potentate, where His Incarnation is prophesied in the words: “For unto us a child is born, and to us a son is given, on whose shoulder shall be the rule, and his name shall be called the Angel of Great Counsel, Prince of Peace, the Mighty God, the Potentate, the Father of the Age to Come.”
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 5 Ch. 13 ..clearly shewing that the Almighty God Himself, Who is One, was not seen in His own Person; and that He did not give answers to the fathers, as He did to Moses by an angel, or a fire, or a bush, but “as a sufficient God”: so that the Father was seen by the fathers through the Son, according to His saying in the Gospels, “He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father.” For the knowledge of the Father was revealed in Him and by Him. But in cases when He appeared to save men, He was seen in the human form of the Son,..
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 5 Ch. 15 That it was not an Angel, who gave Answers to Moses, but Some One More Excellent than an Angel. IT will be plain to all that these could not be the words of a mere angel of God. But of what God could they be, but of the One seen by the forefathers, whom Jacob clearly called the Angel of God? And He we know was the Word of God, being called both the Servant of God, and God Himself and Lord.
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 5 Ch. 19 So, then, the command that was given shews that the God Who answered on both occasions was one and the same. Though here He prophesies through the Chief and Captain of His power, and to Moses by the vision of the angel… …what other could be highest of all but the Word of God, His Firstborn Wisdom, His Divine Offspring?Rightly, then, He is here called Chief Captain of the Power of the Lord, as also elsewhere “Angel of Great Counsel,” “Throned with the Father,” “Eternal and Great High Priest.” And it has been proved that the same Being is both Lord and God, and Christ anointed by the Father with the oil of gladness.
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 5 Ch. 28 THIS, too, is like the former prophecies. For the Lord God Himself, the Almighty, says that a Lord will come in His own temple,speaking of another: And He surely means God the Word. And after this also He names Him “the Angel of the Covenant (Malachi 3:1)” of Whom, too, Almighty God teaches that He will Him send forth before His face, saying, “Behold, I send forth my angel before my face.” And this same Being, Whom He has called “My angel,” He calls Lord directly after, and adds, “The Lord shall suddenly come, and the Angel of the Covenant (Malachi 3:1).”
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 5 Ch. 29 HE that has often been named Lord, and God, and Angel, and Chief Captain, Christ and Priest, and Word and Wisdom of God, and Image, this same Being is now called Sun of Righteousness. And we see that the Father that begat Him proclaims that He will rise not on all, but only on those that fear His Name, giving them the light of the Sun of Righteousness as a reward for their fear. He, then, must be God the Word, Who said, “I am the Light of the world”; for He was “the light that lighteth every man coming into the world.”
Eusebius’ “Preparation for the Gospel” Book 7 Ch. 15 “And this Beginning is before all originate things which followed, on which account also they are wont to call it the Image of God, and Power of God, and Wisdom of God, and Word of God, nay further the Great ‘Captain of the host of the Lord,’ and ‘Angel of the great Counsel.’” AnsweringIslam.com
hope this helps !!!
FreeInChrist
Active Member
As you have explained this. there can be no doubt.
Concise with the scriptures that no one can doubt.
Thank you @civic
civic
Active Member
You are welcome. Now if we could just get some of the trins onboard with the Eternal Father/ Son
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Brother,
Beyond helping, it defies me to know how so many of them deny what is clearly expressed right here. (Not that they would read")
Beautifully posted. I am humbled beyond words.
Similar threads
